mciocca

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  1. mciocca

    ATMONAUTI

    The point was to have a section under INSTRUCTORS to assist and shed light on safe Atmo progression. Why dont you guys go onto another forum you can label LETS TRASH ATMONAUTI. This section is for serious folk who take care of the safety of their fellow jumpers in the community. This goes out to all of you who are once again using this forum to destabalise and defame, If you dont have something valuable to add specific to safety... MOVE TO ANOTHER FORUM. The Sky's Our Playground
  2. mciocca

    ATMONAUTI

    Hiya, These are actual requirements as implemented in certain countries around the world, including Italy and South Africa, and are the bases for ratings and safe flying. Its laid out as per other disciplines whereby you have an official progression in place for the safe practice and learning of Atmonauti at DZ around the world. As more and more people are doing atmo, it requires a set of procedures, in order to progress safely
  3. mciocca

    ATMONAUTI

    ...."I resent you using this forum to push your personal agenda"... Did I read this correctly? You RESENT this post? This is for safety purposes, for people like yourself, to fly and have fun safely and YOU RESENT IT? The Sky's Our Playground
  4. As with anything new there's always going to be the unbelievable aspect to it, and its normal to question these statements as true and factual and ask for evidence. Like when we first discovered the world was not flat, but spherical. New terms in skydiving such as "custom tube". "lift" etc are going to be contested initially, as these are completely new terms, unlike anything we've ever know about freefall/skydiving. That is why we are taking our time to discuss and present these principles to the skydiving family (our community). We strongly believe that this is to the benefit of our sport in general, and will go a long way in bringing new people to our sport and/or retain the ones who are growing tired of throwing money at difficult forms of our much loved sport - 3d freefall being one of these (i want to refer to freeflying, as 3-dimensional freefall). The reason for coining this term is there is way too much confusion in our sport where everything is now falling under the auspice of Freeflying. Everything. Even FS, Wingsuiting and Atmonauti. Soon we'll probably see the first signs of "canopy piloting is aslo freeflying...". Im going to focus on this term again: 3-dimesnional freefall, to include head up, head down, back, belly and transitions in 3 axis. We're falling. Thats it. We're utilising the relative wind we achieve in freefall due to the gravitational force on our bodies to do so. We dont even attempt to fly. So lets take the fly out of freefly for now. Free-fall is actually more on the money. And I LOVE FREEFLYING. So im not dissing it. We teach this to all our first jumpers (the relative wind is FROM BELOW etc etc). Once we agree that the rekative wind in Atmo is not "from below" as with freefall, we can start talking about new forms of skydiving such as Atmonauti and Wingsuiting, which are not classical freefall disciplines whatsoever, and where the "tube" refers to relative wind NOT hitting our bodies perpendicular to the ground. These "new" disciplines require a brand new set of skills, understanding and techniques for them to be efficient and done safely. There are a new set of safety standards which are not applicable in freefall down the tube. We need to recognize the need to formalise these new disciplines for these reasons, and not confuse the issue with lift/spilling air etc etc. The overriding point of departure should be to differentiate and implement safety standards and procedures specific to horizontal 3d travel. Once we agree that freefall is one thing, and that generating lift (whether large or small amounts of it) is another - we can start to appreciate the beauty of Atmonauti in what it affords us - longer ff times (we exit miles from the dz), we use our bodies as airfoils and do our damndest to overcome the effects of gravity. For the first time we fly as humans in a controlled manner, even if not indefinitely. And not only do we fly, but we can ALL build large linked formtions, transition around 3 axis into different body positions that require a true understanding of lift/airfoil shapes while doing so, it is slow and safe, easy to get into and challenging to grow into for those that love a challenge (as in feet first atmo). Atmo in a shell: a) Its very dynamic b) requires a new skill set b) We create a "custom" tube at the selected angle of flight which for the first time we as skydivers can control, c) It greatly increases freefall time d) You're flying, not merely falling, and its possible without the use of strap-on equipment! Just your body, and thats it! The best form of evidence is for you to try it out, and when you're hitting speeds of 100 mph, 90 mph, 80mph you'll be amazed. All this while doing multiple docks and transitions in a multitude of different axis. This is whats important to me. The Sky's Our Playground
