steve1

Good for you Pat!

To the OP: Is that truly the case that you were covered for the cheaper treatment but didn't get covered for what you think is better treatment? From my experiences in life, more expensive does NOT necessarily mean better and the medical profession is not sacred in that respect. YMMV ............................................................................... The treatment I wanted was about twice as much money as most of the others. In my opinion it was a lot better. I was backed into a corner and was forced to pick a cheaper treatment. The medical professionals all thought that whatever treatment they do is the best. I don't have a problem with that. It's important to believe in what you do for a living. Many of these professionals are quick to condemn other treatment options. The insurance company is the party that I had huge problems with. There was no way they were going to pay twice as much money. After a six month appeal process they wormed their way out of paying a dime for the treatment I wanted. The hospital that was trying to help me kept saying that Obama Care is already allowing insurance companies to legally not pay. I've since found a cheaper treatment that I also believe in.....I think it was a good 2nd choice. I lucked out. Others may not be so lucky. The main reason I posted this was to ask....Is it really true that Obama Care is now affecting insurance coverage? I've had medical doctors tell me it is. The second question still remains unanswered....Where is all the money going to come from to pay for Obama Care in the future. I heard it is going to take vastly more money than anyone could have predicted. If you are poor, out of work, or too worthless to work, this probably sounds great. What could be better than free health care. The school I work for met with an insurance company recently to discuss a different insurance plan. When the question concerning what was going to happen when Obama Care did kick in, the guy just shook his head. Finally he said higher premiums and less coverage. I just don't have a very rosy outlook on any of this. I'm willing to listen if you think differently.

I've talked with one health care professional after another, who state that Obama Care is already having a great impact on health care coverage. Insurance companies can now, more easily, deny coverage than ever before. Things are different now than a year ago. A year from now things may be far worse. I think that anyone who thinks that health care is going to suddenly be better is dreaming. I'd be willing to bet your own health coverage won't pay for what you think it will, right now. You may be very unaware of that unless you or someone in your family needs medical care. What is Obama Care anyway? It seems to me that is hundreds of pages of jibberish. Do you realy think it is going to make things better? Number one, in my mind, is who is going to pay for this grand plan? All the free loaders who will soon get free health care sure won't be. Our health care system is money driven. The hospitals want to make a huge profit. The insurance companies won't pay for anything more than they have to. They are greedy as hell too. If you are expecting your insurance company to suddenly provide more in the future, you are sadly mistaken..... After the 1st of the year things will change drastically. Yep, we are all waiting to see the results. Will someone please explain to me where all this money is going to come from to finance this fiasco. To me it seems like it's going to be from the poor working stiff who already pays too much in taxes.

For the first time in my life I've got some health problems. I thought I was well insured.....I found out differently. After a six month battle with my insurance company, they have concluded that they don't have to pay for a better treatment. Supposedly the cheap ones are just as good. I've talked to many, who say this is just a sign of things to come. Will Obama Care be the ruin of our economy? Where else has socialized medicine worked? I'm embarrassed to say that I voted for Obama twice. I've never thought of myself as a socialist. Why in the world did I vote for this sweet talking crook? After an hour visit with my Dr. this morning, my eyes are now open. I'd like to hear your opinions on this. It just seems to me that something here really stinks. I learn a lot from these forums.....tell me what you think! Yes, I deserve a good thrashing for voting for this idiot.

I told this story at least once before, but maybe this would be a good place to tell it again. Yes, I'm a windy old fart. In 1970 we were seated in the Green Beret Parachute Club bar. We were supposed to be pulling a detail, but we all ghosted out to enjoy a cold one. Our sargent, in charge, was a cool dude. He had orders for Nam, and I guess he didn't care if he got in trouble or not. He was also a skydiver. I told him I might be interested in learning how to skydive. So, he tried to sell me his rig. He figured he wouldn't need it where he was going. He then proceeded to tell us one jump story after another. I was fascinated by all this. That bar had cool pictures on every wall. All of us were airborne qualified, but this sargent was the only one who skydived. Somebody brought up the question of automatic openners. So Sarge told us his experiences with that. I'm not sure which type it was. Maybe the year 1970 might help with that. At any rate, shortly after leaving the plane he was in the middle of a style routine. He was doing a back loop when his rig openned. His automatic openner had fired. He said when he got on the ground, he ripped this gizmo off his rig, and threw it as far as he could into the bushes.....Maybe the early ones weren't too dependable.

