Gato

Hey Jeremy - Nice to hear from you - rest assured I'll be calling again seeking your counsel! As to your question, I personally believe it has more to do with body position than anything else. If I've gotten 1 thing right, it's the clean arch, and none of deployments have even hinted at a twist. Assuming a tapered canopy is more prone to twist than a square, I wonder if some S/L student rigs are loaded with Sabres or Pilots, as my jumps have so far been on PD300s. Now, I know I only have 3 jumps so far, and as stated before, I don't really know shit. Blissfully Ignorant, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hello Again - I hope this isn't in another thread - I did try to find one. Is there a remarkable difference between the opening of the main at terminal as opposed to the opening during a static line deployment? Any insight would be appreciated. Indigos, Gato T.I.N.S.

*** Let this post serve as a reminder to all other students out there.*** You honor me, Sir. Gato T.I.N.S.

Hello Again, DZ.com Peeps - First, my disclaimer: I only have 3 jumps, all S/L, and I just had my 3rd yesterday, which was my first Practice Ripcord Pull (PRCP). I mention this because I don't want anyone thinking I might know shit about skydiving, and as of right now I'm what you'd call a Parachutist. With a total of 8-9 seconds of less-than-terminal freefall, I'm still kind-of a whuffo. I'd like to admit to all of you that I've made a terrible mistake; I thought if I read everything I could about skydiving, listened to Skydive Radio, and learned all I could about the gear and risks and canopy design and flight plans, I could give myself a bit of a head start. Perhaps you're reading this and thinking the same thing. I WAS WRONG. This kind of investigation is all about content, not direct experience. It is a blind search for information we think will give us a leg-up. It DOES NOT keep you from making the mistakes you see discussed in these forums. It DOES NOT keep you from being scared shitless when you are about to stand on the landing gear of a Cessna 182. It DOES NOT keep you from landing 400 yards from the DZ. It DOES NOT give you an advantage over the other students, much less the experienced jumpers. Now, it MIGHT negate your training. It MIGHT help you set up false expectations about what you'll experience in the air. It MIGHT make you think you're going to be a perfect student with perfect marks in your logbook. It MIGHT give you a false sense of security. It MIGHT make you look like a total ass when you talk to other jumpers, or the DZO (Who is just trying to keep you alive even though he doesn't like you.) So I'm done with DZ.com and Skydive Radio for a while. The best thing I've learned since I started reading and posting here is how little I really know, and I have all of you experienced jumpers to thank. Your perspectives and insights are truly appreciated. The best thing I've learned since I started jumping is that when you are scared out of your mind, and shit is going down (no pun intended) all you have left to work with is what you have physically rehearsed over and over again. The message here is to rely on your training and the methods your instructors give you, because, for instance, knowing that a Samurai may swoop farther than a Crossfire doesn't mean a damn thing when you are waiting for your PD300 to inflate and you don't know where the DZ is. This will be the last thread I post on for a while, at least until I'm off student status (Assuming I get that far.) It's been a lot of fun, and I hope to jump with some of you in the future, but I need to go practice my "arch, reach, and pull" now, so I won't be able to give any of you advice about which canopy to buy . Thank God. Best of the Blue Skies, El Gato T.I.N.S.

Quote Speaking of which...those cockleburrs in your hand? They wouldn't be there if you'd done a PLF... Quote Hey Mike - You got me - I'm busted. Honestly, I followed the radio direction, "3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . . flare flare flare . . . . . stand up." Now I know I have to be prepared for a PLF at any time. Incidentally I meant to post pics yesterday, so here's a few. PLEASE take note of my Easter-egg-colored gay-ass PD300 student parachute, which is the most beautiful canopy I've ever seen. Nothing compares to seeing that expanse of nylon over my head after the bottom dropped out on the world. Also, note the near-perfect ass-slide landing, and the very happy Gato after the 2nd jump. Big-ups and Respect, Gato T.I.N.S.

