daremrc

....No, I think you heard what you wanted to hear there. No internet rumor at all, I lived in the area and all of the fun jumpers I jumped with had the same things to say about Eagle Creek, and provided reasons I won't go into here. I qualified that by saying I had not jumped there, so take it with a grain of salt. I have lived in other metro areas with multiple dropzones and had not ever been told, by so many people in so many ways, that they had concerns about such-and-such a place. Did I say 'OMG its a terrible place?' No, I told you what I was told and qualified it with my own lack of experience there. I think anyone who is familiar with SDO would recognize that they put a high premium on following the rules and fostering their students thru the progression. Therefore, given that plus the views expressed by many to me about the 'other' place, I think it would be pretty logical that that is the place the jumper had heard about. Local provincialism or shreds of truth? Dunno. I was just relaying my experience from living in the area a few years back. Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

You gotta be hearing stories about the other DZ, in eagle creek. I have not been to the Eagle Creek DZ personally, but when I lived in the Portland area a while back I heard nothing but bad news about that place. SDO was my home DZ and I worked a little bit for Joe and Theresa doing a few coach jumps. They run a tight, safe ship no doubt with spectacular facilities and aircraft. I've jumped at a dozen or so DZ's all over the continental US and I'd say that their operation has one of the most thorough student programs I've seen. They don't mess around when it comes to training and gear. I wouldn't sweat it, you're in great hands. Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

Awesome. I will, thanks

So... I've been on hiatus from this sport for a while. When I was last jumping a lot, I did all of my logging via Neptune/Paralog. While this worked very well for me and was almost automatic, it seems the software has been updated in the meanwhile and now if I want to use the current Paralog on my Windows 7 machine I need to pay more money. I get the fact that people put work into software and feel they should be reimbursed, however in the event that I lose my neptune in freefall and need another, someone is charging money just to generate a new key for that device. It seems that would be a non-issue if the license for the software included support for all the alti's, however it doesn't.. Anyways, I got my hands on an old copy of the software and I'm back in business, for now... But I was wondering what anyone else might be doing for logging. If I've done my research correctly, it seems that Neptune and Paralog are in bed with one another and you cannot export Neptune data to any other piece of software.. Is that true? How about other alti manufacturers, or has anyone else been able to liberate their skydiving data from an instrument and use it with other, possibly open-source software? Paralog has served me well and the publisher has done a pretty good job about responding to most of the technical hiccups I've had over the years, I just want to know about other options. I originally selected a Neptune 2 because I wanted an alti with digital readout plus the logbook and data-download capability. Are any of the newer altimiters out there providing any similar features? Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

I dislocated mine skateboarding, lived with instability over teh next 10 years and it was livable - except when I found out about skydiving. I was a static line student and on my first 10 second delay it dislocated on opening. I had surgery in November, returned to work and skydiving in March, and now have almost 800 jumps. Get it taken care of, it's worth the wait! For the record I had a labrum tear referred to as a Bankart Lesion and tendon stretching as well due to going many years without surgery. Today, my bad left shoulder definitely feels like it is more restricted than the other one, but I have never had a sensation of it wanting to dislocate post-op. YMMV Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

This is the second thread I can think of where we have someone being told that they may not have the mad skillz that they think they have, and then they pound in. At least Sangi is still around.... Maybe we can make a sticky and hope that these two documented cases convince someone to slow it up a bit... The Setup: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1111481#1111481 The Incident: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346556;search_string=xenia%20;#2346556 Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

Easy man... No need to create an environmet where people are afraid to ask a question because it might be deemed stupid. The guy has 18 jumps and he's asking questions. yes, and at jump 1 he should have an idea what this is already. i'm not saying HE is stupid, i'm questioning his instructors ability, and so have others. it's legitimate! I agree, but he apparently fell thru some cracks and didn't. I don't think any newbies deserve the "Seriously, WTF you don't know xxxx??!?!?!" treatment, that's all. Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

Just wait until you find out what a credit card check is... Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

Easy man... No need to create an environmet where people are afraid to ask a question because it might be deemed stupid. The guy has 18 jumps and he's asking questions. Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