  5. Hi Andrewnewell, The image you posted is countered by the attached pics showing more efficient forms of atmo. As with anything, you can fly less or more efficiently. It does happen that atmo formations when flown less efficiently/too flat, that the forward speeds and relative wind over the airfoil slows, and enter a stalled flight path. It happens, but you cannot judge a canopy on a stalled (flared) photo on landing ;0) The Sky's Our Playground
  6. Heya Pilotdave, As with anything new there's always going to be the unbelievable aspect to it, and its normal to question these statements as true and factual and ask for evidence. Like when we first discovered the world was not flat, but a sphere. New terms in skydiving such as "custom tube". "lift" etc are going to be contested initially by people who do not yet have a grasp of what is being presented, as these are completely new terms, unlike anything we've ever know about freefall/skydiving. That is why we are taking our time to discuss and present these principles to the skydiving family (our community). We strongly believe that this is to the benefit of our sport in general, and will go a long way in bringing new people to our sport and/or retain the ones who are growing tired of throwing money at difficult forms of our much loved sport - 3d freefall being one of these (i want to refer to freeflying, which is not flying at all, as 3-dimensional freefall). The reason for coining this term is there is way too much confusion in our sport where everything is now falling under the auspice of Freeflying. Everything. Even FS, Wingsuiting and Atmonauti. Soon we'll probably see the first signs of "canopy piloting is aslo freeflying...". Im going to focus on this term again: 3-dimesnional freefall, to include head up, head down, back, belly and transitions in 3 axis. Once we agree that its always been FALLING, and we teach this to all our first jumpers (the relative wind is FROM BELOW etc etc), then we can start talking about new forms of skydiving such as Atmonauti and Wingsuiting, which are not classical freefall disciplines whatsoever. They require a brand new set of skills, understanding and techniques for them to be efficient. There are a new set of safety standards which are not applicable in freefall down the tube. We need to recognize the need to formalise these new disciplines for these reasons. Once we also agree that freefall is one thing, and that generating lift (whether large or small amounts of it) is another - we can start to appreciate the beauty of Atmonauti in that it affords us longere ff times, we exit miles from the dz, we use our bodies as airfoils and do our damndest to overcome the effects of gravity by taking it into our own hands to do something about it. For the first time humans can fly. And not only do they fly, but they can build large linked formtions, transition around 3 axis into different body positions that require a true understanding of lift while doing so, is slow and safe, easy to get into and challenging to grow into for those that love a challenge. Im glad to hear you would be interested to get instructionals in Atmonauti and try it out. For sure you will achieve amazing things with this wonderful discipline which is unlike traditional ff in that: a) Its very dynamic b) It utilises a "custom" tube at the selected angle of flight which for the first time we as skydivers can control, c) It greatly increases freefall time d) You're flying, not merely falling, and its possible without the use of strap-on equipment! Just your body, and thats it! The best form of evidence is for you to try it out, and when you're hitting speeds of 100 mph, 90 mph, 80mph you'll be amazed. All this while doing multiple docks and transitions in a multitude of different axis. For more info go to atmonauti.com The Sky's Our Playground
  7. MNEALTX, You make no sense with your comments. i dont think you understand the concepts very well as you still aren't grasping whats being put forward. Let me repeat what you still have not understood. 1) in head down we are in freefall, with our bodies perfectly aligned with the direction of fall when falling down the "tube". there is a straight line from the head through our bodies in the direction we are moving. We do not create any airfoil shape in head down. 2) In atmonauti, we use angle to create forward movement through the air, which creates a relative wind that strike the head first and travels towards the feet, as in head down. HOWEVER, the difference here is that emphasis is place on the shape/form of the body, so as to create a curvature across the top of the body which the air has to travel a further distance across at a faster speed than the air traveling across the bottom, which creates lift. You say "Hmm///sounds like spilling air to me..", if you stand by that statement, im sorry to say, you dont have a grasp of atmonauti and/or the principles of lift. 3) you say "if lift is lift why aren't the HD folks getting pulled off the fall line by it?"... My answer to you is simple, and if you read the last email i posted closely you would note that ive already answered this for you. In head down the form of the body is not an airfoil shape, as in atmo. 4) It is possible to take up the airfoil shape travelling perpendicular to the ground and utilising the relative wind over the airfoil be pulled across the ground in the direction of the low pressure, HOWEVER, we are sacrificing way too much altitude at 90 degrees to achieve any significant amount of lift to INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY our FF time, thus in Atmonauti we do so at angles of around 10 - 60 degrees, or more frequently 45 degrees. The Sky's Our Playground