QuoteSo, Mr. Cat, you have returned to these Sacred Forums. And you have returned not as a whuffo, but as one who has actually left an aircraft in flight. It's quite a bit more intense than reading about it on the internet, isn't it? Congratulations on your jumps. Quote Thanks for your kind words. And yes, reading about it is only about information and content; the experience of skydiving can never be expressed in words or images. To do it, you have to put yourself (your life, not your reputation) at risk and trust a lot of other people. Let them TRY to make a video game do that, and I'll think about buying it. Have a great week & stay frosty - Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey Riggerrob - I agree. It's a little unnerving for me to recognize all of this. No, it's a lot unnerving. A few years ago I read an article in a guitar magazine in which the author desribed the Time Dilation Vortex (If you are a Trekkie, you will know this as Temporal Distrortion.) He explained how a group of players can get so excited onstage that they actually begin to play faster and faster - but they aren't aware of it. The audience is more than aware of it. I teach this stuff to my students. And yet, in this new situation, where my survival is at risk, I froze. I injured myself without any awareness of it whatsoever. The next time I go (if I go) I'll give myself a lot more prep time, and I won't be in a hurry to jump just because the winds are down right now. Slowing Down, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hello DZ Peeps - Well, it finally happened today. After going through the 1st-Jump Course last weekend and getting winded-out, I made my 1st S/L jump at around 10:40am this morning. To be perfectly honest, I don't think anything I could write here could adequately describe how I feel right now. I've had some dinner and a couple of malted-barley pops, and I really want to go have a shower and crash for the evening, but I have to tell someone about this. I know you all need to hear another newbie story like you need fiberglass panties, but I think discussing what lessons I learn AS I learn them may help keep me alive and intact, as well as emotionally solvent. Take today, for instance: 9:15 am - My wife and I arrive at the DZ. My instructor would be the JM, but he's teaching the S/L class today, so after I signed in, I met the JM for my group of 3, Michelle, who is very cool and very smart. We're on for the 1st load of the day, as soon as the winds die down. 10:00 - We get the go ahead, winds are down to 11-12 mph, having gusted earlier between 14 and 19 mph. Before the pilot can give it full throttle for takeoff, they ground us - gusts from 15 - 19 again. 10:35 - We're on again, we're geared-up and off to the races. Since my exit weight is 225lbs, OF COURSE I'm the first one to go. Michelle gave the go ahead, and I'm inching my way out to the wing strut (READ: I'm not moving decisively, taking way too long). I hang too long also. It took me I'd say around 7 or 8 seconds to make myself let go. I'll be completely honest with you all, that was an act that scared the cowboy-shit out of me like nothing else ever has. My arch, deployment, audible sequences, canopy check, and brake unstow were all very good. Slid on my ass for landing, which was pretty cool (fun) actually, since it wasn't painful, even though I wish I could have stood it up. This was due to a less then aggressive-enough flare motion, I was told. After my briefing with the other 2 jumpers and our JM, the owner of the DZ (who guides us down by radio) came up to me and asked me to follow him up to the rigging loft. I won't divulge the exact contents of the conversation, but he basically wanted me to understand why what I had done was so dangerous (Distance from the DZ, my rig possibly opening prematurely and killing all of us with a tail entanglement, etc.) He wasn't a jerk about it, and I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING HE SAID. I'm sure having my class last week and jumping today was a contributing factor in how I basically froze, but I'll make no excuses for myself. Major lesson learned. Second Jump, 45 minutes later: My instructor is the JM with the same 2 other students as before. This time, my climb-out and hang were almost perfect with no hesitations. My canopy, I swear, took an extra second and a half to open, but "Lines, Slider, Square," and I'm cool. Great ride back to the DZ, and I'm feeling the canopy a little more this time. Almost stuck the landing, but I tripped forward a little and stumbled, no damage done. I'm much happier with this ride, with the possible exception of the slower opening. At de-briefing, my JM asks me if I hit my arm on the plane's landing gear. I have no idea what he's talking about, and I have no pain (except the cockleburrs in my right palm) and no visible signs of injury. I get my first logbook and first jump certificate (yawn) and decide I'm done for today. I think two jumps for my first day is plenty for me (I could have had a third, I had the money with me just in case.) So here's the thing: My wife wanted to stop at the Walmart, five miles down the road, and I decide to stay in the car and chill while she's inside. So I'm sitting there in my Grand Am with the AC blasting cool air on me, seat laid back smoking a cigarette, when I notice a little pressure and tightness in my left wrist. I feel around for a moment, and discover I have a little pain - right where the wheel of a Cessna 182 might hit you if you grazed it while dropping away. Holy fucking shit. I'm bruised and I didn't even know it! So here is a series of huge lessons I learned today. Adrenaline and its peripheral effects are NEVER to be ignored. What might have happened if I'd taken a third jump? Did my canopy REALLY take an extra 1 1/2 seconds to inflate on my second jump? Those questions scare me more than dropping off the wing strut of an airplane. I personally would like to thank all of you who take the time to offer your wisdom and insight into this sport, and if I've ever presumed to know more than I really did, I most humbly apologize. Until you have been in these circumstances, you absolutely cannot know shit. Now that I've had most of the shit scared out of me, I'll probably go back next weekend and try to get in 1 or 2 more. Back on the horse. I must offer my humblest thanks to Brian Germain, whose 3rd SKDV Radio interview probably saved my life today. I should have taken more time to mentally prepare for jump #2. This helps in understanding the lack of certainty in making my 3rd jump today - I couldn't know if I was ready! Thanks for taking the time to read this - I'm open to others' ideas on this subject, just as long you don't openly flame on me until you've fully read and understood my posting. Skydiving IS fun, but one could get oneself on a massive sleighride to hell with one tiny fuck-up. Thanks and Tremendo Indigos, ElGato PS. Sorry about the misspelled words and periodic corrections in my post. A couple of pics coming soon. T.I.N.S.