My experince has been that it was specifically the canopy alarms that cause the backlight to go out... If you turn them off beforehand, you should be OK. At least as OK as any battery-powered alti can make you... Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

Bob, that was Lance Kirwin's tandem passenger face-thru-the-peas video and it was great! Anyone have a link that somewhere?? No but it was shown at a film festival recently... Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

I just started with my Coach rating last summer, and I like to remind all of my students of the landing priorities.. Land with the canopy over your head, in an area clear of obstacles, with at least a half-flare and PLF if required. So far they have all been able to recite the pull priorities, but few have recalled those landing priorities without my prompting and review. In the review, I remind them that into the wind, while desirable, is *not* on this list. I see the lack-of-emphasis on canopy skills and control an area that needs to be worked on in regards to our students. I voted 'predictable patterns' and 'hook turns separate', but I would qualify that statement to 90 turn separation, I feel a front-riser 90 is at home in a standard landing pattern as long as the right-of-way/clear airspace of others is considered. Also, I am a personal fan of setting the landing direction on the ground and not playing the first-man-down game but I understand at some locations the wind can change 180 with significant speed in either direction without much notice, so I understand the first-man-down rule... Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

I always like to think of sitflying as "Hey, if we're lucky, we'll get to hold hands and touch each others feet!" Who's got video? Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

The words right outta my mouth... Went from a Pilot to a Crossfire and loved them both.. But we're all just a little prejudiced towards our own brand choices, aren't we?? Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

Not to poop on the party but USPA A license holders need the pin out by 3k, lest we give some internet reading inexperienced person the idea that it's OK for them too (by the rules of our association...) http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section2/tabid/164/Default.aspx#21g just thought I'd add that Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

I moved to the Portland area this past spring and was pleasantly surprised by this DZ. Excellent facilities to include classroom, indoor & outdoor packing, A/C in the licensed jumpers clubhouse, a 200' swoop pond, huge landing area with lots of other outs nearby, and most of all friendly locals and staff that all focus on safety. The Caravans are the fastest I've jumped and no matter what your discipline of choice is, there is someone there that you can jump with and learn from. They are very attentive towards their students as well and provide a great all-around experience. If you're traveling thru, definitely check it out!

I recently bought a Crossfire 2 off the shelf, it is white with yellow ribs/slider. I love flying my new canopy but I have given a few reserve scares with it Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

I learned via S/L and IAD, so I am biased, but I think it is a great method. In my travels, I have found that it seems to be more accepted and in use out east compared to California and Oregon, but that may just be the DZ's I have jumped at. I would love to get an IAD rating and teach the method that I learned, but there's no IAD program in my area to be a part of... Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

Thats right. The video is you-tube quality at best, but I've been impressed by the stills for what they are Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

I'd like to keep the debate over being asked to leave out of this, the only reason I brought it up was to paint an accurate picture of what happened. What I did not come here to do was try to portray this situation in a positive manner towards me and a negative towards the DZO. At the end of the day, I respect the DZO's right to tell me to get lost for any reason he chooses. For the record, I was not attempting to sandbag or hide any information from anyone, this was simply how the planning of our jump played out and it did not occur to me to go ask the DZO or S&TA again if bumping end cells was/wasn't OK. Our personal differences aside, what bothers me about the weekends happenings is that I was told that this is unsafe behavior. It was and still is my position that I don't think that this was a particularity unsafe thing to do, and what I came here looking for was a an experienced group of people who could either correct my misconception or validate my decision process. Seems we have a little bit of both, as I expected. What I have learned thus far is that this is at the very least a grey area and there are regional differences in weather or not this was a good idea. Second, I have learned that my own personal definition of what a CRW jump is needs to be at least re-examined, however that is why I came here and poured the details on the table for people to pick apart: To get educated. Thanks for everyones input, if there is more anyone has to add I'm game to hear it. Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

