Zahry

I'm not so partial on their elastic stowing system either. What is the mbs of that elastic shock cord? What's it's maximum breaking strength?

It looks like the system is packed for use - WHY ??? if there are closing loop fibers on the SHARP end of the housing = Grounded system. The closing loop itself looks out of service too. If the housing or any housing on a parachute does NOT have the rounded finish metal cover end it should not be used - see all housing in use on parachutes Sport & Military. Did you informed SE about that ? or it came up only after the CZ fatality? You also said that SE report show some ??? does the TI involved in the fatality was a DHT TI ? All time you are pointing on unsafe & risky points on the DHT you should STOP rig & jump the DHT's at your DZ - stay behind your words. Again, did you ever reported SE about all the points you came up with ???? Be Safe !!!

Maybe about month ago before the accident I've heard there were some negotiations between SE and Jojowings to make DHT and HOP330 legal. I'll try to find out more

If anyone thinks there is nothing wrong with the system. Here are some photos of the disputed design. The parts were inspected on friday (25 jump check) and since the inspection we did 7!!! jumps only on the equipment. During the inspection there was no visible damage to the loop, plastic, housing or the stitching. Today morning when I did few random checks I've discovered the damage. What you see on the photos is the housing cutting its way out through the plastic. How does it happen? The 3 ring system in certain configuration in freefall can push the housing into the plastic. The housings are mostly improperly finished (just cut with exposed sharp edge - every single one I ever seen is almost the same - some worst, some better) and when pushed into the plastic the vibrations from drogue can help cut it its way through. And if there is rough sharp edge (just like in our case here) it goes through like a chainsaw. On the Detail you can see bit of the loop still caught on the rough edge. It looks to me not just like only one design flaw but a whole bunch together. This rig has about 1 500 jumps and the housing was changed 3 months ago (the numbers are from top of my head - the exact numbers are recorded in maintenance book @ DZ. If anyone is interested I can provide the exact number of jumps, mothly average and DOM) I think the same thing in worst stage killed the czech tandem pair. When I've asked czech autorities about the other two accidents Tom mentioned I've discovered there was only one accident involving housing on risers jamming cuttaway (TM cutted the riser loop) and nobody knew anything about the other two accidents Tom mentioned in this forum. - maybe it was just misunderstanding and it happened somewhere else ... but there are other disconcerting fact. I found out the reserve packing card has been provided to Ted and Ted has been reminded he has seen it before publishing his press realease - and than he stated he hasn't seen it (you can check it with czech autorities as well just like me) So, can I trust the rest of it what the SE says? Also, I was unable to find where the DHT manual states the owner must keep inspection and maintenance records other than usually found in reserve packing card. (I was unable to find where it states the rig has to be sent back to strong after 8 years as well - but it might be just my fast reading ...)

Hi, here are the pics. Because the DHT "reserve" is practically just another main canopy the packjob itself is VERY easy.

Hi guys, I appreciate what you are saying. I agree Strong has one of the best customer services over the world - full stop. I agree and appreciate back in the day they vastly improved the safety of tandem skydiving (Ted was the guy who started the whole thing if my knowledge is right). So I guess you might wonder why I'm poking into things like that. The reason is Teds Press Release about the last accident. He torn the guys to pieces (with grace and beauty) but nevertheless he literary thrown 100% of all that sh.. on their heads and walked away with SE sparkling and shining as a diamond. (As my friend explained me now, that's quite common practise in states and it is something to do with so many hungry lawyers there). The thing is - most of the world is outside states and they don't have to necessarily know or care about how it works there (revert the sides if necessary and you'll find you are not different). Unfortunately lot of people took the Press Release seriously as a final report and they think the case is closed. No - it isn't. The properly investigated official report hasn't been released yet. Just for curiosity - revert the sides. Imagine if the same accident has happened in states on Czech equipment. How would the press release looked like? I'm sure it would contain something like that: dangerous design, errors in construction cased by ignoring latest findings in safety, inappropriate testing by manufacturer, incomplete instructions and maintenance guidelines and so on ... I think no one should be complaining about what I'm doing because in SE they are doing exactly the same thing. I'm just looking at the coin from different side.

