TVPB

To be technical, a "planed stack" is an oxymoron. A plane is where feet are at risers, a stack is where feet are at bottom skin. Planes are more stable because the canopy is supported by the lines of the canopy above, whereas on a stack the canopy can pivot around the feet.

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...with at least two audibles though

One audible to go off at 6500, second at 5000, third at 3500. Audibles airgasm activated of course!

Lets see how you perform now!

Or will the audibles not go off and you go in??

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interesting, I didn't realize that a DZO had authority to regulate airspace or activities therein. i guess the DZO can deny you lift or landing rights but banning CReW would fall to the FAA would it not?

It's more a case of, you own the DZ, you can do whatever the hell you like there (within the rules of FAA / USPA / ETC).

There are quite a few drop zones around that are either against CRW or not very cooperative with CRW jumpers.

Thanks for the post Koen.

Just FYI - I am not saying anything against you. I am just highlighting the dangers of snag points. No one is immune to this. It is a good learning. Glad to see all turned out OK.

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first, it's the AFF main side forgetting-not thinking about that snag/bridle issue not the student

OK - the student is inexperienced and the instructor should know better, BUT
.
.
.
.
.
.
You can still think for yourself - and recognize hazards and do something about them.

Give a student some responsibility and authority and they will blossom into something much better much sooner.

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Get a grip

How about - 'the female BASE jumper that died was a very good friend of mine".

Is that enough grip for you?

Perhaps you should release a little grip. Allow the blood to flow to the other brain.

Come withe me on a safety journey.



Now some feedback about risk management and being open minded and willing to learn. You should try it. It may not give you eternal life, but it certainly increases the probability of longer duration.

"If I can save ONE person, then it will all be worth it".

"All trends start with only a single event or incident".

"Not recognizing risk, or shrugging it off, is the first step towards a near miss, which is followed by an incident, which eventually leads to something a lot more serious if not managed early".

"Teaching people to be careful and to recognize hazards is building a safety culture. It does not stop activity, rather it allows people to progress further, and to manage their risks at higher levels. The consequence or likelihood does not increase, but the fun does".

"Having your head firmly planted up your bottom stinks'. It's no fun!


p.s. snags and catches are becoming very common - everything from oxygen hoses on high altitude record attempts to bridle entanglements. You should try grounding your opinion on fact - and spend the rest of your time absorbing the fundamental message - snag points (regardless of what brand / style of camera you GoPro fan you) are not good. This is OLD news.

Focus dude. Call him a 250 jump wonder that has just started wearing camera. Call him skygod. Regardless of his talent and experience, he has a bridle snagged on his gear. The point about 50 jumps is that too many inexperienced are wearing these cameras and the skydiving community is allowing this to happen because the camera is "considered small".

Not sure who moderated that one - but someone else's bridle wrapped around the camera on your helmet rates as an incident to me (yes, I can see it's relevance in the photo group, but).

The other factor is that most GoPro's are not really worn by "photographers" but rather, just participants on skydives.

It's only a matter of who and when and where?

Please prove me wrong people's. I love being wrong when thinking of bad shit.

Someone needs to come up with a snag free / reduced mount and we need to keep students off this gear.

We learned in the old days about hooks on boots, cutaways on camera helmets, and minimising catch points. Now we have gone backwards again.

"Oooohhh but it so small and cute and I love the photo's of myself"!

It is a great camera. I have one.

Just be careful out there.

Some more links:

http://ozcrw.tripod.com/

This will eventually be updated and put onto the following link:

http://www.canopyformation.org/

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I do not have a lot of friends who have the same interests so it's going to be a bit difficult getting people to jump with u

Ha ha. Welcome to skydiving. You are heading down the road of so many others. As your interests, priorities, etc, change, so does your company. Your true friends will always remain, the acquaintances you will slowly lose touch with. In their place will be new friends and acquaintances that will share your dreams and passions.

Negotiate the deal on your package - i.e. ask how much to pay for the whole AFF course up front.

The other tip I can give you is this - do not let anyone, including friends and relatives, to rob you of YOUR dreams. If you really want this, go for it. If they drag along that is a wonderful bonus. IF they don't, you just have to prioritize your time better with them.

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At 19 tandems I am a laughing stock but I do not care. Its fun.