No. We (DZO, S&TA & I) talked about whether a high altitude h&p would be a good idea if we held south of the drop area, and it was decided it was. The jumper and I then planned the jump and got agreement about it from another instructor-rated jumper at the dz after it was decided that we would bump endcells if everything else went right and the low-time person was comfortable. The conflict came after we landed and we were talking with that same instructor about how the jump went and were overheard. I guess that could have been made more explicit before hand on my part. Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

without getting into the who's & where's.. I wasn't a visiting jumper, per se. I moved to a new state less than a year ago and I considered this place one of my home DZ's for the summer. I put this particular guy out on his clear & pulls at this same DZ back in the spring when he didn't yet have his A license and I was a newly minted coach working for this DZO. Yes, he now is licensed and comes out almost every weekend. We discussed with the management the fact that we were going to do a high altitude hop & pop, so they were aware. We made them aware because they were running two airplanes that day, and we wanted to make sure 1) it was OK for us to plan this jump and 2) make sure the pilots knew that we would be under canopy high, but not in the area that they would potentially drop another load over the top of us. We were about 3/4-1 Mile further into the wind until we came below 4000'. This plan was discussed with and approved by the DZO & S&TA before we took off. The issue that was brought to me was that at 75 jumps, the other jumper was not qualified to do a CRW jump. The DZO then defined the jump that we did as a CRW jump because of the bumping of end cells in particular. They did not define to me at what experience level this would be appropriate, but I think that the recent CRW-related incidents may have played a part in the reaction that we got. I dont personally consider this a CRW jump but again, that's why I'm here trying to get a hold on whetehr or not my perspective or judgment is incorrect. As far as the DZO/management is concerned, I'm not trying to win an argument because I don't think I'll be going back there anyhow, however in light of everything that we planned out I still think that this was a relatively safe jump with the proper conversations about the 'what-if's' ahead of time. It is my feeling that I would go ahead with another jump like this under similar circumstances but that's why I'm trying to bounce this off of others to figure out if I am off base here... Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

So yes, this was a loaded question. Over the weekend I took a jumper with 75 jumps on a full altitude h&p with the intention of close flying. We checked the uppers, planned a holding area upwind of the normal jump operations, and decided that at 4000', we would cease any close flying and head straight back to the normal southern holding area. Before we ever decided we were going to make this jump, we talked about RSL, the fact that he would need to disconnect this, and that if he was uncomfortable with this then we should wait to make this jump. We talked about why our RSLs would be disconnected. We also reviewed what we would do in the event of an entanglement, establishing communication with each other and maintaining altitude awareness while we determine if we can clear the issue or not. I also ensured that this jumper had a hook knife. Besides this, this particular guy has shown to be heads up and has demonstrated the ability to fly his canopy relatively well and land accurately. Finally, after all of this briefing, I told him that I would fly next to him at a canopy's distance, and if we were maintaining the same glide angle and if he felt comfortable, then at that time it would be appropriate for him to slowly drift over and we could touch end cells. I also took Brian Germains class and while I don't recall whether or not we actually bumped endcells there, we absolutely were paired up to do very-close proximity flying so that we could witness the effects of the different control inputs with a frame of reference nearby. Anyhow, suffice it to say that there were others at this particular DZ who made it clear that they thought this was a reckless skydive, while I did not. I do not have a very large number of jumps, but the ones I have made have mainly focused on canopy control on hop & pops, as well as 20-30 jumps just like this one from full altitude. I feel that I was very careful in approaching this situation and covered the bases beforehand, and if this had taken place at my home DZ this would have not really been a big deal. I guess my point is, as a new coach, is my perception of the appropriateness of this jump incorrect? I respect the responsibility of holding this rating and I am trying to figure out if I showed poor judgment here, or if the reaction I've gotten from this was a bit heavy handed. Full disclosure here, I was asked to not return to this DZ after this jump so while I am feeling a bit salty here over the whole thing, I am absolutely interested in hearing any criticism anyone might have about this because in the end I want to check myself against what the rest of the world is doing, even if this is a normal occurrence at the DZ I started at.. Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

In your opinion, is it appropriate for someone with 75 jumps to make a 2-way high-altitude hop & pop where the plan includes close proximity flight and/or the bumping of end cells with an experienced jumper? Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.