I'll say this one more time: My post was a list of my observations and questions, and nowhere did I judge anyone. I came to a few conclusions based on those observations. My criteria for selection may not be yours. Just so we're ALL clear on this dynamic, here's the difference between Judgement and Opinion: OPINION: "I really don't care for that band, but you might dig it." (READ: I DON'T LIKE IT, BUT IT'S OK IF YOU DO.) JUDGEMENT: "They suck! And you suck for liking them!" (READ: THEY ARE BAD, AND SO ARE YOU.) No one I've ever met is qualified to make the second statement with any authority, myself included. My tiny sample of DZs is all I have to go on. If I'm understanding correctly, I shouldn't be reading any books, or listening to any advice given on DZ.com or Skydive Radio, or taking in any information that would possibly interfere with my training. So maybe I also shouldn't be posting, either, at least until after my first jump, and become worthy. Or will I need to have 30 minutes of FF time first? Happy Blusies, Gato T.I.N.S.

This is the first of many "gut level" decisions he'll need to make, and he's not approaching it with a follow the herd mentality. We need way more of that in the sport. Quote Hey NickD - Thanks for your post and your kind words. I'll post my progress as it occurs. And I'll try my best not to be a hazard waiting to happen. Big-ups and Major Respect to You, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey Remster - Thanks for the vote of confidence. I appreciate it. I'm just stayin' alive, like John Travolta. Like my Dad says, "Every day above ground is a good day." Blueness, El Gato T.I.N.S.

Hello Elisha I hope I won't be difficult - I'm quite spry, you know. Sorry about the slow reply to your greeting. Catching up after putting out fires . . . . . . . Tremendo Indigo, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hello Again Mr2mk1g - I understand what you are saying, it was just an observation about myself. I don't really have a problem trusting instructors, as I'm sure they are intending to keep me safe and alive. I trust my martial arts teachers in the same way. I just want to feel like I belong in the place, and DZ-2 wasn't right for me. You're probably right about jumping there in the future. It's on the way to my home state, and I'd like to have places to jump along the drive. The main reason I posted in this way was to illustrate the importance of exploring all the factors invoved in finding a place to jump, and how you must physically go there to make an informed decision. How people are performing, especially if they were trained there, is an important component of that choice. Sorry about getting loud, it just seems that I get flamed-on whenever I post here, and it seems to happen when people either don't understand what I've said or haven't clearly read what I've written. Later, El Gato T.I.N.S.

Hello - No, I wouldn't be put-off by an EMT or ambulance on the DZ, UNLESS IT'S NOT NORMALLY THERE. My bad satire. I was trying to illustrate how much I don't know. I'm a newbie who doesn't know shit. In other words, I'm ignorant except for what I've seen and OBVIOUSLY I haven't seen it all. Who has? Gato T.I.N.S.