Yeah, man I made one myself. You see, a bar full of Air Force drunks started picking on two ROKs....I jumped under the table to avoid getting hit by the flying bodies. Table got crushed but me and my buddy were fine. I'm wondering who won the fight? Those ROK army guys were hard core.....

I really need to get back jumping again. Some of my fondest jump memories were jumping at Lost Prairie, and kalispell. Mad John is still the toughest old fart that I know. Garfield would be a close second.

That ammo seak website is wonderful. I plan to place an order Monday. Thankyou! Thankyou! Thankyou! It's an awful feeling to be out of ammo.

I remember Tonto's words. I wish I could have met him in person. What a terrible loss!

Hey Steve. LP is my home DZ. Fred Sand owns Skydive LP. T-Bow, & Jaque are still around. Don't know that I know Stinky. We usually have somewhere around 6-8 fun jumpers up on the weekends. Come up and make a jump sometime. I should be over that way this summer. Maybe I can talk Fred into letting me jump. Stinky's last name is Stein(something or another). He lives very close to the D.Z. and may have been in pardners on the bar at one time with Dave. Everybody just called him Stinky. His son is also a jumper. There was a bunch of old Osprey jumpers who bought land at Lost Prairie, next to the D.Z. I used to jump with them at Kalispell. I spotted them over the middle of town more than once. My memory is about shot. There's another old jumper who used to be a plumber and pipe fitter. He lives next to Lost Prairie too. Big guy, with a black jump suit. Nicest guy you'd ever want to meet till he decided to clean your clock. Anybody remember his name? He's one of my old pals, but I can't recall his name. Dave Tousey and Fred Sands were the first Montana jumpers to break the 1,000 jump mark. I think they made most of those jumps on round canopies. Does B.J. Worth still jump at Lost Prairie? He used to organize some state record attempts.

Does anyone know of a good source of ammo. I don't mind waiting a few weeks. I need some for the evil black gun that I bought recently. I dug around and found five rounds. I used those to sight it in with. Now I'm out. 223 rounds are about impossible to find.

I was wondering why the bar closed up shop. Dave Tousey used to own it several years back. Is Dave still kicking? He used to be my heroe, back in the day. Is Fred Sands, Stinky, T-bow Tom, and Jaque La Strap still around? I might come. I need to get current again, first. I might have forgot a thing or two....

I don't think I'd ever want anything this high-tech for hunting purposes. It would be like firing a laser guided smart bomb. Where's the sport in that? There would be all kinds of uses for this in the world of military sniping. I wonder how dependable it is? Sometimes simple is better, in adverse conditions. Just my two cents worth!

Very few combat jumps were made in Vietnam. I don't think any involved jumping into a POW camp. There were some early HALO operations, but very few. When I went through S.F. training in 1970, there were some rumors circulating concerning an upcoming mission, somewhere in Nam. Supposedly they were looking for volunteers. Maybe this was a rumor about a rumor. I don't know. We heard a lot of tall stories. I was still a trainee then. Then later, that winter, we heard about a mission that really happened. It was a raid on a prison camp, somewhere in Vietnam. It was a joint mission involving Army Special Forces and Navy Seals. As far as I know there was no jumping involved. The camp was empty.....no prisoners were found. They had apparently been moved to another location. I read about this later, in the newspaper. I'd venture to say that anyone who talks about a jump into a POW camp, in Nam, is probably telling a big windy....

Thanks Pat! I laughed all the way through that story. You and Airtwardo tell the best stories. They kind of have a sick twist to some of them. Maybe that's why I like them so much. This isn't a jump story, but it does involve a gentleman named "One Ear". I know it's not in good taste, nor is it politically correct to make fun of handicapped people, but here goes anyway.

