djvelour

Hiya all! I am currently doing some research on an article I plan on writing for Parachutist Magazine. Does anyone have access to old copies of CanPara Magazine (the official mag of the Canadian Sport Parachute Association)? In particular I am looking for 1984-era issues. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me out! Blue Skies ~Sammy~

Although this sounds like a good idea, I am not too sure as to the legality of it. To the best of my knowledge private businesses cannot "fine" individuals without an express written agreement, at most they can refuse to render services (in this case a ride to altitude). In order for a business to in any way be empowered to level a monetary fine upon an individual that individual would certainly have to sign an agreement empowering said business to do so (by example professional athletes almost always work under a collectively bargained agreement that allows the employer to levy monetary fines). So in order And what if the skydiver refused to pay? Obviously the DZO could prohibit their jumping but good luck trying to make them pay, they would have to prove in a court of law that the person a) violated DZ policy and, b) willingly consented to being fined for any violations of said policy. And what sort of appeal system would be put into place? Every other (non-government) entity that has the power to levy fines also has set up a system to appeal said fines (so that each question over a violation doesn't end in a lawsuit). I am not sure if any such system would be legal without such checks and balances, but it certainly would not be fair without such a check. Additionally, the more responsibility that a DZ chooses to take on, the more liability that DZ incurs when those safety measures aren't properly enforced. It sounds illogical but a DZ likely would not incur liability from failing to ground a person performing dangerous HP landings if they had not SOP to do so but if that same DZ had a policy to ground people and they fail to act and subsequently someone was injured, they could then potentially be held responsible. So I kind of doubt that DZs would want to have the extra headaches, legal hassles and liability that would result from such a system. As others have said, truly before we start talking about fines or other ways to make people follow the rules we actually need to ACTIVELY enforce the rules we have using the means at our disposal (i.e. refusal of service/USPA ban). ~Sammy~

According to his wiki page, Loic Jean-Albert was working on an attempt back in 2007.... ~~Sammy

[reply If they sign the form, then unless there is neglegence, I am covered, if I was neglegent, maybe I deserve aq lawsuit... whats the biggie. No need to stop doing everything because of fear of something going wrong. Might as well stop doing everything with any risk then... All moral issues aside, what the legal issues we are arguing about are as follows: In the U.S. a waiver signed by a minor is completely invalid. There is no circumstances whatsoever where a minor or his/her representatives can sign away his/her rights (unless they are legally emancipated in which case they are no longer technically a minor). This was not always the case but cases came before the courts which caused the Courts to change their opinions in this regard. I have no idea about NZ law in regards to waivers and minors, perhaps as you suggest, a minor my legally sign his/her rights away (I strenuously suggest you make sure, if you have not done so already). However even if the law currently allows a minor to sign a waiver, that still does not mean that will always be the case. While the general public may be accepting of an injury to a 10-year-old injured or killed in day care or some other similarly innocuous activity, the general public (and by extension the Courts) would be FAR less receptive to a fatality involving skydiving. In such a situation you may very well find that your waiver is meaningless, despite any previous laws to the contrary. Laws evolve. Without getting into a moral debate, look at how many skydivers seem to be reacting negatively to even the idea of a 10-year-old skydiving. How do you think the general public and the Courts would react to a real incident? Not favorably. Even were laws in NZ in existence acknowledging the power of minors to sign waivers, a fatality involving a 10-year-old tandem may very well cause a seed change for any such waiver regulations. Additionally, though it is unlikely, even if a NZ court found your waiver to be legally valid, a U.S. court would not recognize the waiver as valid. This is the main point we have been trying to make and why the U.S. based manufacturers are so deathly afraid of underage tandems anywhere. Yes you may be able to evade financial responsibility in NZ via your waiver, but that doesn't mean that the manufacturers can. If that 10-year-old died, that waiver would be useless in a U.S. court of law, and the manufacturer could be held responsible for your choice to allow a minor to skydive. There would not need to be negligent conduct for the victims to sue the U.S. based manufacturers. Which is why I posed the question earlier...do you want to be the TI that killed tandem skydiving? True, the comment was a bit bombastic, but I believe the point to nonetheless be valid. A single bad lawsuit as a result of a DZ that permits underage tandems ANYWHERE could kill a manufacturer. This is what the manufacturers are deathly afraid of. This is why they went to the trouble and expense to try to get the word out about this issue. There have been many discussions of the ills of the DZ which cater solely to tandems, ie tandem "factories", but regardless the tandem jump has been very beneficial to our sport. Given that there are relatively few manufacturers and they are so afraid of this issue, we would do wise to take their concerns seriously. Personally I consider this more important than a normal safety bulletin from the tandem manufacturers, as normally the safety issues discussed are minor and probably don't threaten but an extremely small percentage of the tandem jumping public (though they too should be heeded). This could potentially end tandem jumping alogether. Finally, the last thing I wanted to add which has not been discussed, is the negative publicity involved if an accident involving a young minor were to occur. I hope you realize that while taking a 10-year-old makes for a great and heartfelt story when all goes well, quite the opposite would occur should he/she be injured/killed. In addition to the tremendous amount of negative publicity it would generate towards the sport in general, your center would likely be blitzed by many media ppl asking many questions. Whereas a normal tandem fatality, while sad may go unnoticed by the general public, such will likely not be the case if a 10-year-old were to go in. Though I personally do not believe that most 10-year-olds cannot adequately gauge the consequences of their actions, you certainly can. I hope you realize all of these additional responsibilities you are choosing to incur by allowing pre-pubescent children to skydive. BTW, despite your rude personal email, I too wish you luck in your fledgling DZ. I know how hard it can be to start a new business and the work, stress, and love which goes into it. Truly...best of luck in that regards. Other than this one issue it sounds like you are trying do everything the best you possibly can...and even in this issue you are willing to have a dialogue...blue skies. -Sammy