Quote1) Suck it up cupcake, (and I mean that in the nicest possible way). You're simply going to have to accept that your instructor have certain obligations towards you. As an instructor, I can say that the vast majority of instructors are going to undertake those responsabilities with the gravity with which which they should be held. Quote Hello Mr2mk1g - You misunderstood the purpose of my post, twinkie - I wasn't making value judgements. As I said (in my post) they were observations. If you need to pull me down off my high-horse, then go ahead. These were MY observations, based my perspective and personal experience. What I said about death is true. Deny it, and it will surely kill you. Respect it, and you may tell your grandkids about it. This was an observation I made about my own fears and apprehension, and had nothing to do with any instructor obligation. Incidentally, it wasn't just one person with bad landings, or flying badly. And I know enough about how the weather affects skydivers (at a variety of altitudes) to understand why tandems were up and not others. I knew I shouldn't have revealed which DZ I chose. Big-ups and Respect to you All, El Gato T.I.N.S.

Greetings and Salutations - I want to try doing this - I can't think about much else lately, just dreaming about how much fun it could be, and the cool subculture surrounding skydiving. I recently decided to make my first jump, and after checking DZ.com and calling around, I found 2 that are within reasonable distance to my house. Both DZs use S/L as the beginning training methods, which then progress into longer and longer freefall times, and at the end you have between 27 and 30 jumps to qualify for your A rating. For AFF training, I'd have to travel two or three hours, which I just can't do right now. However, gas prices aside, the cost of either method works out to be around the same (Roughly $2000 to an A Licence.) So after checking all this out and physically visiting both places, here are my observations: 1. I'm going to have to trust these people with my life and physical integrity. Death is stalking when you step into and out of the airplane. This is not something to be taken lightly. 2. At DZ-1, there were no S/L students that day (Sat.) and the winds were up high enough to keep the regulars on the ground. Four tandems went up, each with a camera flyer. At DZ-2, also no students (Sun.) and moderate to high winds with low clouds. Three tandems go up with cameras, and two other jumpers who were regulars. Cessna 182s at both. 3. DZ-1 is older and their equipment is not completely up to date (not the latest AADs), but they had a lot of it and it is maintained immaculately by a master rigger. DZ-2 is younger (by quite a bit) and they have their gear sporting Cypress, however I don't know who maintains it and I won't say where it was kept. Not all of this information was volunteered. Hottie at manifest at DZ-2. 4. There were more people at DZ-1 and they have a classroom, a food shack, a heated packing area, and a cool campground. Less people at DZ-2, no food except for 2 vending machines, and part of a small hangar for packing and classes/instruction. There is less than $15 difference between the prices of the 1st jump. Did I mention the rigging loft at DZ-1? 5. The people at both places were nice enough, but DZ-1's staff was welcoming and informative, and made a point of showing me around and letting me see what they'd be strapping me into. I did not feel that DZ-2's staff really gave a damn whether or not I was there. Don't get me wrong - I don't need to be stroked and waited-on; but how do you get new customers, anyway? Service? (Note: I recognize that I went to DZ-2 on a sunday, so maybe this was a result of them partying too much or some exhaustive jumping the day before.) So after seeing all of this, weighing each factor carefully in your mind, which DZ would you choose? Well, my primary concern is still my mortality and body integrity, therefore: I've decided to go where I saw great landings. Where no one was off-heading, in areas where they weren't supposed to be flying. Where people landed on their feet, not their asses or shoulders. Where I didn't see anyone with a limp. Should I tell you which DZ it is? I won't tell the names of the two, but I thank God that DZ-1 will have my business. Gives me a great excuse to go and buy a new tent and Coleman stove. At one time, I thought "I'll be OK with any place that doesn't have an ambulance on the DZ that day." My perspective is so different, now. Please, please, please, when you decide you're going to do this, go visit in person first! There is no substitute for 1st-hand observation, and this is a HUMAN sport, and the humans made the difference for me. Just some food for thought, served lovingly from the rotisserie of my heart and mind . . . . Bluesies, El Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey Butters - I'm starting to regret what I said (I seem to be doing that a lot, lately). I don't mean to come off as a violent guy. This just seemed to me as the antithesis of what is being taught to us, i.e. not moving to a smaller canopy until you're absolutely ready, no wingsuits at 50 jumps, etc. Plus, I've spent the last couple of days defending myself for asking questions about AFF and its safety. The very idea that the unexpected Fruit Loop even exists makes my head hurt. That it was performed on a student at AFF Level 7 is, to me, appalling. I promise, I'm a Peaceful Warrior. But like the drunk sorority girl once said, "Juszz don' pisss me offff!" Big-ups, Gato T.I.N.S.

Thank you, jdunbar - see you up there! Big-ups, Gato T.I.N.S.