I can't write like Pat, but this story reminds me of the time I went to Sheridan, Oregon in about "73". I noticed that they were jumping a twin beech that day. It had a big rectangular door. Normally a beech had this little door that was a real challenge to get ten guys out of quickly. I had less than 300 jumps back then. That was considered a fair amount for the time period. Out of the trunk of my V.W. I unloaded my gear bag. Inside was a Super Pro main (with a new para-commander), motorcycle helmet, belled jump suit (with my SCR and SCS sewn on), french jump boots, porshe goggles, stylemaster reserve container with a 24 foot inside, and went to look for Ted Mayfield. Ted was a big friendly guy, who didn't like rules much. I liked him right off, and figured this place was going to be fun. Shortly after arriving I saw Jack DeChristopher. I'd jumped with Jack a year or two earlier at Star, Idaho. We'd beat the Air Force Academy in the ten way competition at Star. I don't think Jack ever knew that I only had 85 jumps when we did that. B.J. was hard up for a tenth member of his team and asked me to come. I felt like I was hot stuff after that. Jack was still wearing the same white jump suit with black stars sewn all over it. He introduced me to some of the big boys who were jumping the beech that day. I pretended like I did this stuff all the time. I was all geared up, when up walks our pilot. I couldn't believe it. Here was a 15 year old kid, who apparently had a twin engine rating. I could tell that Ted was really proud of this young-ballsy-feller. Everyone called him "Elevator". Elevator never seemed to quit talking. He sure was a happy kid. We needed a bigger field to land in. So with Elevator behind the controls we took off and headed for the Mackminville Airport. There was a bigger drop zone there. The exit went like clock work. The base pin went together fast. We built a solid eight way. A couple guys were out, but this was considered really good work (for then). We were all happy. We drove back to Sheridan with grins on our faces and plans of doing it all over again. The next load we did it even faster. Then we broke it on line and built two four ways. Whoa....this was big doings! Talk about exciting stuff. The next day, I drove back to Montana, and told everyone, who would listen, about the time when I jumped with all the big boys in Oregon. Now this was something to brag about!

I don't have a clue on how to down load studies, but I'll try to type this up without making too many typing errors. This was published in Loma Linda University Health News: A staggering 99 percent of prostate cancer patients treated with proton therapy believe they made the best treatment decisions for themselves, according to a new report released Feb 13, 20013 at the National Proton Conference in Washington, D. C. The report analyzed outcomes and satisfaction of approximtely 6,400 prostate cancer patients, more than 80 percent of whom received treatment at Loma Linda University Medical Center. ................................................................................................... This was an earlier study by Dr. Slater and David Bush MD: Breakthrough Study Reaffirms Proton Therapy Efficacy; Post-Treatment Quality of Life on Par With Men Never Afflicted by Cancer Loma Linda, Calif. (PRWEB) Oct. 30, 2012- Prostate cancer patients treated with proton thrapy at Loma Linda University Medical Center (LLUMC) have a post-treatment quality of life on par with men who have never been treated for cancer, according to a study presented at the annual American Society for Radiation Oncologists meeting in Boston. The breakthrough study evaluated the quality of life of approximately 1,000 prostate cancer patients following proton therapy treatment at five centers and compared them to men who haven't been treated for cancer. Of the 1,000 prostate cancer patients surveyed, 80 percent were treated at LLUMC's James M. Slater Proton Treatment & Research Center, the first and foremost hospital-based proton tretment center in the nation. "This Study reaffirms the results we've seen from our patients for the past 22 years and supports the mountain of evidence regarding the efficacy of proton therapy," said Jerry D. Slater, MD, chairman of the LLUMC Center Dr. Slater and Dr. David Bush, vice-chairman of the Department of Radiation at LLUMC, were co-authors of the study entitled "Multi-Institutional Patient_Reported Quality of Life After Proton Therapy for Prostate Cancer Compared to Non-Treated Men." The study analyzed men at a median age of 65 who were at least one year from the end of their proton treatment and specifically looked at their urinary, hormonal and bowel functions. In all of these areas, men who had been treated for prostate cancer with proton therapy fared as well, if not better, than the men who never had cancer. Sexual differentiators existed in men who were slightly older than median age and or were taking hormone therapy. "Proton therapy is a highly effective treatment for prostate cancer as the targeted proton beams spare surrounding healthy tissue and minimize the typical side effects from standard photon beam radiation including incontinence and impotenc," says Dr. Slater. Since LLUMC brought modern proton treatment for cancer into the mainstream in 1990, there have been countless studies and trials that have shown proton therapy to be the treatment of choice for many types of cancer. Over the years, proton treatment has been refined and, coupled with leading-edge technology, has become one of the best treatment options for doctors and patients. While prostate cancer remains one of the primary uses for proton therapy, the pinpoint accuracy of the proton beam also makes it a highly effective form of treatment for many other types of tumors including those found in the head, neck, lung, and breast. ................................................................................................. Long -Term complications associated with the treatment of prostate cancer: Chronic Toxicity .........Protons.......Photons.....Prostatectomy Impotence..............30%............60%.........60% Incontinence.............1% ............3%.......... 32% requiring a pad Bladder Neck Contracture...............0%..............3%............8% Grade 3 GU toxicity.0%.............7%........... N/A Rectal Stricture ...... 0%............ .5%........... N/A .............................................................................................. I'd like to type up more of the 3,000 other studies but I have to get back to work.

