TMPattersonJr

Quote

I'm talking about the blade inside the cutter cylinder. Is that visible with the eye or is something else needed to see if it's there?

You'll never see the blade. the only way you will ever see it is to destroy the cutter, or use the cutter. but at least with a pop top container the customer can physically see the loops going through the cutter just below the pin.

HPC

It makes me apprehensive to have to worry about two cutters having to work properly instead of just one. I've heard reports of missing cutters and loops not being completely cut. Bad enough with just one loop, twice the odds of such failures with two loops.

But at the same time a missed cutter is not an excuse with a pop top container as the cutters are located on the back pad and you can literally look through the grommets on the back pad to see the loops going through the cutter.

I don't personally have access to it but I'll see what I can come up with. I have no issue with the reserve activating at 750' back to earth only because I know our system will surpass the expectations. And I'd also put our system up against any other in a non-mard activation terminal or sub terminal.

We have plans looking at a one pin system but I don't like it so far. There's nothing wrong with the two pin system and the only reason we're looking at the one pin is to appease the industry.

But as far as the cost, the cost of our rig will cover the difference in the increased price of the AAD.

HPC

It's a shame then that they don't offer the standard bag to those who want them. It should be an option.

(Disclaimer) Yes I do currently work for the manufacturer (Disclaimer)

We do not have the patterns for the original bags to produce.

Yea I'm just now chiming in because I hadn't seen these until now.

Yes I'd pack them, I own many of them Tandems included.

As it stands there is no other rig I'd trust more. I used to work for another manufacturer but still owned a Racer while I worked there and owned 2 rigs from that manufacturer. My racers are the most comfortable, and to me safest rig that is on the market currently. I know of several (26 at last count) rigs that the AAD fired and the reserve didn't open in time to save the individual. Those rigs cover every manufacturer in the US and some from out of the country other than ours.

I will pack every Racer out there if it has a reasonably sized reserve in it and the system is deemed airworthy after an inspection.

I have many rides on our system both real and intentional. I know better than most how well the speed bag works. I do think having a controlled line dispersement will have more positive results every day of the week. Do I believe that the speed bag is the only way to accomplish this, no. Is it currently the option we choose to use because its the version that we have tested it not only as a reserve bag but made several tens of thousands of jumps with it as a main bag before implementing it, yes. Can it be a bit of a pain to pack? Yes. Because we use a one size fits most for our bags instead of building a bag for the 75ish different size reserve containers we build some might be a bit on the snug side.

I haven't completely read through the thread so I haven't probably answered all of the questions but here's a start. Oh and if you want to include videos of people dumping into a rats nest and expecting a great result thats probably the worst outcome for any manufacturer to try to get out of. I stand by our system and it would probably perform as well or better than most. But when you take the reserve pilot chute out of the the equation there's nothing but trouble going to happen no matter what the manufacturer of the equipment.

Now you might ask someone their opinion of our system. There's only a few that have knowledge of our current system and that will say anything bad about it. But there are MANY out there who have never put their hands on our system much less have been even close to educated about or system that have a very LARGE opinion about our system. So I appreciate the input from everyone in this forum and have heard from many of you as to your likes and dislikes about our system I just wish that people would educate themselves about something before they create an opinion based on the opinion of another un-informed individuals.

Look something like this....

https://youtu.be/VKVAtjfGjp0?t=1m35s

Yup these days we are being taught, and teach both sides open up and ride through deployment just as you see it here.

gowlerk

***I have found misrouted single sided RSL's quite a few times. People are capable of screwing anything up.

Since you seem to be the type of guy who always has to have the last word, have at it.

Let me try. Racer fans do this quite often. Instead of defending this flawed design they say "what about the other guy". Over and over again. That is simply changing the subject.

What should be the last word for this design is a simple "discontinued".

Actually in its time it was a great design and as long as the individual who was using it was trained to use it, there were few issues. It has become an issue when not the entire emergency procedure have been trained or even mentioned and living in the world today where everyone has to have their hand held to understand the simple workings of a backup system. Instead of looking at the equipment that they are putting on their back that has to save their live the expect that it works like everything else. Well it doesn't...