First, almost all of the activities mentioned above have faced multiple lawsuits from minors who were injured during operation. In a court of law minors are treated very differently and as a result those defendants were placed at a greater disadvantage than if they were being tried for the injury of an adult. Perhaps more importantly, the are two big differences between those activities and Tandem skydiving, which those benefiting from tandem jumping best be aware of or risk losing the right to tandem... a) Skydiving entities have no insurance whatsoever. The manufacturer/operators of airliners/cars/boats etc all have very good insurers with even better lawyers. They can afford to settle the cases they deem un-winnable and litigate the hell out of the ones they think they can win. In contrast as there are only a few tandem rig manufacturers, none of which have insurance, a few lawsuits could effectively end the entire tandem industry. Perhaps if there are no lawsuits for a significant period of time then in time insurance companies will see the benefits of insuring tandem manufacturers. However, an instant way to lose a lawsuit (at least in the U.S.) is to injure a minor. There is no way for a minor or their representatives to waive their rights away, so if you so much as scratch that 10-year-old here in the U.S., he can sue you and the manufacturer. Would you want to be known as the TI that ended tandem jumping world wide? b) Tandem jumping is a new sport. I once spoke to a park ranger about why BASE jumping with a permit wasn't legal but rock climbing without one was legal, and his response was...time. He said if rock climbing were evolving right now as a brand new sport the park service would likely be regulating the hell out of it and preventing it. The same goes for a lot of the activities which we currently enjoy. They are all "grandfathered" in. Tandem jumping is afforded no such luxury as it is relatively new in the pantheon of activities. In time tandem skydiving will be established and perhaps the boundaries will be expanded as the morays and values of our society evolve and change. However, as our society currently exists, tandem jumping is not receptive to underage jumping...as the manufacturers themselves have clearly stated. -Sammy

It doesn't work that way and the fact that you think it does shows how little you understand (despite your claims) about the U.S. legal system. Yeah like when your greed for tandem jumping dollars is so great that you ignore common sense and take a 10 year old up skydiving. If you don't see any problems with underage skydiving, why not a 2-year old...or an infant? As long as the parent says it's alright it's apparently fine by you.... You seem to ignore that we are dealing with 2 different arguments here: a) The tandem manufacturers are placed at substantial risk REGARDLESS of any licensing they may perform. The tandem manufacturers are the entities that facilitate tandem skydiving. Without the rig manufacturers it could not exist. With any product there is an assumed warranty. With products such as tandem rigs, scuba rigs, etc that warranty (for better or worse) can extend to the actions of those utilizing that gear (particularly for commercial purposes). The same thing exists with other entities in the skydiving world. For instance, a wingsuit manufacturer could be held liable for selling an advanced wingsuit to someone without any skydiving experience. b) you apparently seem intent to ignore ANY possible moral questions WHATSOEVER regarding underage skydiving. What if that 10-year old had died tandeming? When any skydiver goes in it's bad...had a 10-year old gone it it would have been an utter tragedy. Those of us making this emotional plea cannot fathom your lack of concern for the well-being of the child. Do you honestly believe that the 10-year-old had a rational ability to accurately gauge the potential risks in skydiving and make a decision to jump nonetheless. No. It looked fun, his parents apparently said he could do it, so he did it. Insanity is throwing 10-year-old kids out of airplanes....I am glad my country IS sane. In closing I would like to repeat a point that NOBODY has refuted...There is no reason a healthy child cannot wait a few years to skydive. End of story. Impatience kills.