Bill, There is a huge difference in the way these types of radiation are delivered. They are not both the same. As I said earlier, IMRT and most forms of external beam radiation use X-ray radiation or Photons. This radiation is delivered, full strength, when it enters your body and it effects healthy tissues on it's entire path through your body. To avoid doing too much damage, the entrance point and exit point are continually changed. You are pumped so full of radiation that you can never have radiation again. This is the same radiation that the dentist uses when he takes an X-ray. The last time I had that done they put a lead shield on my chest. That was for one X-ray. You are receiving thousands of times that amount of radiation, when you receive X-ray radiation for cancer. So, in time you may very likely come down with a new cancer caused by all that. Proton radiation is not radiated throughout your body at nearly as high a level as X-ray radiation. I thought I explained all that earlier. It does not enter the body at 75% of potency as you stated earlier. The amount of radiation that healthy tissues receive is minimal. The proton radiation travels to the cancerous tumor and destroys that area only. The chance of contracting secondary cancer is virtually zero with Proton Radiation! Again.....this is like comparing a smart bomb to a cluster bomb. Delivery of the radiation is completely different. I don't know where you are getting your information, but much of it is wrong. There is not a higher incidence of hip fractures with the other external beam radiations. That is because it is delivered in multiple entry and exit points. There is a higher incidence of hip fractures with Proton treatment for prostate cancer. That is because the same entrance points are used over and over again....through the hips. There is not much radiation affecting healthy tissues, but there is enough to affect the hips slightly. This one of the only long term side effects for Proton therapy. As far as sexual side effects, who in the world told you that it was higher with Proton Radiation? That is simply a big lie. With most forms of radiation the rate of impotency is about 60%. That means you are unable to have sex without the aide of drugs or other wierd contraptions or injections. And even that may not work. If you have your prostate surgically removed, that rate is closer to 80%. For Proton radiation the rate of impotency is 30% or less. Most men who have Proton Radiation done, say that there is no change in their sexual function. There is tons of evidence to prove all this. More than 3,000 papers and studies have been done since 1954. But randomized clinical trials have never been done comparing all of the various treatments. This will probably never be done because it is unethical, to use human guinea pigs in life and death studies. Without that is is not possible to absolutely state that one treatment is better than another.....But that doesn't mean there isn't any evidence available! There is mountains of it.

You sound like a really nice person Rhonda Lea. I hope you can kick your cancer in the rear. I used to be nice before I turned into a grumpy old man. This cancer stuff hasn't helped my disposition any. What I have isn't very serious yet. I'm really lucky it isn't worse. I think I'm going to go down to Arizona and check out what that treatment center has to offer. It might even be a chance to start jumping again. The trip down there is on their nickle, and maybe I'll find another option, for my cancer. I know I'm awful closed minded and sometimes I have trouble seeing further than the end of my nose.

Great story, Pat! That's exactly how it was "Back in the Day". Tell us another one....

I just don't agree with this. These other treatments don't have any more clinical evidence going for them. There is a ton of evidence proving they have more side effects. There is more to proton radiation, than marketing hype. This opinion article, sounds like hype that an old school doctor might produce to validate a treatment that is now obsolete. I've often heard of people referring to Proton Treatment as the new expensive treatment. Proton Radiation has been used for treating cancer patients for almost 60 years. In that time it is not difficult to look at survivability rates after treatment. Or to look at short and long term side effects. Hundreds of studies have documented the effectiveness of proton radiation. Proton therapy has been the topic of 3,000 papers since 1954. Would most insurance companies cover Proton Radiation, if there was no clinical evidence that it was effective? I think not. More than 180 insurers have paid for this treatment in the past. IMRT has only been around for ten or fifteen years. It is now being promoted as the new best treatment. The bottom line is that noone knows what the long term effects are. Too much X-ray radiation causes cancer. With IMRT you are being pumped full of enough X-ray radiation to kill a horse. Yes, it might take ten years for this new cancer to show itself. If you treat someone who is 80, what does it matter? The thing is that I'm not eighty, and plan to live more than another ten years. Yes IMRT it is cheaper in initial cost, but I don't want it. The side effects are worse, and there is no clinical proof that it kills the cancer better. Impotence, rectal problems, incontinence, and secondary cancers are some of the side effects and complications that are likely or possible with IMRT. I wonder how many IMRT centers are using hype to market their technology? After all they too are trying to pay for their expensive equipment and hospitals. I have been dealing with another treatment center in Arizona. They are trying to sweet talk me into coming down. They even offered to pay for my plane ticket and motel. They offer about every treatment option, except Proton. The guy kind of reminded me of a used car salesman. The only thing is, I don't want anything they have to offer. I figured what the heck, I might just go down and jump at Eloy, and enjoy this free trip, but I don't want to spend three days arguing with these guys. At Loma Linda Hospital they treat close to a hundred cancer patients a day. Have they all been duped by marketing hype. I think not! What about the 100,000 other patients who have been treated with Proton Treatment? Are they all now dead or living miserable lives? Absolutely not. Nearly all are happy with the treatment they received. A recent study documents that. Where is the clinical evidence that shows that another treatment is better than proton radiation? A study or two or an opinion article isn't enough. Until randomized clinical trials are done, noone can say that one prostate cancer treatment is better than another. People are rarely in used in life and death studies. It is unethical. But with the evidence that is available, Proton Radiation has proven to be just as effective in killing the cancer, as any treatment out there. When looking at the chances of cancer coming back, I have about a 96% chance of remaining cancer free in ten years with Proton radiation. Noone else can offer a higher rate than that. A recent study in Florida, shows a 99% disease free survival rate (at five years) for low risk prostate cancer such as I have. And that is without the god awful side effects of traditional treatments.

