Mikko

Can you elaborate how gswoop exactly determines a) start and end of rollout? b) time aloft during swoop? And does it make any difference if you have the gates data set? Also another question, 2G or 4G mode for the acceleration? Is 2G enough? //Mikko

Just like Ian says, it's not just the initiation altitude, You need to be able to judge whether things are going ok in the middle of the turn as well. Even though the digital altimeter would give you exactly the same altitude every time for initiating your turn, sometimes you just get the canopy diving more, turn a bit slower, the conditions have changed...and you'll end up in a situation where you need to move your hands to the rears and hurry for the level out already during the last 90 deg of your turn, and if you don't, let's hope you realize to stab the brakes when coming out of the turn soooo low. There's a big difference between swooping like: 1. OK, we got good initiation altitude, TURN!!!!!, (...not watching down...maybe eyes closed ;-) brains turned off etc...)....and after the turn.....let's see what we got this time, time to save yourself or to hide yourself because of levelling out in 100ft? ...or you're just doing those nanosecond 270's (from 350ft maybe) that'll surprise you every time, especially that one time when it happened to be just right, it was so scary, but boy what a speed! 2. OK. we got good initiation altitude, start the dive/turn, watching down and where you're going...ok it looks like I'm going a bit low...need to speed up the rate of turn a little.....ok it seems I need to speed it up a little more....looks good, turn stops hands on rears...ooo..it seems I did the turn so fast I only need a quick touch on the rears to level out... Having this kind of approach for example being too low is rarely noticed just suddenly, but usually well before it even becomes a problem.

A freeflyer friend several years ago before an RW jump: "I can't wear this (RW suit). If I go in, everybody's going to remember me as a bellyflyer"

AAD mandatory??

There's no rule, except that 300 is not enough for a 270. In competitions, you might see Marat going with a 450 from 1500+ and Vaughan do 990 from somewhat less than that. And also I think 450 is the most common turn in big competitions these days. I haven't seen anyone doing more that 990 in competitions, but there's a reason for that. The skilled guys can make a 450 or 630, or even 270 dive enough, and they would only get marginal benefits doing more rotations, which are of course making it harder with accuracy. This is not only a question of wingloading and the canopy model, but also the personal style of the swooper. I pushed my turn altitude with 450 turn up by 400ft in a year from about 950ft to about 1350ft with the same canopy and wingloading. The turn altitude is not something you can just decide, it takes time and like hundreds of jumps to get it right, and to be able to adjust it in action. Then there are some who can do this.. **don't try this at home** but in Spain a few years ago I saw Vaughan do a pretty tight 990 with excellent results, and later on he told me he was going for 630, but got a thermal pushing him up and not to lose any altitude before the turn.....and he went to do another rotation and 990. But I don't know anyone else with more aggressive rotation than his, and the capability to control all that.

..and in addition in competition swoopers who haven't trained downwind swoops to the gates very often start their turns a way too close to the gates, which makes them to try to dive more to hit the gates up to the point where the canopy doesn't have time to recover anymore - i.e. target fixation.

BMFin is absolute right in this.. Think about two different scenarios. In both scenarios the swooper is starting the recovery arc from full dive on heading with the course, let's say 4 seconds before hitting the gates, and the distance measured on the ground he is behind the gates is 50 meters in no wind conditions. 1. Downwind 5 meters/second: The altitude starting the recovery is the same, the time to recover is the same, BUT, the distance covered on the ground in recovery is about 50m+5meters/second x 4 seconds = 70 meters. 2. Headwind 5 meters/second: Altitude, time etc. once again the same but the distance covered on the ground before hitting the gates/levelling out is 50m-20m=30meters. Now I feel concerned if someone doesn't realise the difference in the visual sight you get when you cover 30m vs. 70m during the recovery. Looking completery different to me, although the flight angle of the canopy when compared to the ground level still looks the same if you for example take a still picture. But when in motion, the sight is different. What BMFin means is that if you always train headwind, you get used to that during a normal recorevy you cover for example 30 meters. Then during a downwind landing it looks like you're levelling out faster, and it may make you try to dive more, even though the actual flight path inside the moving airmass is still the same. This is why I think there's an additional risk involved if you're don't know about the difference and haven't trained downwind swoops.

The altitude loss doesn't change (if you're doing the same turn), but...Like Ian said, the visual changes a lot. Landing headwind gives you a lot different visual of recovery arc than downwind. This is the thing that makes it confusing. For example: Let's assume in your normal recovery you fly forward (horizontal component) 50 meters on a no-wind day. And let's assume that landing downwind and it takes about 4 seconds to recover from the vertical dive-->the horizontal distance traveled (compared to the ground) during recovery is 50m + downwind x 4seconds. Landing headwind it's 50m - headwind x 4 seconds. If the wind is 5 meters/second downwind then horizontal component of the recovery arc is 70m on the ground, if headwind, its only 30m. This makes a huge difference in the visual you get during the recovery. When landing downwind, if the recovery looks like the one when landing headwind...you are a way too low already.

With experience, you know pretty well how much the weather and altitude affects your initiation point. (because having skydived on such a many dropzones before) With experience, you are also able to find out if you turned too high or too low in the middle of the turn.(because of having been both too low and too high so many times before) With experience, you are also able to adjust your turn better when you know that you're too high or low. (because of having corrected your own misjudgements so many times during the turn) With all that experience you can get it right on the first one. Or at least miss it so little that no one notices.

Just found out from an older thread that foretrex gps logger with paralog software could do the trick. Any experience of using this configuration for analyzing swoop turns?

Does anyone know any device such as a gps/altitude logger in a reasonable price range that could be used for analyzing different kind of turns for swooping? Altitude loss, speed, position etc.? Most of the gps/altitude loggers seem to be inaccurate for this purpose because they are only logging once per second.

Please, let the people who know me and coach me (i.e local canopy experts.) do the judgment, they can and will stop me jumping my canopy if they feel it's necessary. If they don't, they will do their best to coach me in a way that I'll be flying safe. And I'll train enough to fly safe and not to risk anyone elses, or my own safety. Thanks. Blue Swoops Mikko (Dereck, explanations are never short. I sent you a private message.)

....you're welcome. Had to delete it. It seems you can't post something like that here at www.thetruth.com (sorry, nothing to do with the actual website) without having someone to comment it like that. Sorry, I just wanted to say it's tricky flying inside a cloud (it might be a plane too).

Yep. Been there with my 1.8 loaded katana. A bit scary...

Haven't tried that, I just like checking the altitude from my good old barigo..(Using optima for the swoop pattern anyway.) Got also answer from manufacturer, and there isn't such an option in the altitrack.