Lok

This wasn't a Base fatality, but a paragliding fatality at Greek mountain of Kaimaktsalan. Unfortunately the article is in Greek language: http://www.sky.gr/viewtopic.php?t=1036 F..k reports from the Greek crap media, about base Fatality... Base jumping in Greece does not exist, and skydiving is in low intensity. Felix (for Red Bull advertisement) has done two base jumps, years before, and this was the only base jumping activity in Greece as far as I know. One jump was at Meteora and the other at Corinth canal. http://www.geocities.com/vision_extreme/Base/FelixBaumgartner.htm http://redbull-photofiles.com/Photofiles/PhotofilesModule/ShowImage?imageID=1089716046499-1833405019 http://www.justbeman.de/fitness_sport/extremsport/redbull_corinth/13.html

Ok, thanks guys, maybe I haven't got at this moment much information about HAHO/HALO operations on Iraq and Afghanistan. In next years we learn more about U.S, British, Canadian, Polish and Australian Special Forces operation on Afghanistan and Iraq, through Special Forces operations normally kept secret, until some veteran release some book with war memories. Maybe there was and one successful U.S HALO operation in Panama Channel in 1986 under enemy fire. But still I believe that Helicopter is the best Special Forces tool, even HALO/HAHO technique in some very specific occasions is preferable. As for the SKY RAY with Jet engines, again I believe that will pass a long time before these wings be affordable and can be used successfully by Skydivers and military jumpers. But we can’t compare it with wingsuit flying………because is a rigid wing machine, is like flying a Glider….??just my opinion

Operations in Afghanistan and Iraq could never be compared with MACV-SOG operations in Laos and North Vietnam. U.S.AIR FORCE flew and fly anywhere in Afghanistan and Iraq without detected and without opposition. U.S.Army helicopters can leave and recover Special Forces teams anywhere in these two regions. Where were the enemy lines in Afghanistan or Iraq??? There was report for HALO-HAHO operations in north Iraq where the population was totally friendly in U.S invasion and Kurdish rebels have total control and were trained by U.S Special Forces operators, months before the invasion. In Afghanistan the majority of Special Forces Operators, were operate in conjunction with Northern Alliance teams, and guide U.S.Air Force strikes with Laser pods. The only real HALO/HAHO operations BEHIND ENEMY LINES were those of MACV-SOG in VIETNAM and Rhodesian SAS on Mozambique. Why these operations went wrong????? There are many reasons. In the case of MACV-SOG there was always information leakage before any of the 5 combat HALO jumps conducted in this era. There was much talk about a mysterious (never found) MACV-SOG South Vietnamese operator (traitor) that was passing information on communist VIETCONG. There was always North Vietnamese rebels waiting on various possible landing zones of HALO team!!!! There was always more than 40 North Vietnam operational radar and various ground to-air missile positions and 1000sands of antiaircraft guns. North Vietnam Air Force had more than 240 operational MiG 17-19-21 interceptors (Supplied by USSR). The weather Conditions were the worst, many times during the jumps start raining… The landing zones were very small and too difficult to locate even were mainly HALO jumps and not HAHO. There is no comparison between the Combat HALO jumps conducted by MACV-SOG in Vietnam era and anything else. Those were real HALO-HAHO jumps BEHIND enemy lines for the main purpose of HALO-HAHO operations who is the Long Range Recon Patrol behind enemy lines. Helicopter proved that is much safer method to infiltrate and recover LRRP teams.

Greek Air Force (HAF-Hellenic air Force) had in operation from 1944 88 C-47 (military version of DC-3). Today they are still 3 C-47 operational (one Korean War veteran!!!!). They were always used as paratroopers jump ships and for military Free-fall parachuting. On 1979 the best instructor of Greek army parachute school rent one C-47 from Air Force and start skydiving activities on MEGARA drop zone. This appears to be the first attempt for civilian skydiving activities in Greece. http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2002/dakota/dakota.htm http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2002/dakota/kk156.htm http://www.haf.gr/en/media/item.asp?id=34 http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0669710&size=L http://hafcphotos.cs.net/photo_viewer_detail.cfm?photoid=179816 operations during Korean war: http://koti.welho.com/msolanak/koreaengl.html PARATROOPERS: http://koti.welho.com/msolanak/alexip.html