Hi Tom, I'm not putting worlds in your mouth - I said That's how I can interpret your answer and the area was clearly marked by >>>

Hi Tom, Thanks for the answer and for the time you are spending answering my questions. I guess you think it is an utter waste of time but I've got few points from your replies. I'm happy to cooperate on making the DHT safer and I'm sure I'll be able to offer more than just criticism. Although I'll be happy to discuss those matters via email some things I would like to discuss here open to public instead of hiding it. I believe if we won't keep our knowledge and experience as a secret somewhere out there could be someone with inquisitive and inventive mind and that person could come with something important later on. Based on your information I'm not concerned about AADs at all - those are well sorted, there is no problem and I'm happy about it. It wasn't my concern before but it is always good to know these things. Back to the subject: Your answers were nice and curly but let me get it straight and simple. That's how I can interpret your answers. >>> 1 - Have you based your press release on speculations without thorough physical testing? 1 - No - you did some testing and you believe it was enough 2 - Have you done physical ground tests on old and new equipment with different closing loops lengths and with different canopies? 2 - No , you haven't testing like that because it shouldn't happen. 3 - Are you aware stowing lines in elastic loops with plastic chokers on (or even without plastic chokers) can cause reserve bag lock? 3 - Yes but you are saying it is ok because even on significantly improved systems is still chance for baglock (even thus the chance for baglock on modern freebags is drastically decreased compare to DHT freebag) 4 - Are you aware stowing lines in elastic loops with plastic chokers on (or even without plastic chokers) can cause horseshoe malfunction on reserve or reserve entanglement during unstable reserve deployment? 3 - Yes , but you choose to ignore it because you are sure it will clear every single time (I'm talking the case when reserve pilotchute gets wrapped around some part of TM/passengers body and can't be quickly removed)

Opening up a disscussion about serious problem and asking for explanation is NOT a pesonal attack on SE. Altrhough I'm using pointy arguments I'm using apropriate language and my arguments are based on very easily verified facts. If you don't appreciate freedom of speach move to Iran or North Korea - I'm sure you'll be fully satisfied with quality of their censorship.

Honestly Tomas, your not going to hear much from me on this thread. As clearly evidenced by your postings on both this thread and the incidents forum, there is no amount of evidence or information that is going to sway your opinion, you will "point/counter point" this for all time. Hi Tom, 1) I'm not surprised but disappointed you are finding my concerns based on field experience just "being negative". What I'm surprised to hear about is Mr Strong has spend 30 000$ just to try out for himself if vigil and Argus cutters can cut the loops (not my business - true, it's his money) ... but I'm glad you haven't had any problems on those reserve rides - I know enough people including myself who don't have as good experience as you do. 2) I've spent some time verifying your reply about the volumes and after several physical experiments (no speculations) I've discovered a few very disconcerting facts which I would like to share. When I've tried to pull the bag out I found it was impossible to pull out even HOP330 out of new container with tight closing loop. On the other hand it was quite easy to pull out d bag with ANY CANOPY out of ANY older rig with stretched closing loops (5 year - 3200 jumps). Why my physical test didn't confirm your speculation? Can I ask you to answer a few simple YES / NO / CA (CAN'T ANWER BECAUSE OF POSSIBLE LAWSUIT) questions? 1 - Have you based your press release on speculations without thorough physical testing? (Y/N/CA) 2 - Have you done physical ground tests on old and new equipment with different closing loops lengths and with different canopies? (Y/N/CA) (following questions are regarding general safety) 3 - Are you aware stowing lines in elastic loops with plastic chokers on (or even without plastic chokers) can cause reserve bag lock? (Y/N/CA) 4 - Are you aware stowing lines in elastic loops with plastic chokers on (or even without plastic chokers) can cause horseshoe malfunction on reserve or reserve entanglement during unstable reserve deployment? (Y/N/CA) I'll appreciate if you'll answer all questions honestly and with simple Y/N/CA

personal insults and your personal opinions about me please into my personal email or prefferably face to face. Thank you

I know about these changes and interesting fact is that almost every change can be named " In memory of ... " The identified problems and field experience was usualy ignored or disregarded untill there was fatal or very serious accident. I thought safer rig means fewer accidents and fewer accidents means lot less problems with lawyers.