  8. mciocca

    ATMONAUTI

    Atmonauti Instructionals/Ratings: Atmonauti, unlike traditional free-fall - including tracking and flocking - (that utilises the relative gravitational wind from “below” to achieve a multitude of stable body positions at terminal velocity) is the term given to the technique that intentionally utilises lift to compensate for the effect of gravity, in order to achieve relative wind (or a custom “tube”) at an angle of between 10deg – 65deg, where after the atmonaut (atmosphere navigator) introduces a multitude of three dimensional body positions and transitions, while “falling” at greatly reduced speeds (70mph – 110mph), resulting in extended free-fall time and increased safety. Atmonauti, due to the reduced air speeds, is a SOCIAL discipline, which is accessible to the masses. Atmonauti incorporates Frontmonauti, Backmonauti, Footmonauti, and Inverted Footmonauti, with the addition of Gamemonauti, Freestyle and Atmo Relative Work. The atmonauti instructor is the navigator in the group jumps, is capable of instructing single jumpers and/or groups of jumpers at ground-school level specific to safety, technique, navigation, slot positioning and break-off etc. and is furthermore responsible to fly as base navigator in the formation, while communicating body position improvements and general flight path direction and break-off. It will be necessary that the instructors are involved in the management of the activity at the centres and be responsible (along with wingsuit instructors) for all activities different from vertical fall, specific to flight planning. The logical progression of skills is: 1. understanding the concept of flight vs. fall, 2. understanding the concept of no-fly zones and flying on “level”, 3. “flying” the tube (frontmonauti and backmonauti), 4. adjusting speeds, 5. adjusting levels, 6. rotating around two of the three axes, 7. transitions into the various body positions, 8. break-off direction and altitudes. As soon as a student has successfully completed ISP progression, such a student can choose to progress to Atmonauti. 2 CATEGORY TESTS AND REQUIREMENTS “A” license jumpers may commence a cat II and cat III atmonauti progression course (including instructional ground schooling) and obtain the brevet (international license) of atmonauti FRONTMONAUTA and BACKMONAUTA with one on one instructionals with a recognised Atmonauti Instructor, where after such brevets will allow the candidate to participate in CAT II and CAT III tests in Atmonauti. “B”, “C” and “D” license jumpers are free to participate in larger instructional group formations after having received instructional ground schooling from a recognised Atmonauti Instructor, in accordance with their relative experience levels. One on one instructionals are not obligatory but highly recommended. Atmonauti Qualifications/Licenses will be divided into 4 parts: 1.a Qualification of Frontmonauti (international brevet/license) - have passed a theory exam on the basic Frontmonauti rules and techniques. - have passed a test that consists of performing a flight with the instructor who, during the flight, will perform changes of speed, of angle and of trajectory. - the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to always remain at a constant distance in relation to the instructor, and never be in the “no fly zones”. - have passed practice jumps that consists of being able to synchronize with the formation and remain at a constant distance, and on level with it, for the duration of the flight, while never going into the “no-fly zone”. - have shown the ability to correctly separate in frontmonauti at break off. - to execute the above test correctly on three consecutive flights. 1.b CAT II Qualification - have successfully passed Frontmonauti brevet/license requirements (see above). - have passed a test of exiting the aircraft 1 second after the instructor, taking a stable dock from the fly-zone within 10 seconds, holding the dock for 5 seconds, releasing and crossing over the instructor to the opposite side, taking a stable dock and holding the dock for 5 seconds. Once the Atmo CAT II is obtained, the candidate will be free to participate in large atmo groups utilising the Frontmonauti body position exclusively. 