In my opinion there are many reasons, that these wings haven’t anything to offer for Special Forces Operations. At this point I totally agree to what Loudiamond, SWATCOP and Zipp0 said before. First of all the only reason these wings could be used is as alternative to today HAHO operations (not HALO). HALO/HAHO parachuting has seen little combat action from 1960..... Practically the only real action behind enemy lines was that of MACV-SOG on VIETNAM and Rhodesian SAS on the bush war 1970-80 in Mozambique, and were only HALO operations ....the majority of which were unsuccessful. That hasn’t anything to do with brave operators of US and Rhodesian Special Forces but for other factors that went wrong. I have done my national service in Special Forces, and what I remember? Is that HAHO exercises every time went wrong? It was particular difficult for a 4 men team to keep contact in Night and with weather condition changed continuously, nearly impossible both 4 team members land in the same Landing area with little separation between them. And all Special Forces operators, in now days have GPS and multiple compass systems to always check their route......but as I said weather and wind conditions on various altitudes play significant role for the success of the operation. So I believe that with these wings with Jet engines, would be impossible for a recon team To infiltrate with precision behind enemy lines, 200km away from the exit point. Sometimes supersophisticate modern Fighter aircrafts make wrong navigation on a 200km range target (on combat situation). I can’t understand how a parachutist could navigate this thing with precision on night and close with other team members? Also this would be superexpensive method for 4 men recon team to go behind enemy lines, through these wings (with jet engines) immediately after landing must be destroyed so the enemy could not find them. For mass dropping again is financially impossible to drop one battalion of paratroopers with these wings and the same happens with Civilian Jumpers (Skydivers). I must say also that HAHO/HALO technique-training is used today mainly as an experience and ‘built of character’ for Special Forces team around the world, rather than an infiltration technique. Helicopter Low altitude operation is the most secure infiltration and recovery technique for special forces today…..and the revolution in this sector will came with the introduction in service of tilt-rotor aircraft V-22 (which only the U.S.S.O.COM and MARINE corps are financially capable to acquit at the moment). Military parachuting will continue to exist as low altitude 300-900ft (LALO) mass dropping operations from DC-3, C-27, C-160, C-130, C-17 and other military Jump ships. HAHO/HALO technique may see some improvement in the future with the new TANDEM military systems, which help one 4 men team to infiltrate with only two parachutes, and is not necessary both 4-men team to be qualified in Free-Fall. http://www.skydivewithjohn.com/word_docs/History%20of%20HALO%20Operations.doc http://www.recipeland.com:8080/facts/images/1/1e/HALO_Jump_Congo_Packman_Yuma_Proving_Ground_%28thumbnail%29.jpg http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=702883&postcount=1 http://www.batnet.com/mfwright/miljump.html

http://www.janes.com/press/articles/pc060526_1.shtml

My instructor MILKO, save my life several times and spent a lot of his time, train me in ground and air, so I definitely be f...ing stable and keep me in Skydiving. David and Angela Hickling and all Staff and local jumpers at Langar, UK the most brilliant people I ever met.