19 tandems is much better than none!
p.s. waiting for the post that says: "have finished AFF".

happyskies!
Welcome to skydiving.

Suggestion:
1 - if $$ is an issue, beg, borrow, and steal enough money to complete a full AFF course. Do it all in the shortest time possible - i.e. over a few weeks, not one jump at a time. Negotiate with the Drop Zone for a better price to pay all up front. Offer to do some work for them (cleaning / admin / manifest / whatever). Then take a break (not too long) to save for the next stage - refresher + B- rels. Once you have completed this you will have your license.

Set up a club.

Get customers for the DZ and ask for a commission in jumps (you could get better value this way if you negotiate well).

This will all give you good skill building experience and get you the jumps as well.

Good luck. CYA in the air.

Oh well, yet another dysfunctional CRW/CF team.

Can I have the video of you guys sorting out your grievances in the air?

Orygun - don't take shit from any of them. Just dock hard, don't dock straight, and give em hell!

From one of the Organizers:
- - - - - - - - - -
Hello to all CReW People,

Just a quick email to you all to gauge your interest in the running of the Next Australian CReW Record Attempt 50 way Diamond

What Myself,Sarge and Higgo
Are looking for as Organisers in running this event is your interest - so id like to hear from EVERYONE of you on this as to whether you're interested in participating and putting the time,effort and training thats need to make this 50 way happen ?
Please email me back letting me no if your in or out we would be looking at running the record Oct/Nov 2011 at a Dz to be announced at a later date but it will be somewhere on the east coast. please forward this email to anyone you may know that would be interested in being a part of the attempt also please look at our web site that Tom Begic has set up

http://cf50way.canopyformation.org/ - record attempt website

www.canopyformation.org - canopy formation website - under development

The plan will be to have Chris Gay and one or two other coach's to come out to make the 50 way happen.
We will need a pool of 60 people to make a 50 way happen if/when the 50 is reached then we would look at swapping people out and bringing in new people so that everyone get a chance to be a part of the record.
We need 3 turbine aircraft to give us the lift capacity for a 50 way with 3 camera
we would be looking at running crw seminar in the several months leading up to the attempt
We have the people and the talent to make this happen all we need is for you to show your interest so we can start as Organisers to set the very large wheels in motion to make this 50 way Diamond happen.

Mitch McMartin
+ 61 418 561 543
[email protected]

GO FURY!

For those interested, following is a link to the article about our previous 36 way record:

http://www.skydiver.com.au//onlinemag.aspx?&bkcode=00001417731dbc8947b12&langid=en

and the official website is at:

http://www.canopyformation.org/

Hi Folks

This is just to get the juices pumping.
The 2011 Australian Big Way record attempt is being planned as we speak.
We are allowed up to 25% non Australians on this record.
Anyone want a record breaking holiday to Australia? Contact the organisers.

If you want to keep posted or just support the attempt, check out:

Aussie CRW - CF Record Facebook Supporters Site

Aussie CRW - CF Record Official Website - this has info from our 36 way record at the moment - soon to be updated for planned 50 WAY.

More info coming soon with specific dates, people, etc....

Stay tuned.

Feel free to share amongst other CRW jumpers and supporters.

Tom

Hi Folks

There are a couple of Aussies who are interested in buying PD Lightnings in preparation for the upcoming Australian Record attempt.

If anyone has one they may be interested in selling please reply with:

Size:
Trim (i.e. World Record / Sequential / Rotations / Other):
Number of Jumps Total:
Number of Jumps Since Reline:
Asking Price:
Shipping Preference to Australia:

Thanks

Tom

http://www.canopyformation.org/

Australians Smash National Record 3 times in 3 jumps

Never been done before:

News at:

http://www.facebook.com/aussie100way

Official website: http://www.aussie100way.com/

Australian Parachute Federation List of Queensland Drop Zones

Always a good idea to check out national federation web sites for drop zone locations first.

Ramblers tends to have the biggest capacity and widest variety of activities for sports jumpers.

:)

OR

http://www.apf.asn.au/apf-dz-qld.html

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112109 + 667 = 112776

216+0 = 216

112776/ 216 = 522,1

Holy Moly

I could really stuff the numbers now.

51 total cutaways. B License!
Twice I did not pull my own cutaway handle!
5 were not planned - but well prepared for!
about 2500 total logged jumps.