2.a Qualification of Backmonauti (international brevet/license) - have passed a theory exam on the basic Backmonauti rules and techniques. - have passed a test that consists of performing a flight with the instructor who, during the flight, will perform changes of speed, of angle and of trajectory. - the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to always remain at a constant distance in relation to the instructor, and never be in the “no fly zones”. - have passed practice jumps that consists of being able to synchronize with the formation and remain at a constant distance, and on level with it, for the duration of the flight, while never going into the “no-fly zone”. - have shown the ability to correctly separate in backmonauti at break off. - to execute the above test correctly on three consecutive flights. 2.b CAT III Qualification - have successfully passed Backmonauti brevet/license requirements (see above). - have passed a test of exiting the aircraft 1 second prior to the instructor, taking a stable dock from the fly-zone within 10 seconds, holding the dock for 5 seconds, releasing and sliding under the instructor to the opposite side, taking a stable dock and holding the dock for 5 seconds. Once the Atmo CAT III is obtained, the candidate will be free to participate in large atmo groups utilising the Frontmonauti and Backmonauti body positions, including transitions. 3.a Qualification of Flight Navigator The navigator qualification allows the navigator to navigate group atmo loads of recognised CAT II and CAT III atmonauts. This qualification is not an Instructor qualification. - must pass a theory exam on Atmonauti Navigation rules and techniques. - Must exit the aircraft stable, and maintain a stable and consistent frontmonauti body position. - the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to fly and maintain a safe and correct flight path. 3.b Qualification of INSTRUCTOR / MASTER NAVIGATOR (A.I.R. RATING) The atmonauti instructor is the navigator on the INSTRUCTIONAL group jumps, and is capable of instructing single jumpers and/or groups of jumpers at ground-school level specific to safety, technique, navigation, slot positioning and break-off etc. The instructor is qualified of flying as base navigator in Instructional Formations, while communicating body position improvements and general flight path direction. The candidate should know perfectly all the rules specific to Atmonauti, as well as general club rules, and general knowledge of the MOP’s and above all he should be able to explain them in an easy and correct manner. For this reason a JM rating is integral for such an instructor rating. The Instructor / Master Navigator qualification is obtainable after: - Having matured his/her experience in atmonauti, and holds a valid PASA CAT II and CAT !!! in Atmonauti. - Having acquired the technique and philosophy of the atmonauti discipline and is capable of communicating such information in a simple and understandable fashion. - Have passed an Atmonauti Instructor Evaluation Test that consists: ß exiting the plane a second after the instructor ß performing a frontmonauti hand grip on his right within 10 seconds from the exit ß flying the grip perfectly for 5 seconds ß leaving the grip and passing above the instructor at not more than a meter, passing to his left and performing a hand grip on the left hand of the instructor ß flying the grip perfectly for 5 seconds ß leaving the grip and performing a transition to backmonauti ß performing a grip in backmonauti on the left hand of the instructor ß flying it perfectly for 5 seconds ß leaving the grip, while remaining in backmonauti and passing under the instructor to the right side of the instructor, and performing a grip on the right hand of the instructor ß flying the grip perfectly for 5 seconds - have passed an oral exam on the atmonauti technique, and have the necessary knowledge required for the instructor rating, specific to organising large formations (instructionals, planning the formations, break-off etc) - have passed an evaluation practice test that consists in organizing an atmonauti group jump including verbal instructionals, preparation on the ground (analysis of the conditions and parameters), flight planning, briefing, and debriefing all the phases of the flight. Once passed these tests the candidate will receive an Atmonauti Instructor Rating / Atmonauta Master Navigator Rating and can start the activity of Instructor and organizer of instructional flight groups. It will be necessary that the instructors are involved in the management of the activity at the DZ’s and be responsible (along with wingsuit instructors) for all activities different from vertical fall, specific to flight planning (flight patterns). 4.a Qualification of Footmonauti (international brevet/license) - have passed a theory exam on the basic Footmonauti rules and techniques. - have passed a test that consists of performing a flight with the instructor who, during the flight, will perform changes of speed, of angle and of trajectory. - the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to always remain at a constant distance in relation to the instructor, and never be in the “no fly zones”. - have passed practice jumps that consists of being able to synchronize with the formation and remain at a constant distance, and on level with it, for the duration of the flight, while never going into the “no-fly zone”. - have shown the ability to correctly separate in footmonauti at break off. - to execute the above test correctly on three consecutive flights. 