Hi Rob. I guess we are not on the same page at the moment. Developing theories about the last fatality wasn't my intention here - that's why I've started the new thread separated from the accident forum. My reason for starting this tread was to open up a discusion about DHT Design flaws and Safety and Maintenance hazards to wake up people from blindly believing in their equipment without knowing what's in there and how it works. (i know out there are many people otraged because they are scared they'll loose their flase feeling of safety but there is lot more in stake than just hurt feelings) I would like to expose the huge potential for problems on DHT (specialy the "reserve" system) and I hope the knowledge will help to change something and prevent future accidents - or do you think there is nothing on DHT what deserves attention, revision and improvement? I'm not sure what's your opinion about this but I think in comercial skydiving should be tendency to make work euipment and work enviroment more safer and if we discover something is wrong we should do something about it. It is Not just because of us but because of the paying customers as well. Looking forward to hear from you, Tom

any sensible or constructive arguments? take your time - there is no rush

How much is to much? For the record SE lopo's are still one of the best pilot canopies out there for the range of speeds for which they were designed. You have to judge things based on what they were designed for.

And I have a bet for you: If they presented a new design within the next month people like you would be outraged “why it took the so long to come out with it” and “why did we have to jump the old stuff for such a long time?” YaddaYaddaYadda Next point - you say tandems are a death trap: Did you, in your long career as a packer and rigger (how many thousand of packjobs have you got?) ever take the time to read the warning label in bright orange on mains, reserves and containers? Bingo! Skydiving is a fucking minefield. Welcome to the real world. And it is your F******* job as a rigger to keep your jumpers safe. If you have worked out how YOU can improve some detail, get in touch with the manufacturer in question. If it is something that hasn’t been thought about already and your invention comes in handy, I am sure it will turn up in the next update. Speaking of updates: You criticise, that DHT-design is just one giant patch. I bet you post this from a computer running on windows. Updating gear in small steps (as being done on DHT’s) is _IMHO_ an evolutionary process. You do not have to reinvent everything from scratch over and over again to keep a system and a good team running. Heck I could even cite Bill Booth that with every safety update idiots evolve as well finding new ways to kill themselves (and others) making the whole process nearly worthless Your other point – the MR425 reserve not being designed as a reserve: Can you spell Decelerator or Raven? In the rare case of a malfunction - again IMHO – I want my reserve to be as big and strong as possible. I need Kevlar to do this? Fine – just use it! If I blow up a cell or two being at terminal or over with a master 425 I’ve still got something larger left over than if I jumped a PD 360. And if I go for a reserve-ride I surely don’t want the fucker to rock all over the sky stalling and recovering because of setup/trim issues. Thanks – I’ll stick to Masters! I am sure someone really clever will come up and state the superiority of the sigmas. Well that was Booths shot to get rid of all the inherent design flaws of the vectors without getting the new design totally free of (possible) bugs. Even the much acclaimed Skyhook had a major fuckup needing a “ghetto-fix” You ask if proper maintenance of tandem equipment is enough to keep TI’s safe out there: Honestly I don’t know. Remember: This is still a minefield. But it is the most vital first step never to be missed. Still another point: TSO’s – do your reading and find out if ANY manufacturer has multiple TSO’s for one design. AFAIK everybody’s just got one. Vector 1 & 2 ran under the original wonderhog TSO (If I am wrong on this, correct me, I’ll freely apologise) I definitely know how hard this whole incident (how I hate that word) must be for everyone directly involved and I can understand that many people want to get the spotlight off the people involved – but in this process you blur the lesson: Do what you want and how you feel if you go out alone. But under no circumstances leave the proven path when it comes to taking a student/passenger/punter/peace of living cargo with you.