Hence:

112776 + 2500 = 115276
216+5 = 221

1 : 521.6

Definitely body position.

Maybe too many beers the night before.

Or they were jumping a . . . . . .

general response to thread - not riggerrob

Yes, there is always history and prior experience in rules and the reasoning is often not documented or not easily accessable to the young ones.

Reasons for rules include:
- genuine improvements in safety. These are determined by various means including data collection and analysis, experiemental research, collective brain storming, systematic processes and systems, etc.
- reaction to one off incidents caused by extremely poor decision making by a minority or individual. How do we stop that from happening again?
- response to legal or organisational or political concern - have to be seen to be doing something. Implementation may be rushed or controlled by inappropriate persons. (classic example is aviation industry communication procedures and controlled traffic zones).

Are all rules the most appropriate for your circumstances and situation?

Are all the people making the rules the most appropriate in terms of skills, qualifications, and experience to amke them?

Should you follow every rule in the proverbial book to the letter of the law?

Why should you follow them? Legal, employment security, safety, ethics/values, etc?

i.e. tandem CRW. I think it should not be allowed, but lets put the rule into perspective. Were the incidents that led to the rule caused by ?????????? persons who should not have been performing solo CRW, let alone tandem CRW? Coud it be restricted to people who have achieved a certain level of CRW skills only and not for the rest? For the manufacturer, it is just not worth it. There is no benefit. So they say NNNNOOOOOO.

Lets look at skydiving. People die. They will continue to die. Take the perspective from general society. Skydiving is dangerous and people die. Hence, society recommends to stop it totally. That way no one will die skydiving!!!! Problem solved.

But hang on. It only happens to ?????? % and there are systems in place, and . . . . . .

Lets look at tandems.

Strongs are more prone to having heaps of shit hanging out that could get caught. Let ban it.

Or maybe ensure people are more careful in packing, maintaining gear, moving around aircraft, etc. If people use the gear correctly, it is OK.

Other issues from this thread:

- caught toggles. There are other potential catch points on your rig if you really think about it. Buckles on both harnesses, handles on the tandem harness, helmets, the container, etc. Maybe carry a hook knife. Our DZ does. Or more importantly, when unclipping the side adjusters, clip them closed again.
- the all of a sudden the canopy fails after opening and after canopy checks and after disconnecting the side adjusters scenario (one in a ?????). 99.99 times out of a hundred a canopy failure will happen during the opening sequence. That is when most force is applied. If a cell starts to rip after opening, it will usually do so on weak points which are usually discernable on the ground. This may be a problem if your packer has no idea or you are jumping someone elses gear. Solution: talk to passenger and go through body position routine again. Be prepared for the exo-skeleton method - wrap your legs around their to control the body position.
- the canopy fails after a wild control input. That one is easy to fix. If you can't feel or don't know when you are about to exceed the extremities of you canopies operation (i.e. about to induce line twists, etc) after it is fully deployed and deemed fully functional by you, then ??????????
- canopy fails due to turbulence and you need to cutaway?? See canopy failure above.

Other issues:
- lets look at the handles, The passenger CAN reach them if they really try. Pop goes the reserve into the main!
- they can grab your hands. No control and no deployment.
- they can bring their heads back forcefully on opening and knock you out.
- they could grab the toggle and decide not to let go once they start that spiral.
- etc.

Come to think of it, lets not worry about those side adjusters. Tandems in general are just too damned dangerous!!!!! The highest level of risk managment is elimination of the hazard. Hence, no more jumping!!!

r.e. manufacturers recommendations - you need to make a decision based on a systematic risk management process. Think. Plan. Do. Act. There are also rules and laws to follow.

e.g. RSL's on tandems.
1 - leave connected whole time.
2 - disconnect after you determine that you have a good canopy.
3 - disconnect on landing.
4 - leave disconnected the whole time.

These 3 options are useless unless you understand why.
1 - is only useful if you have reserve issues after cutting away a main (want faster opening???, can't find handle, etc). This is possible but very low likelihood.
2 - covers option 1 but allows for other issues such as water or windy landings where you may need to cutaway.
3 - blah scenarios.
4 - you have an AAD and a number of reasons why deploying a reserve as soon as the main is cutaway prevents further issues.