I agree with you that doing a tandem jump is different in that a tandem jumper generally has little to no impact in the successful outcome of a skydive. However, I would also posit that if one would not consider a child responsible/accountable enough to undergo AFF training, then how responsible/accountable can their decision to make a tandem jump really be? Can most 10 year olds truly understand the risks they are choosing to incur in making a tandem skydive? I guess my question is if one cannot trust a minor to make rational and competent decisions regarding emergency procedures, can one trust that same minor to make a rational and competent decision in choosing to risk making a tandem skydive? It's just my opinion, but personally I don't think so (and neither does the U.S. gov, for better or for worse). -Sammy

Truly I can begin to understand your viewpoint. As the proud father of an amazing 14 year old, I am constantly surprised by her maturity and ability to handle complex (both physically and emotionally) situations. However I also recognize that authorities with infinitely more combined experience than I, have determined that underage skydivers (both tandem and solo) is not a) good for the sport b) good for the minor Above and beyond the lawsuits of tandem manufacturers, the USPA has long been unwilling to recognize and support underage skydiving. Though this is in part due to fears of litigation, the USPA's fears are also grounded in true safety concerns. Even if one were to concede the point that it should/could be ok for a parent to dictate the readiness of their child to skydive it begs the question how young is too young. I think almost all would agree that a 5-year old is much too young to tandem/solo, as a child at that age has no reasonable capacity to understand the long-term consequences of his/her actions. So perhaps if I feel my 14-year old is particularly equipped to tandem/solo...she should be permitted? I say tandem/solo, because really we are talking about the same thing. Either way the child is placing their life in the hands of the fabric above their heads. Without doubt a certain part of me applauds you for introducing a young 10-year old to the amazing world we have witnessed, but I have question for you which I believe cuts ultimately to the point of whether minors should be allowed to tandem. Would you have allowed the young 10-year old Soheil to AFF train and eventually permit him to solo jump as a 10-year old? I could be wrong, but I would guess that even you would say that he is too young to solo (if a rig and parachute could even be made...but dammit it would be cute as hell). And if he is too young to solo, should he really be tandem jumping? (Though this does not apply in AU) Point being, as far as waivers are concerned, and therefore skydiving, a parent cannot be the arbiter of his/her own child's maturity level. The U.S. government has dictated the age of maturity in most cases to be 18. Certainly there are mature children who could likely "handle" skydiving. Exceptions to the rules exist, and they may be disadvantaged and have to wait as a result, but to allow any other system would be to invite free form chaos. I have yet to hear of any credible argument as to why a healthy 15 or 16 year old cannot wait a couple of years to skydive. -Sammy

What I believe people fail to recognize when discussing this thread, is the role of our own government in this issue. Whether you like it or not, as a parent you are not the only one legally responsible for the well-being of your child...the U.S. government has also determined that they share responsibility for all citizens under the age of moral majority. The classic case involves parents who for religious reasons choose to fore go modern medical treatment. In these cases the government will sometimes force medical treatment for the well-being of the child and in extreme cases charge the parents with child endangerment. Despite the parents freedom of religion, the state's responsibility to care for citizens that might not otherwise be in a position to protect themselves supersedes. One must only look to that horrible video of a five-year old skydiving to see exactly why this is the case. You as a parent may wish to take your child skydiving, but as our society has evolved, the government has determined it has a responsibility to protect minors....even if it means protecting them from their own parents. Just as the government has a right (responsibility) to remove a child from an unsafe situation created by a crack-mother, the government has the legal authority to dictate which actions may be deemed improper for minors. It is for that reason that waivers will likely never apply to those under the age of moral majority and why they should not skydive. Yes they may be capable of skydiving, but the government basically does not recognize them as such. Truly the equipment manufacturers have more to worry about than simply civil liability lawsuits, for if an minor was injured or killed, potentially all parties could be charged with child endangerment. If that 5 year old died in tandem, everyone any way connected would be arrested immediately...and as far as the law is concerned there is no difference between a 5 year old and a 15 year old. As a personal aside, I find the attitude of parents who think they know better than the USPA, government, manufacturers, etc to be truly disgusting. There is no good reason whatsoever (other than a dying child) that the minor can't wait a couple years to make a skydive. Impatience can kill. Your child's life is not your possession, it is your responsibility. -Sammy

