Mockingbird

It is because of snide comments like these that many Christians find themselves at the losing end of intellectual debates about religion. If they dropped the holier than thou attitude they would find that most atheists are passive in their non-belief. They don't care that someone is a Christian. But when some Christians take it upon themselves to point out how Christianity is right, and everything non-Christian is wrong, they open themselves up to justified criticisms. Gee, that didn't come across as snide to me ('course I agree with him )! But how can a "snide comment" put a Christian on "the losing end of an intellectual debate"? It's funny tho' in a way-- I mean, the way each side views each other. We come across to you (unbeknownst to us) as "holier than thou" because we are confident about what the Bible tells us and we tell you so (in no uncertain terms!); you come across to us as "smugger than thou" because you've given the subject some thought and have your mind made up (sometimes backing that up with $6000 words). Respect is often lacking on both sides. It would be nice if we could give each other the benefit of the doubt. And for the record, I make every effort to do that, until I've exchanged comments with the same person numerous times and it becomes obvious to me that he/she IS being insulting. Of course I'm thinking of no one in particular .

How many of those said that he was the son of [g/G]od? None; they are non-Christian sources, and some could even be considered anti-Christian. But the point is this: They are considered as objective sources which mention Jesus Christ, which tells us that yes, he did exist... and a lot more. In fact, if you put together all the mentions of him by these non-Christian sources, you can piece together his life as told in the New Testament. I just found the list of things these non-Christian sources mention about him (putting the info from all of them together): 1. Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar (the Roman emperor) 2. He was said to have lived a virtuous life 3. He was "a wonder worker" 4. He had a brother named James 5. He was hailed as the "messiah" or "christ" ("christ"= "messiah")(Note: the sources don't affirm that He WAS the Messiah; they simply affirm that he was hailed as such.) 6. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate (the Roman procurator/ governor in Judea under Tiberius Caesar) 7. He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover 8. Darkness and an "earthquake" occurred at the time he died 9. His disciples believed he rose from the dead 10. His disciples were willing to die for that belief 11. Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome 12. His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God. Considering those references (again, by objective sources), it's unreasonable to claim He never existed. More importantly, they affirm the New Testament record about Jesus. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I think Christians hold the Bible to unreasonably low standards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the Bible falls well short. I'm sorry if you took offence but you are trying to mislead people. You objected to my points that the Bible was written after the fact and not by eye witnesses then proceed to state that it was actually written after the fact and not by eye witnesses. I don't know how you cannot see that. I will retrace my steps in the conversation to find out what you're talking about... You say I'm "trying to mislead people." Surely you must know that's not true at all; misleading people goes against my grain, which is why I study and read. My concern is NOT to mislead! If in fact I do mislead, I can only blame it on poor communication, not intent. But as for holding the Bible to low standards, of course I couldn't disagree more. Many scholarly works have been written on biblical and textual criticism; I think we take it very seriously. I guess this is another point we'll have to disagree on. I admit I don't know everything, but I do study this aspect of Christianity a bit more than the average person. There's always more to learn and investigate. There's no end to learning, especially IMO, when it comes to the Bible. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Maybe someday you'll understand. Maybe still not agree, but at least understand. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

"THE reason" nice. I think that if you took 10000 people that believed in a deity of some sort (I don't care either way), you'd get 10000 reasons. Some that align with that description, some that are nowhere near it, and everything in between. To think one can get into their minds and simplify so much and so negatively is nuts. But it is easier to just put everyone in a uniform bucket and then proceed to spit into it. Heck, it's even easier with policial groups, races, etc..... I like it, it makes me feel special. I can cling to it, like my agnosticism, and my guns and my general disdain for small ratlike dogs. So, I think that generically belittling another's beliefs just because they disagree with yours, by making it about fear or something negative, is etc, etc, etc, etc so there I like what Rehmwa said here because even tho' he may be agnostic, he's for being respectful of other people's beliefs. That's rare these days. You can disagree without being snotty and smart-mouthed. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Hi, flygirl. Hey, if you're already relaxed, then you're way ahead of where I was at your stage!!!!! Way to GO!! Have fun, be safe, and keep us posted on your progress. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

That's JO sefus, Ryno! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Lists, please. Non-Christian sources mentioning Jesus: Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucin, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