4.b CAT IIII Qualification - have successfully passed Footmonauti brevet/license requirements (see above). - have passed a test of exiting the aircraft 1 second prior/after the instructor, taking a stable spock from the fly-zone within 10 seconds, holding the spock for 5 seconds, releasing and sliding under/over the instructor to the opposite side, taking a stable spock and holding the spock for 5 seconds. Once the Atmo CAT IIII is obtained, the candidate will be free to participate in large atmo groups utilising the Frontmonauti, Backmonauti and Footmonauti body positions, including transitions. 3 GROUP LOADS Groups from 2 – 3 jumpers will break off at an altitude of 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator. Groups from 4 – 7 jumpers will break off in two phases, with 4 jumpers breaking off at 5000 feet AGL and the remaining jumpers breaking off at 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator. Groups from 8 – 11 jumpers will break off in three phases, with 4 jumpers breaking off at 5500 feet AGL, 4 jumpers breaking off at 5000 feet AGL, and the remaining jumpers breaking off at 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator. Groups from 12 – 15 jumpers will break off in four phases, with 4 jumpers breaking off at 6000 feet AGL, 4 jumpers breaking off at 5500 feet AGL, 4 jumpers breaking off at 5000 feet AGL, and the remaining jumpers breaking off at 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator. Minimum exit altitude for atmonauti jumps is 7000 feet AGL. Minimum exit altitude for atmonauti groups is 9000 feet AGL. 4 FLIGHT PATTERNS Flight patterns are in accordance with aircraft exit patterns as briefed by the instructor/senior navigator, but whereby in general it is important to note that experienced navigator groups exit first and whereby inexperienced solo jumpers/groups will exit last (excluding wingsuit jumpers). In general the atmonauti groups fly at minimum 45 deg to run-in so as to fly away from, and create separation to, freefall jumpers exiting closer to the dz. In the event that more than one atmo group is present on the aircraft, the first group will exit at 45 deg to right and the second group 45 deg to the left and third group 45 deg to right (as with first group) and so on. Inexperienced groups exiting last should be aware that a flight pattern of 130 deg might be required in order to avoid flying away from the recommended landing area. Attention should be paid to the direction of the preceding atmo loads to avoid opening close to such preceding groups. 5 EQUIPMENT As per AE 6 LICENSES ß Atmonauti B license requirements: As per Pasa MOP’s (section 2), including CAT II, CATIII and Flight Navigator qualification in Atmonauti - signed off by a recognised Atmonauti Instructor. ß Atmonauti C license requirements: As per Pasa MOP’s (section 2), including Instructor/Master Navigator qualification in Atmonauti - signed off by a recognised Atmonauti Instructor. ß Atmonauti D license requirements: As per Pasa MOP’s (section 2), including CAT IIII qualification in Atmonauti - signed off by a recognised Atmonauti Instructor. The Sky's Our Playground
  9. In order to generate lift you need to create a movement of air/relative wind OVER AN AIRFOIL. In Atmonauti we produce the relative wind from the head towards the feet OVER AN AIRFOIL shape of the body. Since we do not have a propulsion system, we sacrifice altitude by taking up an angle of flight relative to the ground in order to produce relative wind over the airfoil shaped body to create lift. In head down, we are falling straight down, with our bodies perfectly in alignment with the angle of descent, with no airfoil shape whatsoever. If in head down you take up the airfoil shape, you would in theory create a low pressure above the airfoil, pulling you in that direction, which is not commonly done. Further to this, as i said before, in Atmonauti we sacrifice altitude (taking up an angle of flight, thus not flying parallel to the ground) in order to produce relative wind over the human airfoil which produces lift. In head down, traveling perpendicular to the ground we sacrifice way too much altitude and the lift generated is not sufficient to increase our ff time significantly, thus the most popular angles in Atmonauti are from around 45 - 10 degrees, but often can reach 60 or 70 degrees, sometimes referred to as Trace in France, which is a steep form of Atmonauti. The Sky's Our Playground