This is a bit off topic, but I feel firearm training is important. Particularly if you carry concealed or plan to defend your home with a firearm. I bought a concealed carry permit, about a year ago. I am military trained, and have been around guns all my life, BUT I know I still have a lot to learn. I recently signed up for five days of training with Front Sight in Nevada. I'm excited about going. They claim excellent results. As a bonus I'll come out of it with a 30 state concealed carry permit. You wouldn't believe the good deal that I got on this. Check them out. Maybe they will cut you a deal too....

. This is contrary to anything I've read about Proton Radiation. I'm wondering where this info. came from. The information I've seen states that very little proton radiation contacts healthy tissues. That most all of it is delivered to the tumor itself. With X-ray (photon) radiation, the highest amount is delivered when it first enters the body. It is affecting healthy tissue on it's entire path through the body. Less radiation may actually be hitting the tumor than the surface tissues. To avoid too much damage, the entrance and exit points are continually being changed. With Proton Radiation there are only two entrance points. For prostate cancer that would be on both hips. Again most all of the radiation is delivered to the tumor. I would think that anyone receiving Proton Treatment would end up with two dead holes, in the skin and surface tissues. if the radiation entered the body at a 75% level. I'm not a doctor, but maybe the following words can explain Proton Radiation better. This comes from a doctor at The Abramson Cancer Center in Pennsylvania..... "Unlike with X-rays, the absorbed dose of a proton beam increases very gradually with increasing depth and then suddenly rises to a peak at the end of a proton range. This is known as the Bragg Peak (Dmax of a proton beam). A proton beam can be directed so that the Bragg Peak occurs precisely within the tumor volume, something that can almost never be done with X-rays. The dose around the tumor volume is much less than the tumor itself, thus sparing normal tissue in this area. The dose immediately beyond the Bragg Peak of a proton beam is essentially, zero which allows for the sparing of all normal tissues beyond the tumor volume. Side effects, both acute and long-term, typically seen with X-ray therapy can thius be markedly reduced with proton beams due to the sparing normal tissues that are situated around the tumor." If you look at the delicate area, where the prostate is located. I don't want a carpet bomb type of treatment. I know that Proton Beam radiation is not perfect. One of the few long term side effects is a greater likelihood of hip fractures. So, I know there is some radiation delivered to healthy tissues. The proton radiation passes through both hips.

I don't think that anyone doubts the effectiveness of Proton Radiation in killing the cancer. It is at least as good as any treatment out there, if not better. One reason it may be the very best for that is that higher amounts of radiation can be delivered to the tumor, without making you really sick or killing you. That isn't an option with most other forms of radiation. But there is more at stake here than just stopping the cancer. Quality of life is very important to me. If you choose the wrong treatment, you are likely to be messed up for life. Where Proton Radiation really shines is in terms of side effects. That is the reason it's so popular. Some treatments are worse than the cancer itself, because of complications and side effects. I truly hope I'm not forced into a treatment that I don't believe in, just because it's cheaper.

RhondaLea, I wish you the best too. This cancer crap is no fun. I hope I didn't sound too controversial on any of this. I get so damn mad that I lash out at others. My anger is probably a cover up for the fear I have inside. I've watched several relatives suffer from prostate cancer. I hope to fair better than they did. At any rate, I wish you the best in your battle with this disease!