I know I'm trying to defend what you say is flawed but if used properly there isn't a flaw in it. It is the knowledge that is being handed down and that is why we as a company now are making changes to try and go with the current trend. Trust me I have been pulling fingernails to get these changes made. But the changes are coming. There are things in the works here but I'm only one guy and changing some things are not going to happen overnight. I pick my battles one at a time and see where they lead.

hackish

Take for example the rant about type 13. It is a bit better, but times changed in the last 20 years and newer hardware works fine with the type 7/type 8 everyone else uses!

You will have the same discussion and I have proven that Ty. 7, 8, and 13 can slip in the best and worse of circumstances. The hardware has gotten better but there isn't a prefect piece of hardware out there yet.

Quote

The everyone elses stuff is bad attitude has resulted in a strong reaction against your products nearly every time the discussion has come up among experienced jumpers and riggers. If it was best, everyone would be jumping one. I'm not saying Racers are bad, but the marketing hasn't exactly been stellar.

I have my reasons for not caring for some of the other manufacturers gear and if asked about it I will talk about it. But it is not up in my first offering. I spend my time in here attempting to educate the masses in trying to deflate the opinions that are out there about our equipment. Unfortunately being an internet forum there are several people out there that "know" what they are talking about and then there are those that actually know what they are talking about. Trying to weed through the opinions and give as much factual information will sometime require the use of examples that others will understand. It's not meant to point the finger at it is meant to give reference to. But because of who I am and who I work for it usually gets pointed out that I'm trying to talk bad about someone else equipment. When that was never the intention.

I will say that that has not always been the case here and I know that, But I tread very lightly when even mentioning another piece of equipment.

Quote

The pattern PLabs has been stuck in for the last 20+ years goes like this "their system is bad because..." Great, you just insulted a potential's customers purchasing decision.

And you've never gotten a sales pitch from me

Quote

Instead, you can show your product and say: "Let me show you why we feel that our product is best." Don't mention a single competitor and only speak in positives. We chose teflon cable instead of the yellow ones because it doesn't have to be lubricated every month. Try it, it's harder to do.

Again, you haven't heard me talk about our system, except for here. Defending against the uneducated or unknowing and even sometimes the knowing is much different than a sales pitch...

Quote

Even your original post smells of that attitude.

Actually it would be my original reply. My original post has no bias, just an informative piece. Again I mentioned that another piece of equipment if improperly used can kill you just as easily as my piece of equipment. And the statement is completely true. If you misuse the equipment in our sport it can, has and will kill you. That was the only point that I was trying to make. But because I even mentioned something manufactured by someone else I'm saying it's bad. Not at all, its in the context of the post that people will not look at. They will just figure that I am who I am and I'm badmouthing the competition.

I know talking in person is different than online but read the entire post and understand what I'm actually saying before you raise judgement.

Quote

I'm hoping to see some good things from you guys.

That makes the both of us.

Nope sorry.

I was saying in production here at the factory. I know many have put them on outside of the factory before now

We'll agree to disagree and move on from there. I see where every system has its advantages and its disadvantages. The primary one for the dual side is the same that the other manufacturers have implemented the Collins lanyard for. But I will also agree that some components need to find their way to the forefront and some need to take the path of the shot and a half and move over for the better.

DougH

The double sided RSL is dangerous simply because it has more user failure modes. We know that people frequently fuck up under pressure, so the less ways that are possible for them to do so the better!

Yes it has one difference in the possibility of a two out situation. So I educate the people that have them so they understand that if they have a:
Two-out
PC in tow
Total
Their EP's change with the dual connector. And it's not like we differ for the guidance that is put out by the USPA it's just not the parts that everyone teach. If you look at section 5-1 in the SIM it covers everything we say for our system with a Dual Side RSL but because it's not the brainless Cut Away and Pull your Reserve it's commonly not taught.

I understand why with a first jumper why you want to keep it simple. But we have a continuing education program that is commonly not followed completely. And after the reigns are let loose almost none come back to educate themselves and I've heard several in coach and aff courses that have said they've never heard of these options.

Yes I understand a the point that it changes things but I just wish people would seek out the differences in how their system works before something happens and then blame others when the info was provided.

Thanks PC, yes the setup is similar to what you have but we have done away with the elastic. There was a period after that that there was a piece of surgical tubing "connecting" the two housings. We've done away with all of that and just allow them to rest next to each other. The ripcord cable keeps them lined up enough and they almost push themselves together. Then as you close the flaps they rest in the same area and we've had no issue with it like his since 2006 and probably a bit before that (before my time in the shop).

