mciocca

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Posts posted by mciocca


  1. Hi, I would say that over the course of an entire jump 90mph is more the norm, however it has been documented (protracks/neptunes etc) that 75/85 mph are achieved briefly in certain sectors of the skydive.
    The Sky's Our Playground

  2. ***you either still don't or won't acknowledge that there are some glaring issues with the statements that have been made.

    Quote

    Lou, no one doubt that with any new development, whether it be scientific, automotive, product orientated that issues may or may not be present.

    To completely overlook all of the positive attributes of any new development would mean progress stops. If all of human kind were like you we'd still be in the dark ages.

    Why dont we rather work together in creating a more amicable forum, one where real ideas can be exchanged, where students can access iformation, and where debates are carried out with the greater good of the sport in mind and not about finding the alpha male. We can do that in other ways, on the ground, in the sky.. you know what i mean.

    ***broke it down to the simplest level in hopes perhaps you both would understand what people have been trying to tell you

    With reference to your use of foul language and insult, thats not gonna do any good, because i cant understand fecal. You speak it well though.

    :P
    The Sky's Our Playground

  3. Here are a couple more hybrid Atmo Wingsuit pics...

    Its quite an amazing site, even if, and i dont mind repeating this, the wingsuiter isnt maxing it...

    It must be said though that the wings are pretty well inflated.:)
    I think these pics arent there to prove that Atmo is throwing out some magic, rather, I think it shows just how incredible our sport has become and how it is evolving, and just how amazing the human body really is.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  4. Hiya Dave,

    You have some good points going.

    One of them is the atmo in breakoff vs track. Its becoming more widely used as a means to increase the time available in breakoff, and it really works well.

    There have been many studies done by independents and Marco Tiezzi etc which added substance to the claims, and Im sure plans are in place to develop these statements in a closely controlled and studied manner in the near future.

    Until then, atmo does offer a new alternative to traditional freefall, and it would be great for more skydivers to give it a well deserved go, with some high level group coaching and instructionals etc.

    Take it from me, it really does amaze when done well....
    The Sky's Our Playground

  5. Heya ZeG

    Check out www.atmonauti.com

    The overriding principle is the exploration of human flight utilising the body as an airfoil to generate lift.

    The atmonaut, due to the lack of a propulsion system, utilises (sacrificing altitude) an angle in search of relative wind with the sensation of this relative wind striking the head and travelling over the human airfoil, generating lift.

    The form is completely unlike tracking.

    The freefall speeds are reduced and freefall times are greatly increased. It is common to reach as little as 75mph - 110mph in atmo, which is slower even than fs, and significantly slower than freeflying.

    It is however not a technique used only in the search of lift, but is used in a number of different body positions, with transitions to and from these body positions in 3 axis, both head first and feet first.

    It is common to fly large linked 3d formations, turn points in ARW (Atmo Relative Work), carve, fly feet first etc.

    It is common to exit 1,5 miles before the dz, and large distances can be covered horizontally.

    Its not difficult to grasp with reduced learning times, but also offers challenging moves and body positions if you're looking for a challenge.
    The Sky's Our Playground

  6. ***What is the name of pete is "relative gravitational wind"

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    Its a term i use to discribe the relative wind/air on our bodies when in freefall "down" the tube. :)
    The relative wind in atmo is at the selected angle of flight, with the sensation of it striking the head first.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  7. Heya pilotdave..

    To explain the term "relative gravitational wind/air":

    Its a term i use to discribe the relative wind (stationary air that we strike as we move through it) when in freefall "down" the tube.

    The relative wind in atmo is at the selected angle of flight, striking the head first as we fly.
    The Sky's Our Playground

  8. ***Hey, what does this mean:

    Atmonauti, due to the reduced air speeds, is a SOCIAL discipline, which is accessible to the masses.

    Quote

    It refers to the reduced freefall rates (and reduced relative air "speed" on the body), and the ease with which the basics of atmo are learnt for 2 reasons:

    1) Increased freefall time (that does not come cheap to many) and thus extended learning time,

    2) Not having to deal with high speed relative wind (as in freeflying) which requires time and maturity to grasp.

    Atmo is also bringing different disciplines together - freeflying, wingsuiting, fs etc and my personal experience has been the awesome jumps with buddies i traditionally greeted on the ground but never jumped with because of their fear of the higher speeds associated with freeflying. For the first time i've had the privelage of doing large atmo formations with all of these unique individuals, in the same skydive.

    Its for this reason that i propose atmo to be a social discipline.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  9. Like Ive told you on other forums, you have nothing positive to add, other than what seems to come naturally to you...insult.

    Lou, you seriously need to watch that mouth of yours bro...and stop insulting your piers.
    The Sky's Our Playground

  10. ***I can show you pictures of me flying in my wingsuit relative to a belly flyer

    Quote

    I think you should post that picture bro. I wouldnt be bragging about "flying" next to a belly flyer in freefall tho.;)

    Whatever the case, Im sure the image I posted clearly indicates the fun to be had in the sky crossing the discipline barrier i.e. atmo and wingsuiting.