So the guy who teaches you "Plan the dive, and dive the plan," suddenly decides to play a prank at a supposedly "safe" altitude? Perhaps we could have an idea of exactly which altitude is the safest for fucking with somebody when falling out of the sky at 120mph? I apologize if I shouldn't pipe-in on this, but I agree with Butters. Friends or not, if you choose to play a joke on someone that puts their life (and possibly yours) at risk, then you should be prepared for the ass-kicking you get when you reach the ground. I would personally stomp a mud-hole in the ass of someone doing this to me (Assuming I'm still alive!), then I'd find another instructor who doesn't need to engage in childish junior high jackass bullshit. Sorry for showing my red-neck. Respect and big-ups to you all. Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey Guys - Thanks for all your input and perspectives. Let me say that it was never my intention to rip on AFF or those who teach it. That is why I told you all that those were others' opinions and views (from face to face meetings, not DZ.com posts) and only the resulting subsequent questions were mine. As I stated in my first post, I am ignorant, a newbie, and a greenhorn. I want to join your sport, and I want to be as safe and alive for as long as possible. I want to make smart, informed, and timely choices. I am not a 19-year-old adrenaline junkie - on the contrary, I'm 39 and deeply aware of my mortality and my lack of ability to heal quickly. I don't have too many choices for training here in KC, but I'll consider everything you all have said. And then I'll listen to who trains me. With deepest respect to you all, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey Reginald - You guessed it - the SL Course progresses into what is called AFP (Advanced Freefall Progression). It's supposed to make use of the AFF syllabus, with more detail and individual attention. Let me stress again at this point that I don't really know shit other than what other people have told me and what I've read online. I am JAFO right now. But I'm no whuffo . . . . I will say that among the few USPA dropzones in the Kansas City area, this is the least expensive path to an A rating I've found. I've heard from a few people about how they've had to retake AFF levels and had to pay the same amount as the one they failed. I wouldn't want to think of that as wasted money (You get to make the jump, after all) but if I'm going to tank on a couple of jumps, I'd rather it didn't cost me $200 per mistake, you know? Any recommendations? Yours, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey Guys - Thanks for your insight - I have always been wary of salesmanship and statistics being used to skew my viewpoint. The main reason I wanted to know this stuff is because I want to be a safe and LIVE skydiver. It just seems to me that much, much more time is spent under canopy than in FF, and I'm interested in how that translates into survivability, if that makes any sense. I'm so glad you all are here to speak with me about this stuff - my wife is growing tired of listening to my recent Dropzone.com anecdotes. Yours, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey DZ Veterans - After speaking with a few different people on the subject of the most common causes of injuries and fatalities, I have a couple of questions and observations I'd like to discuss. Please forgive any forthcoming ignorance, as I'm making my 1st SL jump in a couple of weeks, and this is only my third posting: 1) I was told that the majority of (accidents) happen to AFF-trained skydivers. The same person, a DZ owner, said that the originator of the AFF program did not, in fact, complete the system syllabus before he died. Does this mean that what we know as AFF is incomplete? 2) I was told by another skydiver that it's more important in the beginning phases of training to focus mainly on emergency procedures/exits and canopy flight skills, because free fall is "a gift from God." This person also told me that most people in this sport die under a perfectly operational canopy. Is this true? Any wisdom you could offer will be most appreciated. I apologize if my last question offends anyone teaching AFF - I mean no disrepect. But I don't want to wait until I'm on my way to Earth under a ball of shit before I ask. Yours, Gato T.I.N.S.

Hello Angrypeppers & Skymama - Thanks for the info; I'll probably be ordering one of Brian Germaine's books. I must say, I've never approached a sport that seems as open to new people as skydiving. I'm guessing that it's a result of how seriously you take it - after all, it's life and death, right? Who has time for petty crap under a spinning canopy?? (Just my .02's worth) Thanks again for the warm welcome - this has become my favorite web site! Yours, El Gato T.I.N.S.

Hey Dropzone People - I'm going to make my 1st jump (Static line) in about two weeks, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend some good reading material to help prepare myself for the experience, and the progression to my A licence. Apparently, the bookstores in and around KC don't believe anyone could possibly be interested in skydiving - not even one magazine or book at ANY store! But you can find plenty of books on ICE CLIMBING, though I haven't seen any glaciers aound here. El Gato T.I.N.S.