Further, people are influenced based on their own personal experiences. If you are the one in a million guy that experiences blah, then you are more passionate and conscious about it. You will also want others to be aware and not to have the same experience. This is true of parachute incidents, cancers, business decisions, etc.

It does not necessarily mean that others should have the same focus as you.

Risk v Reward
Ying v Yang

Each person needs to appropriately risk manage their lives and specific situations within their lives.

If something is 1:1000000, then it is low risk and does not deserve as much attention.

Lets talk in Russian Roulette terms.
If you have a gun with 6 chambers and 6 bullets, then your death is certain. Don't play that game.
If you have 167000 guns with only one bullet, and the rewards are high, then your consideration may change. If the bullet is only rubber and will only inflict, it is a different consideration again.

Back to topic:

Side Adjusters:

Interesting points and I have learned new things. Thanks.

I don't put them back on but am open to it - just like anything else.
I close the clips after disconnection.
The length of harness to clips is relatively short. They don't swing about much.

I have good control of my parachute and am very aware of how far I am away from inducing line twists, etc. I just don't induce them and this is EASY to control. It is NOT necessary to perform such radical turns and in touchy conditions I am more conservative. If I don't control then I am an idiot. This is exactly the same philosophy as a hook turn landing. If you do it in an uncontrolled manner you WILL get hurt and there is nothing but you that will stop this from happening.
Excessive turbulence or shitty conditions. Change landing areas of just don't jump. Side adjusters will not save a hard landing. If you are caught out, having more mobilty around the passenger is handy to me.

Regarding lateral movement, I want more control of my passenger for all types of landings and I get better control without the sides attached. I can lift legs of lazy people for smoother slide in landings - same thing for more vertical landings. I can land on one side if I have to to take the force of a landing and promote a slide in, thereby limiting the opportunity of the passenger digging in / anchoring and causing a sudden deceleration and/or change of direction. For a bigger unconscious passenger I can move them around more for landing and have developed a technique that gives me good control.

Also, with two snaps at the shoulders and the weight of the passenger locking them in securely, it requires a significant deal of force to pivot around these snaps (excluding freefall situations). The risk management should be focused around controlling that aspect.

The freefall (post cutaway) part can be controlled well by communication and leg lock if required.

I am not opposed to locking side adjusters in. But at this stage I see more pluses for not on as opposed to on. Its a frequency versus likelihood risk calculation.

Sorry for the confusing rant - it's 2am here!

Interesting thread.

When I was 21 yo (about 17 years ago), I had an L5 / S1 laminectomy/disectomy (not sure which - the disc was shaved on the outside via an incision on my lower back. This was due to sciatica on my left side.

I took six full months off any risk / heavy activity and did all my physio.

I was a promising junior golfer which I gave up because of the back injury.

Since then I have done about 1000 BASE jumps and nearly that many CRW jumps - both kown for hard openings. I am also a tandem master with hundreds of jumps post surgery. In other words, I have absolutely hammered my back post surgery.

About once a year I will have between one to three days of back pain which slow me down to varying extents. Otherwise I am fine. It is interesting to note that these periods are usually preceeded by heavy lifting / work and no prior stretching.

When I participate in sport or heavy activity of any kind, I usually do stretching exercises prior and wear a thermoskin back brace to keep the back warm and don't have problems.

My normal job is professional and does not require much physical labour.

I am currently overweight and feeling a little unhealthy, which is making my back, but also my whole body, not feel quite ad good. I hope to rectify this asap. I do feel much better when I have been fitter and healthier (including lost weight).

Overall I am currently feeling OK about my health but my gut feel is that my back is worsening very slowly over time. Hence I am currently getting healthier and strenghtening the structure around my back as well as losing weight. I also control my openings a little on the generous side (in CRW comps I generally exit later which gives a little more scope for slower openings). The disc is still herniated (I have had recent MRI's), but rarely, if ever, causes problems.

I have had friends with the opposite luck to me too.

Hence, you could be lucky like me or not???? It depends on a lot of factors.

Get lots of opinions, and get yourself strong, healthy, and as flexible as possible.

I don't recommend doing the CRW / BASE / Tandems if you want to pursue skydiving as they are hard work on your back. I picked because they are the disciplines of choice for me.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom B - The Australian One