peckerhead

Worth repeating.

I have made my decision Derek and it won't change. I will stand by Bob and Duanesburg, if you want to take the other side then that is your business. In my opinion you have no integrity, stay in your tunnel where you can be safe. You have been pestering me all day long and quite frankly I have had enough. I get it, you don't jump anymore and you hate skydivers. You hate USPA. whatever.... You really need to get a life dude.

It went into the gas tank, airframe, powerplant, equipment, light bulbs, refridgerator, etc. It is really not that hard to figure out if you think about it and don't have an axe to grind. If there was a go around you probably could show a loss.

Do you know the details of the first incident? From what I have gathered it sounds like a botched demo and one of the jumpers had a reserve out of date. The FAA decided that the demo was "for hire" so it needed a commercial pilot. After that things resumed as normal with a "shared use" waiver. Before people start talking out of thier ass please look into the facts. Remember the incident a few years back in Oregon where the plane went in with no one on board? That was a private pilot at the controls and the FAA ruled it was perfectly legal because of the "shared use" waiver. The pilot made his first jump and the plane was destroyed. Look it up! Legal and prudent are not the same thing. I do not believe Bob Rawlins broke any laws and until proven guilty in a court of law he has done no harm. "Shared use" means nobody profits from the flight and yes it IS LEGAL! I will not run and hide, I am going to stand up for Bob! This was not his fault and some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for running to the other side.

You have been jumping 8 years, Bob has been jumping 37 years. Keep it up, you only have 29 years to go.

Thanks Strato, I always enjoy your pep talks.

Sorry Michael, but I will not throw someone under the bus without knowing all the facts. It seems like some people here have an ax to grind. If you are not one of them then I appologize. Let's let the dust settle, OK?

Does not sound like a skydiver to me.

Ok, I'm not Sparky but I'd like to respond. I thought skydiving was self regulating and self policing? So when were people going to bring this up and get it straightened out? And let me say I've been on some planes with some "old timers" that scared the shit out of me too! It goes both ways. I'd like to have experienced people be the example on how to follow the rules and operate above board that way they can expect the people around them to operate above board. When we accept a little violation there and a little violation here where does it end? There are minor infractions and major infractions I'll agree. But in my book this is a MAJOR infraction. And the FAA usually thinks so too. You want more FAA scrutiny? Stuff like this happening is EXACTLY what is going to bring more of it on. It's just going to take the right Inspector who's buddies with the right Senator to get things changed. Are we going to clean our own house or have others do it for us? No one is turning on anyone other than someone clearly violating the FARs in a big way for a lot of years. What else was overlooked? It can only leave me wondering. Get your house in order and it takes away ALL of these questions. You people out there listening? I hope so. I totally agree with you Chris, if we don't police ourselves then someone else will step in and it usually takes an incident to get the "ahem" conversation going. But in this particular case we get so much knee jerk reaction that most people lose sight of reality. Lets say you have a large commercial dropzone that does everything by the book and has 10 fatalities over a ten year period... no problem right? But then some whacko kills himself at a small Dz where fatalities are rare or unheard of and now all of the sudden we have to act? Lets all just jump on the bandwagon and fry this guy? Sorry, but rules are broken every day in this sport. Sometimes it means nothing and other times people scramble to make sure thier logs are complete. That is reality. Faa offices also interpret rules differently from region to region. I know for a fact the some DZ's have been given the green light to use private pilots as long as they were not paid while others considered building flight hours as compensation. What may be considered illegal in New York might get by as A-OK in Montana. Wink-wink Would a different certificate changed the outcome of this incident? Would a pilot rig changed the outcome of this incident? Would an AAd made things possibly worse? I mean come on, we could what if this thing to death but one thing is for sure in my mind and that is the pilot was not responsible. He did not push the guy out, he did not want to kill him, he wanted to save his life by landing him safely to the ground. That was Bobs intention from the moment he let that dork get on the plane. We have to stand behind Bob and that is what I intend to do. This was not his fault! Can you even imagine what it would be like to land that 182 after what just happened? Show just a little compassion people.

You did not answer My question Michael...

This is complete bull shit. As a pilot and a jumper with over 30 years in the sport my informed judgment is that this guy lied to his customers and cheated them every time he charged for his services knowing full well he was not qualified to provide them. Get you head out of the sand and see the facts for what they are. Sparky Ever punch a cloud Michael? Ever break a rule? Of course not! You live in a perfect world. 30 years and you aint never done anything wrong? Nothing? Wow! You are a saint and we should all bow down to you! If your best friend gets busted do you run to the prosecution? Do you call the FAA everytime you see us break a rule? It happens every day! You just lost all my respect dude. People are grieving and lives are being shattered and you seem to want to help the other side. What is the matter with you?

