JohnnyUtah

Looking for opinions on function quality during skydiving between these two:  

HERO 7 Black -vs- HERO 8 Black

I got a copy of it in the mail yesterday and I concur....

Superterminal is amazing

VKB

Thanks Andreas

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I think its more like a ballance thing..

I totally agree with you Faber, it is about finding a good balance.
A canopy that is too big can have negatives traits about it. Bigger canopies pressurize slower on opening like you said (even to the extent of end cell closure problems), and they turn slower, and have less penetration.
So you want to try and get the best of both worlds.

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whats yours?

The winds are doing 26 MPH right now = not even thinking about going downtown.
And I was gonna see if I could get unlucky and have my first object strike tonight, damm.

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So in other words, I thought ".6 is for newbies, .75 is for very experienced jumpers"

Ouch. Nope, that's not the way it works.

In fact, in BASE, very experienced jumpers tend to jump higher wingloadings, usually because they've seen enough bad stuff go down that they want the extra safety margin (sometimes also because they are trying to land in more questionable areas, or for other reasons having to do with attempting more advanced jumps).

Ok, that makes good sense. I was avoiding studying when I was reading all this stuff the other night, so it was late at night and I was tired

Are BASE rigs in the same boat as skydiving rigs, in that the container's sized for a small range of sizes? Or does the nature of the way a BASE canopy is packed allow for more container size variation?

In skydiving people tend to downsize their canopy to a higher wing-loading as they gain experience, so I understand your thought process completely and you are sort of correct, whereby a more experienced BASE pilot should be able to handle the higher wing loading VS a new BASE jumper. BASE is not like skydiving in this way though, because experienced jumper still want the lower wing loading knowing the reality of the demands a BASE environment puts on the jumper.

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So in other words, I thought ".6 is for newbies, .75 is for very experienced jumpers"

Ouch. Nope, that's not the way it works.

In fact, in BASE, very experienced jumpers tend to jump higher wing-loadings, usually because they've seen enough bad stuff go down that they want the extra safety margin (sometimes also because they are trying to land in more questionable areas, or for other reasons having to do with attempting more advanced jumps).

I disagree.
I have noticed the opposite to be true. Through the years I have seen many experienced BASE jumpers (including myself) start jumping a lower wing loading (usually a one size bigger canopy). The lower wing loading does give you less penetration but having a larger canopy over your head is a lot more forgiving while doing steep accuracy approaches and dealing with turbulent air.

Higher wing loadings are definitely the trend in the Skydiving environment for swooping and jumping in higher winds.

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Johnny, do you recommend reducing the strength of the throw when using super mushroom? Can a too vigorous throw combined with fast inflation of super mushroom anchor the PC on the side, leading to offheading?

Thanks
Yuri

When going stowed (PC packed either way), I do a clean, solid throw, straight to the side (to bridle stretch).

If youre too vigorous about it, then Im picturing something like a wild throw. That can put more noise in your packtray and can cause the pilot chute to whip around a little bit, and both of those things could be the sole reason you get an off heading.

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Johnny, read on the 'super mushroom' webpage :"I recommend only using pilot chutes WITHOUT a handle for the Super Mushroom. I only use handles for smaller PCs intended for longer delays in which case I should not need the Super Mushroom anyway"

For higher altitude and longer delay jumps, I usually just use the regular mushroom. I think I went into a bit more detail about that in a thread a while back. Theres a link to it in one of the previous post I made in this thread. I dont use the Super Mushroom on terminal jumps.

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so if i get it right, the super mushroom would only be used on a 'big' pc without handle ? ... that would mean you use super mushroom on what ? 42 - 48 ? (admitting you go stowed with 46 & 48 of course)

I dont decide to use it based just on pilot chute size. Its an altitude thing for me. If its under 400 feet and Im going stowed, I will be using the Super Mushroom. Between 400-500 feet I will sometimes use the Super Mushroom. If Im planning on humming it low on something below 500 feet (maybe 600), then I will usually use the Super Mushroom. Otherwise I will be using a REGULAR mushroom style whereby the mesh is s-folded. I think I say pretty much the same thing in that old thread.

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Thanks for the info, havent got much experience in-between sizes jumps. well, actually, not much experience at all

Youre welcome bro. As always, these are just my ways of doing things, take it for what its worth to you. Hope it helps.

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Just curious. . . .

In the BASE flick "Rage" there is a scene from Bridge Day that shows an older guy. . . .maybe mid 60's, that jumps from the bridge using some old school, ripcord, spring loaded pc, skydiving gear. His canopy is mostly blue, with 1 or 2 gray cells. In fact, from the video it appears that he was even using a sail slider. Does anyone know who this guy is? Does he still jump? Do you ever see people at BD still use skydiving gear?