Hello to everybody, I’ll try to explain you the situation over Aegean Sea. Sorry about my English, but I’ll try to do my best. The Greek airspace is 10 miles and the sea space is 6 miles. This is not what Greece say but what both Greece and turkey have signed during international agreement years before (before World War 2). This is really quite strange through all the countries in the world has the same miles on both sea and airspace. But that doesn’t matter through there is an agreement that have signed both countries. That means: in Greek coastline and around all Greek islands there is 6 miles sea space and 10 miles airspace under Greek control. turkish for THEIR OWN reasons forget the agreement they had sign and now speaking for only 6 miles Greek airspace. This is the legal part of the problem. (Keep in mind that Greece has the right from the international law court (law about the sea of 1982) to increase his airspace and sea space at 12 miles, at any time, but turkey has officially said that if Greece increases the airspace and sea space to 12 miles, that would be the start of the war over AEGEAN!!!!! (CASUS BELLI!!!!). The real problem is that turkey after 1974 when without any right invaded the island of Cyprus (with 82% Greek population), starts also to looking at the Aegean Sea……many times in the near past the turkish generals ( the real government of this country) claimed half of the Aegean Sea with more than 20 major Greek islands would be turkish!!!!!!! Even there isn’t ONE tURKISH leaved in the Aegean Sea islands and even Aegean Sea islands are Greek for over 4000 years!!!!!!! That the real problem (turkish offence tactic) and not the 6 miles or 10 miles Greek Airspace. turkish air force fighter violent Greek Airspace constantly from 1980 and after with 100ndres of mock dogfights take place every year between Hellenic (Greek) AIR FORCE Combat fighters and turkish jets. For this reason Greece has developed constantly from 1974 and after its Air Force to one of the best in the world, keeping in 24 hours alert its interceptors on just 5 minutes take off. (Sometimes 2 minutes alert!!! the pilot waiting for scramble inside the aircraft). Their pilots are among the best in the world with over 200 flight hours every year + 100ndred of winning mock dogfights over Aegean and total air superiority. Billion of Dollars had spend on the past 35 years for hundred of modern fighters, equipment , radars, armament and training+ 1 billion dollar every year for just the additional fuel required for the mock dogfights and alert of Greek Air-force ( turkish have the opportunity to violent Greek air space at the time and place who they select, Greek Air force must be on alert all the time and this is super expensive for little country like Greece) Now speaking of today’s ‘accident’ the turkish as usual violent the Athens FIR without any flight plan (very dangerous for civil aviation also) and flew over Greek islands (f..k the 6 miles story), the formation was a turkish RF-4E ( reckon edition of F-4 Phantom) and a pair of turkish F-16, the Hellenic air force scramble two F-16 to intercepted the turkish fighters…. During the following Dog Fight the Greek F-16 took the tail of turkish F-16 and the two fighters come two close. (Keep in mind that Greek Air Force fighters during dog fights with turkish intruders usually come two close so the photo-machine guns can take close photos of turkish fighters and their numbers and insignia. Consequently Greece Ministry of foreign can make denunciation on NATO or other international organizations with documents). That was the point when the turkish stupid pilot make the mistake and during crap turning, (at his effort to brake the lock) and hit the Greek fighter at 27.000ft. First who saw the accident was an Egyptian airliner pilot flying at 34.000ft who report on Greek air space controllers that saw a blast (according to him about 2000ft lower than his flight level). This is the number six well known ‘accident’ between turkish and Greek air force over AEGEAN in the past 35 years. The first was in 1974 Cyprus crisis, you can find more here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1652850&postcount=115 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1652628&postcount=104 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1651721&postcount=99 Also another turkish F-4E and F-16 were shot down during mock dog-fights with Greek fighters on 1994 in two separate accidents and also a turkish F-16D on 1996 shouted down by a Greek Mirage 2000 in the only known ‘accident’ in peace when Greek fighter make use of air-to-air missiles…..more about this here: 4 Turkish F-4Es from 112 Seytan filo based in Eskisehir was on CAP training mission over Aegean. As usual, 2 Greek Mirage 2000s took off from their forward base and turned towards F-4Es. At the same time, another 2 Turkish F-16s (one C and one D) were on a training mission near F-4Es too and "were not armed" that time. the Turkish ground controller directed these 2 F-16s towards Greek Mirage 2000s to intercept them before the Mirage 2000s reach F-4Es. As usual, 2 side merged and dogfight started, little later it turn to 1 on 1 engagement. The Turkish F-16D piloted by Captain Nail Erdogan engaged with 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas. The back seater in Turkish F-16D was Col Cemil Cicekli just returned from 2 years of military attache duty in UK and was in refresher trainig with squadron IP Captain Nail Erdogan. After trying to gain advantage on each other, in a head on pass, Grivas fired a Magic II and shot F-16D. It caused an explosion and put F-16D in fire ball. Force of the explosion forced Col Cemil Cicekli out of cockpit without pulling ejection handle, Captain Nail Erdogan did not have time to eject and was probably killed instantly. The F-16D crashed 10 miles off Chios island (Greek area) and Col Cemil Cicekli rescued by Greek SAR helo. Col Cemil Cicekli was in a shock after the incident and did not talk to Greeks too much. Strangely, Greeks thought he can not be Turkish since he speaks good English, someone (HAF officers) in Greece claimed he could be a IDF pilot in squadron exchange program. This whole incident went to AFM and discussed several times in the past. After Col Cemil Cicekli returned to Turkey, he said that 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas visited him in the hospital. Greeks claimed that F-16D was violating Greek air space and 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas have had right to fire. But air space violations are two sided, sometimes HAF also violates Turkish national air space. It happened in the past and it can happen in the future too. IF ROE is applied, every single interception can turn bloody and each side can fire... but fortunatley this did not happened in the past, will not happen in the future too. Usual encounters in Aegean are just to show off pilot skills to other side and go home..." "...Family of ‘downed’ Turk to sue. ANKARA (AFP) - Relatives of a Turkish air force pilot killed in 1996 when his jet was lost over the Aegean Sea want compensation from Greece, which they accuse of downing the plane, the family’s lawyer said yesterday. On October 8, 1996, Turkey announced the loss of an F-16 during an Aegean training mission, in what Ankara said was international air space north of Samos. One of the pilots managed to eject and was rescued, but the other, Captain Nail Erdogan, 35, was killed. The Turkish Milliyet daily recently quoted a former air force chief, General Ahmet Corekci, as saying the plane was downed by a missile fired by a Greek fighter. Athens has denied this. 'The right to life was violated... to obtain moral and material compensation we shall shortly be bringing an action against Greece' before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, Mehmet Emin Keles told AFP. He said the suit would also seek recovery of Erdogan’s plane and body from the sea. Yesterday, Turkish press reports said Erdogan’s family would be asking for 2 trillion Turkish liras (just over a million euros) in compensation...." Also a movie of real engagement (mock dogfight) from a Greek Air Force F-16 hud ( head-up-display) http://www.haf.gr/media/hud_1.wmv Today another Greek pilot lost his life. He was a father of a 1.5 years old son and 5 years old daughter. Tribute and Honor to Hellenic air Force pilots who lost their life, defend their country. http://www.haf.gr/media/skyhigh.wmv http://www.haf.gr/media/HAFAniversaryPlanes.wmv

http://www.lastrefuge.co.uk/images/html/imax_skydive/image_html/IMAX_skydiving02.html http://www-leibniz.imag.fr/ATINF/Gilles.Defourneaux/Deug/deug.html http://www.starduststudios.com/Skydiving.htm

How would be this sport today without Patrick De Gayardon's time???