Playing devils advocate here but let me ask you this; Would you rather jump from a plane with a pilot who has over 10,000 hours flying jumpers and a private license...(who may also have thousands of skydives as well) Or some green horn rookie with a commercial rating who has never flown a jump pane before? Seems like a no brainer to me. I know this is not a real popular thing to admit to but I have made over 1000 jumps with a private pilot at the controls without incident and have been scared shitless by some hotshot with a commercial rating. I am just dumbfounded how our once tight knit community is so fucking quick to judge and hang one of our own out to dry just because some knit-wit decided to kill himself and take us with him. If our standards are you will never jump anywhere that someone has broke a rule or made a mistake then we should all sell our gear and take up bowling because EVERYBODY has fucked up at least once. Ever punch a cloud? You broke the law! Turn the pilot in. Call the fucking FAA! Instead of asking what USPA should do TO this guy why is no one asking what we should do for this guy? Lets just give him a trial here on this kangaroo court called DZ.COM where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent. Who fucking cares how many people he has brought into the sport or how many contributions he has made. He is a witch....Burn the witch! Sparky you know I agree with you most of the time but please tell me when did turning on each other ever benefit the sport of skydiving?

I thought we quit doing this back in the 80's after several fatalities. In almost every case it was the good samaritan that died and the jumper with a real emergency who lived. I have seen it done sucsessfully, I was at a boogie one time where a guy snagged a cutaway with his foot and kicked it off into the peas right before landing. Several of the people on the load cheered at his amazing skill. The owner of the canopy landed her reserve and went over to the "hero" and said ( I am not making this up) " thanks alot you stupid asshole, you could have got yourself killed!" No ones gear is worth your life.

Thanks, I jumped with Jack back in the 80's so I will definetley look him up. Are there two DZ's at Hinkley now? Does anyone still jump at Heber City?

Just curious what is going on these days, I have not jumped there in a long time and I might be there this summer. Most of the threads seem to be old so please don't be a "do a search nazi" (I hate the "do a search nazis") Not down south (Moab) but in the SLC area. Thanks!

Well, I do remember DB Cooper was a very popular bonfire topic back in the 80's since the hijack happened not too far from the DZ. I am sure we talked about it but I don't remember what Beasleys views were, I have not seen Rick in years. I don't think any of us suspected Ted, we just assumed it was Ralph

Some other interesting trivia....The author, Rick Beasley, is also a skydiver. (or at least he used to be) I used to jump with him at Ralph Hatleys DZ in Eagle Creek Oregon. Back in the 80's he wrote a column called the skydivers diary in the local Estacada newspaper which was located just a few miles from the DZ. Rick is also very familiar with Ted Mayfield and I am pretty sure he jumped at Teds DZ as well. He wrote many articles for the paper but the skydivers diary was written under the pen name "Rip Kord"

Bob Vance was my first jump instructor in the spring of 1981 just two years before the incident. I remember watching the wrap on the evening news at the DZ. They were landing a 3 stack at a demo. As I remember they were overshooting the intended landing area so they started riding brakes to slow the stack down. The 5 cell was on top and it stalled. It turned into an ugly spinning mess real fast. I think two of them cutaway and the third rode the wrap in. They were very low, 300 feet maybe?

Are you asking what happens if you release the brakes during a snivel? If you pull them down evenly and let up at the same time it should make the canopy inflate faster. The nose goes down and the tail goes up. The reason we stow the brakes is because we don't want it to open too fast. History lesson Before ZP it was common procedure to pop your brakes to stop a snivel. I had a Raven that would snivel for a thousand feet and I jumped a Unit that would probably not open at all unless you popped the brakes. Some things change but some things don't.

I stand corrected, I was only 15 and not old enough to jump yet. I started jumping at Ralphs in 1981.

I have heard the story many times Jerry, my cousin was one of the students Donkey put out before going in. He was jumpmaster on a load of static lines. As I recall it was a needle fold bridle in a bungee closing loop. (no pin) If he would have cut away first the same thing would likely have happened. He would have been just fine riding them both down and not cutting away at all. I have seen many round/square two out landings without incident. Two squares is a bit more tricky but the same principle applies. On a side note I am pretty sure that was in 77 and remains the one and only fatality at Beaver Oaks in over 31 years.

Anything that is still in production is hardly A "blast from the past" Is your supplier a teenager? Dayum! I still jump Diablos and Hornets! Sniff, they just don't make em like that no more!

Doesn't this belong in the "everything that is new is old" thread? It's like when I tell the new crew puppies we used to do crw with rounds and they think I am retarded. Sad to say but with the new generation skydiving began when they started jumping. More later,

Wow! Why didn't I think of that!

Well said Kevin! I could not have said it better! What is interesting to me is that most old time jumpers seem to favor treating a pilot chute in tow as a total and pull the reserve. The younger crowd thinks you cutaway first and then pull the reserve no matter what. Since RSL's have become almost standard on every rig my concern is that in a total situation they may think a cutaway will also deploy the reserve. It seems that people who have seen gear transition over the years have a bit better understanding on how things work. I was always taught a pilot chute in tow is a total malfunction, get flat, pull your reserve. Stop the ride and then sort things out. This is still what I teach. There is nothing out to cut away so don't waste precious time. Two out situations are usually manageable as long as both canopies are still attached to the harness. I think you have a greater chance of entanglement if the main is disconnected with no anchor point. Different situations require different responses, no reason to cut away a total and in my opinion you are likely to make things worse. That said what ever method you decide stick with it and have a plan. More later,