The only reason it is taught this way is because dz's are trying to get as much for their buck and are stream lining the process as much as possible. So they trim out what is to me the safer option for a total so they don't have to differ their EP's. I don't jump with an RSL at all except on my tandem rig, and I would still rather dump my reserve directly from a total / PC in tow and deal with the consequences in a much slower environment. Having to worry about the main deploying during reserve deployment and then leaving while it has possibly wrapped around the reserve somehow doesn't seem all that appealing to me. And then there's the what if... what if my reserve link fails on deployment https://youtu.be/XbfNWbMvSXk that'd never happen right?!?

I think that some of the advances in our sport are being taken for granted because we don't want to take the time to educate the jumpers and just let them rely on their backups like they were taught in their FJC. I've seen way too many videos of jumpers on their first cutaway that only pull their cutaway and let their RSL do the rest because that's what it's there for right?!? As an industry we are doing a crap job of educating and spend more time downing gear that with a little bit of understanding people might actually like.

dpreguy

Well then. Thanks for the pictures. Wow. metal ring and all. Good. Last yr, when the thread was going, it wasn't in existence. I retract my objections. Guess this all occurred last year or so.

glad to help. I just don't like misleading info out there, I'd rather get a little confrontational and educate than just sit there and argue with someone about it. It has been in production for about a year and a half. And we've sold about 45 of them to customers other than new production. So they're out there.

gowlerk

It's nice to see that you are taking on the task of moving the Racer system into the future. But please, don't fall into the old habit I've seen from Parachute Labs. Namely pointing out problems you perceive with UPT products instead of addressing your own.

Quote

And as far as it being a hazard, used incorrectly a skyhook can kill you just as easily as our dual side can.

This is not only untrue, it is irrelevant. Unless you mean an incorrectly rigged Skyhook. But I don't want to discuss UPT designs here. You will go far only if you get out of this very bad habit that I've seen time and again from the principles of your company. Address your problems like you are and let others address their own problems.

At a time when everyone else is developing or marketing MARDs PL needs to finally understand that RSLs are now standard equipment on nearly all new rigs. If you want to market to new jumpers....well, judging by your comments I think you already know what needs to be done.

I can understand what you mean by the cross connected RSL not being deleted anytime soon. But perhaps it could become optional only.

You completely missed my point, any system being mis-used CAN and WILL kill you. Ether mis-routed or whatever it can malfunction. the majority of the issues that have arisen from our system were either mis-routed or pulling out of sequence from the manufacturers suggestion, mis-use.

Every system has a quirk. The question is do you know how to mitigate that quirk so that it won't potentially be a life threatening issue. If so you know your system. If not you might want to get to know your system.

Yes I picked on our next door neighbors system because how many people know about the trap or the boost? Not many. If you say the word skyhook, most will know what you are talking about. I have my qualms about the mards out there. But those I keep to myself unless asked on a one on one basis.

So I do my best not to bash the competition at all and only use them as a reference so that others might understand.
But you will not see me go on a rant about the other systems in the market downfalls, only how my system outperforms them

Yes it is going to be added to the manual it is one of the many.... many projects I'm working on here.

I tend to push for the single side whenever I talk with my customers and explain to them both. But until this place changes hands I don't ever see the dual side being done away with.

And as far as it being a hazard, used incorrectly a skyhook can kill you just as easily as our dual side can. I know we leave it to the individuals to seek the knowledge but unless we deal with them directly then all we can do is hope they read the user manual.

I'm trying bit by bit to restore the faith in our system that we once had and would love to work with any rigger that would like to learn the tricks about packing them to make it easier for them. I'm tired of hearing our rigs are hard to pack... The only reason is you haven't learned to pack them by someone who knows how. Most have "learned" from someone who has learned from the book and not from those who do it all the time and yes it can be difficult. But learning the tips and tricks that the factory riggers use will help you to pack any system easier not just ours.