Hey all! I was just reading the “Gearing Up” section of the latest Parachutist Mag, and it mentioned a new pilot training syllabus/aircraft-op manual written by the USPA with the aid of Chris Schindler (DiverDriver) and Ray Ferrell. I tried looking on the USPA website but couldn't find a copy of it, anyone know where a copy of it is online? -Sammy

You mean, other than providing, for about 40 years, places to jump that drew and draw thousands of people from all over the world to take advantage of airplanes that go up and down all day every day it's even marginally jumpable, at prices that can't be beat, and a real safety record (not FAA compliance record) per million jumps made that is equal to or better than any of the very few DZOs in the world whose operations can match his cumulative DZ jump totals? Actually he has one of if not THE worst safety records in the business. He has had 10 fatalities in the past 10 years...in the 10 years prior to that...10 fatalities! (and yes I can provide the proof for that if needed) He has averaged a death a year at his drop zone for the past 20 years. I can't think of another drop zone that comes anywhere close (note that I am NOT counting aircraft crashes where multiple skydivers die at once). That's not even including all the people he has had slam into electrical wires, the people who have had their legs amputated because they had less than 25 jumps and Bill allowed them to be jumping with another sub-25 jumper (USPA chastised Bill for that one), nor all the other "incidents" that seem to plague his center. To the best of my knowledge Bill Dause has done nothing for the sport but provide CHEAP tickets, which is why people love him (that and he doesn't require re-currency jumps, or waivers, current reserves or really make any safety mandates whatsoever). Please don't make him out to be Bill Booth or Lew Sanborn...true pioneers who have worked diligently to contribute to the safety and beauty of our sport. Oh I forgot, Bill invented the skyhook or was it the three-ring release system, oh no my bad....it was the pilot chute that Bill invented. Didn't you know Bill invented tracking too. We are all too blessed! Where would we be without his amazing contributions! If he had done SOOO much for our sport he would have awards and been recognized as a "pioneer" and a "contributor" but those articles and awards don't exist because all that he has supposedly "done" to help the sport is as ficticious as his MX records. So far numerous people have asked "What has Bill done for the sport of skydiving?" and what was your response.... I'm sorry Bill's 30,000+ jumps (if in fact he did that many) did not CONTRIBUTE to the sport. All he did was perform a bunch of skydives. I generally don't give a damn if my DZO has or hasn't logged 30,000 jumps (by the way, to my knowledge Bill does NOT have his jumps counter-sogned and if so his logs are every bit as BS as your skygod's books). I am much more interested in the DZO's commitment to provide a safe environment then how many skydives he has made. Just because the man has done a ton of jumps (and nobody disputes that) does not mean he automatically deserves our respect in all things skydiving. Other than cheap tickets and providing an (unsafe) place to skydive for several decades, he has done nothing for this sport as far as I can tell. If I am selling the man short, correct me...explain to me how he has actually IMPROVED our sport in any meaningful way. *** Edit ********** Bill was only a regional director...and only that for about two or three years back in the mid-70's. As to the R&D board he was on, yes the board may have done something what did Bill do during that time period? It was my understanding that during that period of time, Bill wasn't very involved with the USPA even though he was a director (in fact I know he used to never even bother to send in his photo or bio for voting) which is why he only was a director for a couple years. By your definition anyone who has ever been a director has given a tremendous amount back to the sport. If you look back at that period, I remember Bill writing several letters complaining about the USPA, the insurance program, the group member program (a bit later), and basically attempting to be an obstructionist. -Sammy

Does anyone know the total number of jumps in the WORLD each year? How man civilian jumps annually? How many military? Also does anyone have any longitudinal data...I would love to know how worldwide civilian and military jumping has waxed and waned over the years (and any historical correllations that could be made). Thanks in advance guys & gals -Christian

And the Genius award in the field of History is given to.... Kallend! Thanks for all the help, and once for all settling this argument between my friend and I...in my favor. Those were all the stats I wanted and then some...its amazing how hard it is to find a web page with just the stats you typed in...ohhhh if only ruled the world. You da man Kallend! -Christian

A fellow skydiver and I need to settle an argument. Exactly how many paratroopers were dropped on D-day in total (on both sides)? The best I could find after a bit of a search of the web was that it looks like maybe 3 divisions (2 US and 1 British) were dropped. Which begs the question, were WW2 airborne divisions the same size as WW2 infantry divisions...