Tomas, I'm sorry, I need to comment on the logic of this one. If you follow the manufacturers weight limitations, it doesn't matter how fat we are all getting. If the student is heavier the instructor must be lighter, etc. The weight limitations do not guarantee safety, but they help. As far as the original thread about the fatalities in the Czech Republic, well, haven't we found that the owners/users of that Dual Hawk did many, many things wrong? A properly maintained and properly used tandem system from any manufacturer is acceptably safe. Hi Garry, I agree, if you put your hart and soul in it - anything can be maintained and serviced. I'm sorry for beeing harsh but you could use even condom 1000 times if you'll maintain it properly and use it carefuly - but would you do that? Maintenance was definitely one of the mayor factors of the accident - but not the only one. And don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to apologise them for overlooking the one broken part. That's one link in a chain. Size of the canopy? It looks like their disgusting marketing trick - "buy set400 and you are invincible". It would make me laugh if is wasn't so outrageous - volume is almost the same. Do we have to measure now exact volume of each packjob and readjust closing loop lengths before each jump? It sounds ridiculous Scary thing is - any of those dozens and dozens weak points and flaws which can go wrong with strong DHT - EACH OF THOSE can start the chain of events resulting in someone DEAD. It's like loaded gun with hundreds of little hidden triggers pointing at people. You can maintain those triggers - I'm not saying it is impossible - I'm doing it every day but once you'll forget one - the gun will fire straight into your face. I have a feeling you know it, right? long story short: Strongs report is NOT INDEPENDENT and they are hiding, ignoring and twisting impontant facts.

Hi Lee, first step in improving things is identifing if there is a problem, what kind of problem it is and if there is a way how to correct it - That's why I've started the thread. I'm pulling skelletons out of someones closet right now but it wasn't me who put them in there...

maybe - I am not a rigger, just a strong rated TI, so my opinion is surely biased - DHT's are high maintainance. but maintaining DHT's and keeping them safe, seems pretty easy to me. ever tried to change a kill-line on a vector? this is high maintainance in my eyes. take this as a sidenote, because i have no interest in bashing any manufacturer for how they design their gear like you do if you really don't like strongs and working with them convince your dzo to buy other gear, this is a free world. until then it is your job as the dz's rigger to keep any tandem equipment in a working and safe condition and stick to manufacturer recommendations and safety bulletins by the book - which the dz where the incident happend failed to do

Yes - other systems has a few issues as well. BUT strong DHT has almost the same number of problems as other systems all together that's not just flexipins. Of course you can take a DHT and start pointing on other systems and say "See - this rig has tis problem common with DHT, THAT rig has THAT problem common with DHT". Try to do it the other way. It looks like the DHT has enough problems for all the different systems available on the market. Lets compare two bigest players in a game in USA. UPT and SE - UPT started with VECTOR 1 and no drogue and say PD 360. They went through Vector II, Vector III and different main designs (surelly it wasn't for free) and ... NOW THEY HAVE A SIGMA!!! It might have still a few flaws but they proved the will to learn, change and improve. And it is to our mutual benefit. Lets have a look at SE. Third of century ago they started the whole thing with DHT and MR425 ... and now ... we STILL have the same DHT and MR 425 with a few not really functional mods. And it looks like ALMOST EACH minor mod had to be paid for by human lives. WHAT DOES IT TELLS YOU?