1. We know beyond a reasonable doubt, if not the shadow of a doubt, who wrote the gospels which make up the new testament. Critics (A.K.A. conspiracy theorists) of the gospels are the ones who have cast doubt on who the authors were by fabricating and/or manipulating facts. There's no reason to believe that they weren't written by the authors they've traditionally been attributed to. 2. There is other contemporary literature about or mentioning the life of Christ. There are four gospels. That's four separate books! (People tend to think of the Bible as one book. It's actually 66 books bound together in one volume. It's like an anthology.) Four books about Jesus' life which are just different enough to lend credibility to their originality, and just enough alike to present a unified message. Christ is also mentioned by non-Christian historians writing within 150 years of his life-- more historians mentioned Jesus than mentioned the Roman Emperor at the time, Tiberius Caesar. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Mockingbird, 40-65 years after the fact (some are thought to have taken longer) is the same as not written at the time. Consulted with eye witnesses means not an eye witness and that is hearsay. You object to my points, then agree with them. You really need to start using the accepted definitions of words. If you keep changing what a word means as you have done here, you end up disagreeing with yourself and quite honestly, no one can make that look smart. Jack, AD 40- AD 65 is only 7 to 30 years after the ascension of Christ. That is not a long time at all when you consider the times and what they had to work with back then. Consulting with an eyewitness would take a bit longer than shooting emails back and forth, especially if travel was involved. No ball point pens and Big Chief tablets to jot things down. But you see, if it had just been 3 years, you would still have a problem with that interval, right? I mean, that's how it seems to me. Second, as for consulting with an eyewitness for some of the events, being considered "hearsay" in a court--- this isn't a trial. Historians have always consulted with other sources-- those who were present. If The Gospel of Mark was written by a man, John Mark, who assisted Peter (who WAS in Jesus' inner circle of disciples) and got his information from Peter, I have no problem with that, nor would you if it were concerning any other historical account... but it's about Christ who atoned for our sin--- is it Christ saying that he is the Son of God that people have a problem with? or is it admitting that we have sin that needed atoning? I don't know which, but I do know that the records of the gospel authors are held to unreasonable standards, standards not put on any other piece of literature or history. Third, I don't care how "smart" I look, Jack. I only care that I don't mislead anyone, or say anything that isn't based on fact/reality. You said I've "re-defined" words. What words are you referring to? "Eyewitness"? How have I re-defined it? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

1) is wrong-- they were all completed between AD 40 and AD 65. 2) is untrue. Most were eye-witnesses, or consulted with an eye-witness (one of the disciples) 3) is TRUE 4) is untrue. There are nearly 5700 handwritten Greek manuscripts of the N.T. There are an additional 9000 manuscripts in other languages (translations), for example, Syriac, Coptic, Latin, Arabic. Some of the 15000 manuscripts are complete bibles, others are individual books of the bible, or pages, and just a few are fragments. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

So, can we assume, based on your assertion that religion is necessary for virtue, as well as your PA, that you are an atheist? No kidding... MAN! Unbelievable. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

I guess you haven't read it then. BTW, how many sources, besides the form itself, does your birth certificate claim to have? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Would you call my observation that you twist words a personal attack? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

That makes no sense. Of course they are. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

So, let's tear up your birth certificate. It must have very limited credibility. Let's tear up all the old censuses from the time before computers and high tech. Let's smash up all the bones and clay that archeologists have dug up. By your standards, they all have very limited credibility. Let's not believe anything that historians recorded before... let's pull a date out of the air... A.D. 1500. Let's burn all records that don't have other records to substantiate them. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

What makes you think that? I could point out that the writers DID do their research (so they claim, and I see no reason not to believe them), but something tells me you wouldn't go for that. Right? You'll come up with another objection. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

C

Now I understand what it is about Relativism which appeals to you. Not only do you not have to believe in Absolute Truth, but you can also twist everyone else's words to make you feel good, or clever, or whatever you feel like being at the time. Your manipulation of the facts is only hurting yourself, tho'. Or, are you just a big ol' warm fuzzy peacemaker-at-heart that wants everyone to feel like they're right and feel good all at the same time? "All we need is love," right, Bill? This kind of love is worthless without truth. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Oh sure... or the translations, or the 'whatever else' you can think of to make you feel comfortable in not acknowledging the validity of the bible... Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

There are none so blind as those who will not see. They have a bias which prevents them from acknowledging design. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Why??? Becuase what you point out as being eyewitness testimony does not in any way shape or form qualify as eyewitness testimony. You don't have any evidence. If you were to take a book into court and try to submit it as eyewitness testimony the judge would dismiss the book and ask you where your eyewitness is. An eyewitness is a person not a book. You can't question a book and get an answer. So, we may as well throw out all the history and biography books ever written. And even your birth certificate. Would you insist on having the doctor who delivered you on hand to give his verbal eye-witness testimony that you were born in a certain hospital on a certain date? Why not just admit that you don't want to believe the record of Christ's life and be done with it? 'Cos no matter what I give you as support for the written record, you will find fault with it or raise the bar higher and higher. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

What is a pff jump? Have you ever done a tandem jump? Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Tip to beat all tips: Smile in the plane and smile in the air-- it will relax you. Every difficulty I had in AFF had do to with being tense.

It's hard NOT to talk about it, isn't it? Welcome to dropzone.com, Harris. Your signature line reminded me of this drawing by Mary Engelbreit (attached). Can't wait to hear of your AFF progress! I'm out of the air until my new container arrives sometime this summer!! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?"