  10. Dave, you still don't seem to have understood the concept of Atmo. The suggestion is that you try it out first before commenting. Try it out, and you'll find that what many of us are saying is indeed truly amazing. If the diagram makes no sense to you, then its even more clear as to why you haven't yet understood the concept, since it makes total sense to those who are familiar with the technique. Pleas don't assert that since you don't understand something that it means i do not understand it either. Speak for yourself bro, not for the rest of us. The Sky's Our Playground
  11. fedykin... please refer to Frosts quote when trying to convince the world that wingless bodies cannot create lift: ***I read and studied. I also consulted with a physicist and a big shot aeronautical engineer at Boeing, who was also a professor at U of Washington in Seattle. Based on what i was able to dig up and the conversations I had with these well respected people, everything points out that a human body DOES generate lift. In fact they claim that ANY body is capable of generating lift, even a spinning ball (!). The Sky's Our Playground
  12. mnealtx, I notice that you have 50 jumps or so total over 13 years of jumping. Would it not be prudent for you to consider what more experienced skydivers and skyflyers are saying rather than commenting on something you clearly do not have a lot of experience with. In a 2 week period we often exceed 100 skydives, training the atmo discipline. I would recommend that you consider doing some training in atmo with an atmo instructor who will support your growth specific to flight training and im pretty sure that you will reach the 75 - 90 mph speeds the rest of us attain, and not the 130 mph speeds you reach in ff. The Sky's Our Playground
  13. In Atmo, if you're doing it correctly, you should have a vertical speed ranging from the 75mph - 90mph range. Furthermore, the point of taking angle and using the relative wind from the head to the feet and not on the chest is that you fly with the body and use your arms and feet for docking as with freeflying headdown docks etc, which you cannot do in tracking. Atmo 4way, 8way etc is commonplace (with docks), transitions by and between body positions on different axis also commonplace (not so in tracking), so its not only about the reduce ff rate. PS If your doing atmo at 130mph, your NOT doing atmo ;0) The Sky's Our Playground
  14. Hi Mike, For lift to be present and working on a body the relative wind needs to travel across the airfoil from fornt to rear, as with atmo/gliders/canopies etc. In freefall (including tracking) the relative wind is from below, thus true lift in not being generated. Please see attached image. The Sky's Our Playground
  15. ***In order for a glider to fly, it must generate lift to oppose its weight. To generate lift, a glider must move through the air. But the motion of a glider through the air also generates drag. In a powered aircraft, the thrust from the engine opposes drag. But a glider has no engine to generate thrust. With the drag unopposed, a glider quickly slows down until it can no longer generate enough lift to oppose the weight. So how does a glider generate the velocity needed for flight? The simple answer is that a glider trades altitude for velocity. It trades the potential energy difference from a higher altitude to a lower altitude to produce kinetic energy, which means velocity. Gliders are always descending relative to the air in which they are flying. Fedykin/atmonaughty... read the above - which has been cut and pasted from Gigliola's post - so that if you missed it you cant say you never got a second opportunity to educate yourself. The Sky's Our Playground
  16. Nice one frost... I like the detail specific to wingless bodies which create lift when the correct form is achieved (below): ..."Aerodynamic lift - essential to flight in the atmosphere - was obtained from the shape of the vehicles rather than from wings as on a normal aircraft. The addition of fins and control surfaces allowed the pilots to stabilize and control the vehicles and regulate their flight paths"... Later bro. The Sky's Our Playground
  17. atmonaughty, ..."That was about 4 years ago now so I guess, I need to "re educate myself" huh??????".... All i can say to this is that if you stand by what you are saying then either you never understood the principles to start with, or you've completely forgotten. Maybe its time for you to do more coaching with Marco Tiezzi then? After all, you wanna keep up to date right ;0) Now lets put this to bed and enjoy the daylight... Later! The Sky's Our Playground