I've done some jumps on PD 360 and VS 386 and some things just did their job but their time is way over. I think you agree it is easy and inexpensive to replace main canopy but replacing whole system is incredibly expensive. Question is - How much is too much? It doesn't change the fact main canopy designed as a main canopy is a main canopy - you are a rigger and a very good one. You know reserves are designed different than mains because there are required different opening characteristics and the same is valid for deployment system on reserves. Now is year 2009 not 1980. I've heard the same arguments before "If you are complaining jump LoPos, ParaCommanders, Thunderbows" - and I did. It made me appreciate those people who stepped up and stepped over those dead legends and moved us forward. And I bet once you were helping to push the safety level up as well ... I agree. Breaks set so deep it stalls after opening. It is a cheat how to beat the tests on tandem terminal. There are already more modern and better reserves on the market. But you can't say MR425 is not bad because VS360 is not good - it doesn't make sense my point is in these days we know more about materials, openings, construction and safety. What's the point to throw it out of the window and ignore it? As I wrote before, now is year 2009 not 1980. There are far better materials and technologies now. Kevlar lines worn by constant rubbing on sharp edges of plastic chokers can snap any time without any warning - and unless you know exactly what you are looking for afterwards you'll never find it was exactly on the same place where the plastic choker was sitting before. Come on, are you pulling my leg? Try the other one - it has a bell on it :-) - Spectra doesn't stretch? Since when and how that happened? As far as I know spectra lines still shrink and stretch in dependence on heat and weight applied ... Vectran and HMA - true. It doesn't stretch but have you seen it on reserves??? Those lines are used because designers want to keep the same trim over period of hundreds of jumps to keep the same performance on canopy with 10 jumps as well as 500. Zero stretch lines are for competition canopies to reduce drag and to help keep more constant performance and more constant recovery arch On top of it - Most people don't have a clue how extremely difficult is to design canopy to open reasonably with those lines and how complex is designing the opening. Tell me, was MR425 thoroughly tested and is it well designed for the purpose it serves? Was the MR425 intended to be used for hundreds of jumps as a swooping canopy/reserve as well? Exactly - it is old way and time has moved on. Don't tell me now you'll let your dentist to do your teeth the same way they did it in 1890 or 1960? Back in the day you haven't had an option and no one knew better - now it is a different story So what. It costs $800 per jump. Everyone has to pay it - not just SE. If they can afford to make it safe that's bad - it's time to take it of the market than. Are you saying it is not good to question the safety of DHT because testing it and making it safe would cost money??? On the contrary I'm well aware how expensive and how difficult (and that will be the main issue here) is to pass tests for tandem reserve. Especially if the reserve blows up on one of the 3 required jumps on tandem terminal with full weight on. Or if you find it didn't blew up but it would kill both the passenger and TM as well. Or on the end you find the canopy and people survived but because of those changes the canopy doesn't opens to slow on low speeds or stalls after opening - Does it sound familiar? I fully agree unfortunately average passenger is now more and more heavy

>>> moved from prev forum

>>> posted by [divnswoop] - moved from previous forum

MOVED from discusion forum about another fatality related to DHT equipment. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3598486;page=unread#unread I would like to encourage all people reading my posts if you agree and even more if you dissagree with my opinions to COPY and PASTE the texts as it is or a link to this forum to an email and send it to EVERY TM and RIGGER you possibly know. We have a freedom of speach and the right to know what's really going on . Is Strong deliberately diverting our attention from real problems? Is Strong covering up dangerous design flaws? Is Strong DHT certified according to the present standarts? Is Strong DHT high maintenance demand reasonable workload or unjustified hazard? Why Strong DHT doesn't have a lot safer reserve system yet? >>> moved from previous forum

I have MPAAD in all my rigs and I'm more than satisfied. It's simple, easy to maintain and there is absolutely no visual difference or difference in packing volume in rig equipped with MPAAD or without any AAD at all. I know at least another dozen MPAAD owners here in New Zealand and never heard a single complain. All of the batteries I've seen are good for at least for 400 - 500 jumps and with the visible remaining capacity on display I don't have to guess when I need to order a new one. As far as I know the MPAAD hasn't been built watter proof but I know couple of people who "went for swim" and the unit came out ok.