dpreguy

" ..only difference"...."goes between two sections of housings...". Not that I have seen. I believe you are incorrect. I think you are leaving something out. I have not actually seen a Racer housing setup with the single sided RSL, (I doubt many riggers have), ( would love to have seen one at PIA), but I have seen a staged video of one deploying in their loft, posted by the company, showing the necessity of the housing to be pulled up in a big loop, and then break apart. Also, in the video I saw, the actual pulling on the cable was by a nylon loop, (as distinguished by a nearly frictionless steel ring around the cable. ) The video I saw showed a continuous housing which must first must somehow break apart first. That is the function problem and what distinguishes the Racer RSL from all other rigs, both domestic and foreign. This discussion has been ongoing for years and despite requests to see a picture(s) of this one-sided RSL none have been posted. Not in the manual either. If my assumptions from the staged loft deploy video are incorrect then I will stand corrected.

Reflex did it right. They had two sections of housings, which were secured at the ends and separated by a space. In addition, they used a frictionless ring on the end of the lanyard, not a nylon loop. Adopting the Reflex invention, which operates like every other RSL off one riser only, would solve Racer's objectors' criticisms. The necessity of a break apart housing, a nylon loop instead of a steel ring around the cable and the housing not being tacked at both ends distinguishes.

As I work for the manufacturer in question, I believe I am correct sir. As for seeing one at PIA all you had to do was stop by and ask. There were rigs there with single and dual side RSL's hooked up.

As to quit hijacking the poor OP post about which rig to choose you can find my reply to all the racer questions here:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4846650;#4846650

As to the OP: Try everything. If you go by the majority of the posts you'll receive here you'll get a bunch of opinions stated as facts that may not be in line with what you're looking for. I work and sell for a manufacturer and if you would like to try my equipment I would be glad to talk to you offline about it and send you a demo to try out. But I will also tell you again to TRY EVERYTHING you can get your hands on. every rig in the industry has its quirks and all have their bonuses. We all build to a standard and most exceed that standard. so what it really ends up coming down to are options, fit, and style. Find what works best for you and buy that.

So since there are some out there that do not know. Yes Parachute Labs Racer does offer a single side RSL.

Here are some pics of the set up.

It is a simple RSL utilizing a single RSL shackle on the left riser that goes to a SS RW4 ring. It utilizes the same split housing location as the dual sided used.

If you have any questions you can contact me at: [email protected]

dpreguy

Racer one sided RSL:
Careful about characterizing or assuming the Racer one sided RSL as "just an option", as though one would blithely assume the Racer design would be like all of the other one sided RSL's available in the industry. It is not. It has little resemblance to the rest of the industry standard designs of one sided RSL's. The purchaser should look at it carefully and see what has to happen to eventually extract the reserve pin. Then decide.

The only difference between our single side vs say mirage is that ours goes in between two sections of housing vs in between two guide rings. The function is identical otherwise. The flexible section of housing allows for the pins to extract easily and like every other rig on the market not exceed the recommended pull forces for the pins.

gowlerk

***Yes. Now an option.

Yes, but it's an option you have to know enough to ask for.

Actually it is discussed with the customer if they ask about an RSL. We do not lead them blindly into using either RSL, we give them information on both (including emergency procedures) and let them make the decision.

OK now that we've fit all the Racer bashing into this forum that we can... And no that's not a egging to continue....

Most points covered on here are correct. If you have the serial number and we can determine that that is the correct rig, we can put a new door on it with a new TSO label. If you don't have the serial number and the TSO label is too worn out for us to look at there is the possibility that we would inspect and re-certify it in house. There are several options out there for you. Contact anyone here at the shop (386-734-5867) or myself by e-mail ([email protected]) and we can see what we can do for you.

Sorry guys, we're working on transferring everything that was on JumpShack.com to plabsinc.com. There is some stuff that is not working that was interconnected between the two sites. We'll get it all up and running as soon as possible, in between building containers and canopies and spreading the Jump Shack/Parachute Labs love. If you were looking for something specific and can't find it contact me directly [email protected]

I marked yes, would mark the data card accordingly showing NOT repacked and whatever work I had done. That way the govt entity could know what I had done and not done. if the repair needs the reserve popped the they'll have to suck it up.

Something that big you're probably going to need leading edge weight, a primary weight to suspend from the lower leading edge. and also a trailing edge weight.if you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgoh5HG-F2o you'll see the trailing edge lifting. This is what the trailing edge weight is used for. It pulls the tail of the flag down and keeps it stretched out.