  18. You're quite correct when you say we do not have a propeller... I must remind you that neither do modern day canopies. if you were to say that modern day canopies do not produce lift you would be wrong. Our canopies cannot remain aloft indefinitly either. But that is not to say they do not generate lift. They do. The air speed over our airfoil shaped bodies is generated by the angle we chose to fly in, as per our canopies which have shorter lines in the front than at the rear - this causes us to surge forward and generates lift under canopy, whether large or small amounts of lift, over the wing. Its the same for Atmo. We do not have a propeller, so the body is angled to generated a surge forward which in return generates a stream of air across the curved body form, which produces the lift (whether large or small) that we refer to. I guess the fact that we haven't landed a wingsuit as yet means that wingsuits don't generate lift either then? If you were to say that you would be wrong too. The fact the the rate of lift is not sufficient to overcome gravity completely and thus not have sufficient positive lift to stay airborne indefinitely is besides the point. The point is, and you seem to have missed it, is that whatever lift IS being generated reduces the FF rate, extends the FF time, and allows Atmonauts to achieve great distance, while taking docks in 3 dimensions. We are not falling at the mercy of gravity. We do not have relative wind from below as with freefall. These are facts. Later. The Sky's Our Playground
  19. Atmonaughty, Take a close look at the pic attached, and take a guess where the burble is....... Now please, tell me once again how there is no horizontal movement in Atmonauti, and to finish off, tell me please where the relative wind is coming from?? Now go try it out for yourself, and not only will you have a blast doing it, you'll understand the principles at work. The Sky's Our Playground
  20. Dude with all due respect from your last post i can tell that you have NEVER tried atmo. EVER. To say that the air in front of an atmonaut is static is ridiculous! There is relative wind exactly as indicated in the image due to the horizonal movement at the desired angle as indicated in the image and as experienced by thousands of atmonauts around the world. To say that "there is no 'wind' as such...." is like saying that in freefall there is no relative wind from below! Im not going to continue trying to explain something to somebody that has never tried it for themselves. The remainder of your post is just as uneducated and frankly embarrassing for you. Im not even going to attempt to correct you. If you are going to add anything more to this discussion group please educate yourself, try it out, and then come back and give us your INFORMED thoughts. The Sky's Our Playground
  21. ;o) Hi Mike, Sorry to say it, but its a typical uneducated statement. How did you arrive at the conclusion that if tracking doesn't generate lift then neither does atmo? Thats like saying that if a round parachute goes straight down then so does a modern day canopy. Id recommend first reading up/educating yourself, try it out, and Im sure you'll appreciate the difference. Blue skies. The Sky's Our Playground
  22. One last thing.... In Freefall we cannot set up directly above another jumper as we will be in the direct burble of the jumper and fall onto such a jumper (as there is no drag/very little drag). In Atmonauti, and to prove the point that WE ARE NOT FALLING is that very often we set up DIRECTLY ABOVE the other jumpers, sometimes doing RIG SURF'S with our feet etc. a few feet above the other Atmonaut. Were it not for the fact that we are flying forwards, we would be in a direct burble of the jumper below, WHICH WE ARE NOT. This is why some truly amazing and dynamic docks are possible in Atmo and not in freefall. The Sky's Our Playground
  23. See technical images attached showing Atmo vs Track, No Fly Zones, Frontmo and Backmo set up, and an image of a Tandem Atmonauti clearly showing rigs lifting upwards and forwards due to the lift above and slightly ahead of the Atmonaut. The Sky's Our Playground
  24. Once again to reiterate, there is no flat surface deflecting wind in atmo initiating drive. Drive (forward movement) is a function of the angle and lift. Check out the technical drawings on ATMONAUTI.COM to understand it better. In a nutshell: In flight, we utlise lift to overcome gravity (creates a glide angle/flight angle) and the forward movment is a function of the chosen angle and lift. The only deflection is arms and legs which are used for drag (i.e. increase or decrease in forward speed as in head down). The Sky's Our Playground
  25. I'll repeat it again fedykin. The relative wind is from the head towards the feet, in the relative angle in which the atmonaut flies. There is no relative wind from below, as we are not in freefall. As the air breaks over the crest of the head (first point of contact) it moves over the top airfoil surface at a greater speed than the the air directly across the bottom - creating a low pressure zone above, and a pocket of dead air in the curvature around the chest area due to the form which is taken up by the atmonaut i.e. an airfoil. A burble does not necessarily need to be ABOVE and abject as you state, rather a burble is always behind the object IN RESPECT TO THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL. In the case of atmonauti, if the flight angle is 45 degrees, the burble is at 45 degrees too, directly behind the atmonauts direction of travel, which is why we have NO FLY ZONES in frontomauti and backmonauti. GO READ THE TECHNICAL GUIDELINES on ATMONAUTI.COM The Sky's Our Playground