I put that shot in Rage because Jim Poulson jumping that rig every year had kind of become a tradition at Bridge Day. Its entertaining to say the least, watching Jim jump a ripcord and spring-loaded pilot chute from the NRGB and sometimes have a hard pull to boot. And who said BASE isnt skydiving.

Great post Rick. That antenna jump you, your brother, and I made last time I saw you was a blast (pun intended). I still think about that jump and the fun we were having up there on top of the world. You guys rock. Hope to jump with you again soon.

Chad,
Thanks for posting the feed back.
I use a couple different methods when going hand held.
The Super Mushroom has really been mainly a stowed method for me, but then again, I feel comfortable going stowed on most jumps, except super low stuff like 200 or less, That was more up Dwains alley.

Maybe if I get some time later I will tell ya about my handheld methods more or maybe I'll just PM ya.

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>>I want to thank Johnny Utah for standing up and sticking his neck out, taking the flames, and posting what he knows in an effort to keep newer jumpers safer. It must be frustrating when you try to pass on your experience you get attacked by others for personal reasons or just to stir up trouble.

Youre welcome.
If you and other jumpers (experienced and new) benefit from it, then its all worth it.

Cheers

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Say it with me slow Utah: I am am a F-B-I agent.

Dude, its: I am an FBI agent!

Whos the one thats wasted?

Now go back to jumping PCs with no hole in them and hooking it in....
Your luck is running high.

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Hi Johnny
How long delays do you do whith a 48`?
How long delays do you do whith a 45-46`?

Personaly i dont use 48` But has to say i have one that has been used once for a SL as a back up

Usaly i use my vented 46`handheld 0-1.5sec above that i use`vented 42`either handheld or stowed(stowed=2 or more secs slider off)

Its all personal and im not in a place to tell people what is right or wrong..

Faber, sorry man, I just wasted a bunch of time trying to set the record straight so people would not be mislead by Treejumps. Ill see if I can get some time later to share my experiences with you and others.

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A little luck goes a long way in base.

Yeah Tree... its all luck...

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However,
one thing that I think everyone needs to know is that a few hundred successful jumps with any given technique, (be it stow method, pack method, pitch, etc) is statistically invalid.

I dont BASE jump according to statistics...good thing its all luck!

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Until something is proven statistically successful in the 10,000+ tests, I wouldn't be too sure about it.

So basically what youre telling everyone is that they should not be too sure about the Huck-It container since it has not been tested anywhere near 10,000 times. Probably only tested a hundred times at best....not reliable.

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It is still the 1 in 10,000, or 1 in 100,000 events that kill jumpers. The 1 in a hundred (180) or 1 in 1000 (line over) can be planned for and trained for, but the 1 in 10,000 event is random, like say a hesitation on a handheld.

Its all luck dude.

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Over confidence in any given technique based on a small sampling (a few hundred jumps) can lead to making poor decisions.

Oh, you mean like when you said (quoted here) you could hook it in again and again with no problem because you had gotten away with it once. Thanks for clarifying.

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While I think the super mushroom is a good technique,

Oh, so now that many people are using and also believe in it, you think its a good technique. Thats straight up bizzare (and good luck) seeing as you were the one person who totally tried to discredit it when I first posted about it on this forum
Dude, I had been jumping it for years before I posted about it. The reason I posted about it here, was because BASE 689 was asking me to put up some pictures of it on the internet. So I did to help others out.

This is not a popularity contest for me like it is for you.
I know exactly why you tried to discredit it. Because it was something that I thought of and tested and shared.
Oh no, we cant let people think Johnny knows what he is talking about.
That would go against our political agenda.

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What you said Tree:
I was suggesting that Jonny's method seemed drawn out, complicated, and resulted in an equal or lesser outcome of the standard pack job. I agree taht your (the standard method) takes a minute and has proven to work well. I don't think Utah's method would open any slower, but would certainly open no faster. All stowed PCs can hesitate. An extended centerline would seem to reduce the possibility. The worst method I've seen is the burrito. If you absolutely can't afford a hesitation, go hand held.

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I don't think it is prudent to lead others to believe that it is bombproof.

Whos doing that?
You are the one who is misleading people, just like a politician.

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Just like stocks, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

Just like with stocks hun? So it really is a crap shoot then. Im surprised were not all on the list.

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BTW, that must be some huge nug to serve as a internal handle. You cultivating or something?

Tree, youre a waste of time.
I thought you were going to stop your nonsense.
You hurt other jumpers when you discourage knowledgable jumpers like myself from posting here.

Oh yea, its all luck....nevermind.

First of all - I have never said that a hesitation is NOT POSSIBLE using the Super Mushroom. I have simply provided the experience I have with it, based on hundreds and hundreds of jumps. It has been very reliable for me.