    You should want to support this cause, and any cause, that benefits our sport and it's growth, or that brings newcomers to our doorsteps. Its to your benefit as much as mine.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  11. ***Do I really have to explain this to you? It's called a lie, a falsehood, an untrue statement, a deception and in plain English.... bullshit, albeit with a sugar coating. From the grossly erroneous aerodynamics, to the nonsensical use of words and outright tripe. The old saying "you can sugar coat a turd but it's still a turd" is very applicable to what you have presented in this and the other thread

    Quote

    As a moderator, I would have thought your use of foul language would not be acceptable or pardonable.

    You seem to insist on it though.

    Are you unable to accept - and are you so threatened by atmo - that whats being presented is continuely met with nothing more than foul language and insult?

    You need to watch your mouth.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  12. ***Preposterous claims such as this one, which is an absolute falsehood, do not help your cause.

    Quote

    We can hardly say that the wingsuiter in this image is maxing it (rightly so) however its clear that the 2-way Atmo/Wingsuit hybrid is flying and not plummeting.... Absolute falsehood.. Not so sure...

    The Sky's Our Playground

  13. Why does that statement bother you? You've just admited to it yourself, in that you do it too...

    The point is that we do fly with our friends with wingsuits. Frequently...taking docks and having a blast. Its awesome. Skydiving has truly become a "hybrid" mix of disciplines.

    Its a very enjoyable way to lay back and have some fun. And why not? Whoever said we shouldnt mix it up?

    This is NOT to say that Atmonauts and Wingsuiters have the same efficiency in the sky. Its clear that wingsuiting and the art and science with which the suits have been designed and developed is outstanding!

    The point however is that in freefall a wingsuiter would have to be in freefall too to fall proximate to a skydiver, whereas in atmo a degree of flight is truly achievalbe...and i think thats truly amazing.
    The Sky's Our Playground

  14. ***I resent you using this Instructors forum to push you're agenda.

    This is a forum for instructors in specific fields of interest - to exchange ideas and discuss the progress of our sport as a whole.

    The fact that you "resent" the growth of Atmonauti as an area of interest and "resent" the related progression program is an issue you're gonna have to deal with in your own time bro.

    I dont care for your defamatory comments. Keep posting them if it tickles you ;)

    Hope to meet you around a dz sumtime in the future tho... :P
    The Sky's Our Playground

  15. Quote

    Thats great. But lets be honest here, how many skydivers are there in SA? And of those skydivers, how many arsuitere even at a level where they could participate in Atmo

    Quote

    Lou, dont underestimate the skills and talent in South Africa, however small the community. Our swoopers are doing great on the world scene, our wingsuiters are on the world records and attempts, and in atmo we're one of the strongest nations adopting the discipline, and are very competitive pretty much in most other disciplines.

    A South African is currently one of a handful in the world currently proficient at flying atmo feet first and has been very much involved at developing the discipline further.

    3 South Africans are currently on the Atmo World Team and South Africa was represented/competed at the 2007 Atmo Champs.

    The point of this Forum however is SAFETY.

    I dont care for defamatory comments.

    Ultimately its the safe atmo progression I'm/we're seeking.
    The Sky's Our Playground

  16. The only facts we have is the relative wind perpendicular to direction of flight (eg 45 deg), the extended freefall time (50% more than fs, double Freefly), the distances covered (2,5 - 4 km from 14000ft), the inability for trackers to keep with the formation (falling away and behind), the ability to fly with wingsuiters (see footaqe/pics) etc.

    All this and still the ability to fly docks, turn points, fly formations, RW (ARW) in all dimensions.

    We also have the rigs that lift up and FORWARDS against the direction of flight (see pics/footage) suggesting the low pressure zone, and experts which agree human bodies (all objects) can fly if the relative wind breaks over an airfoil shaped body (which in our case does not have propulsion and thus sacrifices altitude - by taking up angle to produce the relative wind - to generate lift).

    Im sure that in the near future we will produce more significant documented (tunnel) info to verify all of this - in the meanwhile...leets have a blast doing it!
    The Sky's Our Playground

  17. All i say is come along and lets have a blast up in the sky together flying the angle, and you'll have a great time doing the Atmo!

    Hope to see you around bro :P

    The Sky's Our Playground

  18. ***the relative wind is still coming from below albeit at a slight angle. I agree an amount is deflected over the top of the head but the majority of it is being deflected by the underside of the flyer.

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    Bro, I have to admit that most of the time when i read these posts Im having a laugh to myself, and wondering how it will feel when one day people look back on the silly things they write as fact when in reality they have no clue...

    :P

    Reading your statement above made me realize that you have no understanding of Atmo. The suggestion that the relative wind is from below with a slight amount deflecting around the head is very far from the truth, and is clearly something only someone who has no atmo experience would say. Its not your fault, its just that you dont know any better since you either havent done atmo or were unable to grasp atmo correctly, leaving you with the wrong 'experience'.

    Whatever the case, you must speak for yourself when you say that in atmo the relative wind strikes you in the face and deflects over your head... I'd say that sounds A LOT like TRACKING ;0)

    For all the students out there reading this, in freefall and in skyflying we are all very aware of the relative wind which we utlise to do the cool stuff we do.

    In atmo, the relative wind is from the head towards the feet (when done correctly), as thousands of atmonauts know well. When attempts are made at confusing and clouding the issue, i recommend trying it for yourself, read up about it or get to your closest instructor.

    The proof is in the footage, in the experience... and in the smiles all round...

    :ph34r:

    The Sky's Our Playground

  19. Hey bro you just put a big smile on my face....cheers to you for comparing skydiving to sex bro ;0) he he...

    On a serious note, what I'm trying to put across is that tracking and atmo differ considerably in terms of technique, set up, ability to dock, ability to do transitions on 3 axis etc.

    In the sky we often find that students/new comers to atmo revert to tracking when they cannot get the atmo correct, and fall away from the formation not to be seen again. Im also referring to experienced skydivers who do much tracking. Only when they grasp atmo and set up correctly and are able to work with the relative wind from the head towards the feet are they able to fly with the formation.

    This is the most common problem with first time atmo skyflyers, reverting back to familiar tracking positions and falling away and behind the formation.
    The Sky's Our Playground

  20. Heya,

    I agree that 45 degrees is about optimum, which is what Marco Tiezzi and Atmo has been preaching for almost a decade now so Im glad to agree ;0)

    I think it better to refer to angled flight as Atmo in order to reduce the amount of confusion going on, since this is what was developed and presented to the skydiving community.

    Tracking is purely the SPILLING of air with no flight as such, and whereas atmo teaches the flyer to look towards the rear setting up in front in order to achieve the 45 degrees we refer to. This, in a nutshell is Atmo, not tracking.

    I do feel that sufficient pictures have already been posted clearly showing direction of travel and the opposite direction of trailing material, so i dont feel we need to rehash this one. I think we can pretty much leave it to the opinion of individual jumpers now
    :ph34r:

    The Sky's Our Playground

  21. ***It is also very interesting that random individuals like myself and andy newell and marc arnold etc... all appear to have a better grasp of the physics involved than the supposed inventor.

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    Wow bro, that has got to be the single most amazing claim i've seen you post, and you've posted quite a number. I think you've just made it into the skygods journal. Congratulations.

    PS Badmouthing and disrespecting your fellow community members is NOT a good idea bro. And you just keep at it. You simply wont watch your "mouth" will you? You've become way too personal in your attacks, hiding behind your incompetencies.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  22. ...."Hmmm, I thought that both myself and NWpoul have shown with our last few posts that the relative wind in most cases is still coming from below albeit at a slight angle"....

    I dont think NWpoul would agree with you since what you're saying here is that we do not have relative wind striking the head first and breaking over the body? If you're saying that i think you'd be very wrong, as we utilise this relative wind each time we do atmo, and it is clearly felt. Maybe NWpoul would like to comment on this.

    I seriously think its time for you to come and do some atmo and see for yourself... ;0) Id love for you to come along and join us.

    You may well change your mind
    :P


    ...."Freeflying is exactly what its says and is a very simple concept"...

    You must appreciate that for years when freeflying was down the tube (perpendicular to the ground) that we were not flying whatsoever. It was indeed the incorrect term in my humble opinion as it suggested to a novice that we were flying when in fact we were falling.

    i agree with the discription that atmonauti is freeflying in 3d.

    However it is the use of the term flying (in free"flying") that i think clouds the point in that we are falling when we do so. In recent times all aspects of skydiving have joined the freeflying camp to include atmonauti.

    Thats ok. The problem here is that with our current progressions in AE/FF it does not take into account flight/movement across the ground and the challenges/differences this poses to include flight paths/body techniques etc. To include Atmo in AE would mean that it could be coached using the same progression structure, which it cannot. It requires a new set of skills and understanding.

    I just think its time we separate falling down the tube with flying in a custom tube (lets call it movement across and in relation to the ground), and use the correct terminology now that times have progressed.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  23. No, there are not few and far in between pics as you say..... There are many examples of this.. ;0)

    Here are some more pics if you like. PS Look also at the ribbons and the direction of the ribbons in relation to trajectory.:P

    Please note of course that in atmo the point is not to fly at maximum efficiency and speed, as this would mean flying with as little drag as possible, whereby arms/legs etc cannot be used for docks and links.

    The intermediate speed is chosen which allows for forward speed changes in the direction of flight, i.e. slowing down with more "arms/legs" and speeding up with less "arms/legs", thus a more efficient form of flight is achievable when high speed and low drag configurations are taken up flying in proximity only.

    The Sky's Our Playground

  24. Atmonauti, whether one accepts it or not, requires a brand new set of skills, understanding and techniques for them to be efficient and done safely.

    There are a new set of safety standards which are not applicable in freefall down the tube.

    We need to recognize the need to formalise new disciplines for these reasons, and not confuse the issue with lift/spilling air etc etc. The overriding point of departure should be to differentiate and implement safety standards and procedures specific to horizontal 3d travel.
    The Sky's Our Playground