One of my basic beliefs in parachuting is: Weird Shit Happens
Another one of my beliefs is: There will always be a random element when it comes to fabric responding to random air molecules.

Common sense says - A PC HESITATION IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE NO MATTER HOW YOU PACK/HOLD/THROW THE PILOT CHUTE.

Anyone that thinks there are guarantees in parachuting does not have common sense.

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Johnny, please believe that this is not meant as any kind of attack on you personally--it's just a discussion of a technique for stowing the PC.

I know what it is.

Do you think that far more seasoned jumpers than you or Tree will want to post valuable experience and knowledge, when you and Tree come back with replies like that?

You both put a negative spin on a technique that can save lives.
For example, take the Russian jumper (fatality#79) who had a hesitation going stowed from a ~300 foot Antenna. If he had been using the Super Mushroom that may not have happened.

Tom, please dont start your fighting and endless squabble with me again.

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I believe the super mushroom is less prone to hesitation than the standard mushroom for stowed jumps

Thats because it works. So I take it from your post that you have never had a hesitation using it either then.

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but I also believe that any mushroom technique has a higher hesitation rate than the 'S folded' or 'Loose ZP' techniqes described in this thread.

Im surprised you have not seen the loose ZP technique almost kill someone. There is a good clip of just that in one of Dennis McGlynns Videos he put out in the mid-90's.

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I have seen good video of a jumper experiencing a noticeable hesitation with a hand held super mushroom from under 300'. The jumper is a regular poster here, so perhaps he will chime in with details of his experience.

A noticeable hesitation? So not a serious hesitation then?.....like what it possibly could have been if he/she had used the regular mushroom, and possibly based on the other factors which we should all know also come into play here such as how the PC is held, how it is thrown, what direction it is thrown, airspeed when thrown, and yes even how neatly was it packed. That is why I stated on my website:

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The degree of sloppiness may affect its consistency.

That sure doesnt sound like Im trying to sell it as bombproof.

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I'd like to hear more opinions about stowing big (46/48) PC's. I have been doing these 2 A's where I've been thinking about pros and cons of this topics. I've been doing them so far with 46", two times stowed and all others (like 13 jumps or so) hand held. The case on these A's is that they are about 95m high (about 280-300ft) but they both have some 10-15m high pine trees just underneath so you really have only ~80m of alti (~240ft) to clear the trees and make it to the landing area. However, these A's have pretty sketchy exit points and it would be nice to be able to use both hands while climbing to the exit and that feels a bit tricky when having 46" PC in your hand. That's why I have been thinking about going stowed. You really cannot fold your PC to your hand on the exit so you pretty much have to exit with the configuration you have once starting to climb there.

So what would be your choice on an A like this on a 1-1,5s delay, go stowed with 46, take 42 stowed on a 240ft (280 to impact) A or use 46/48 hand held and accept the sketchy climb to the exit ? I jump troll 265 on gargoyle container and load it around 0.6.

My choice for the situation you described:
Stowed
46 or 48 PC
Super Mushroom

What I would not want to use for the situation you described:
Handheld - because of the sketchy exit point
42 or smaller PC
regular mushroom or any other style whereby the PC fabric is flapping around your hand as you exit.

To all:
I have made hundreds and hundreds of BASE jumps using the Super Mushroom PC packing technique stowed (including 42, 44, 46, and 48 size PCs - hundreds of those jumps have been with 46 and 48 PCs). I have NEVER had a pilot chute hesitation using the Super Mushroom. On some jumps while using the REGULAR mushroom, I have experienced PC hesitations - especially stowed but also handheld.

The danger of the other method that some people use (whereby they leave the zp fabric loose on top of their grip) is that the fabric can snag/wrap around your arm or hand or finger. Ive seen it happen many times both on video and with my own eyes. Every time the jumper went into panic mode shaking it off their hand - they probably thought they were going to die...and they would have if they had not gotten it off. Also with this method you cannot make as good of a throw to keep the PC away from your burble.

The larger the PC, the tighter it will fit in the BOC. Realized that, know that, check how hard the pull will be before you get in the car to go. The way you pack it (the shape) also affects how easily it will come out of the BOC. In other words packing it in a cylinder shape with nearly equal bulk throughout will extract smoother than packing it with the deep end having more bulk than the cap end. Also, you want to have a nug under the cap to serve as a handle. This way you will get a good solid grip quicker and wont lose your grip when you go to pull out the PC.

Hope this helps!

Super Mushroom

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My friend just started BASE jumping (did his first at Bridge Day). I'd like to get him a DVD or a BASE rig packing class for Christmas.
Anyone know where I can get this for him?

The BASE Packing DVD is in the mail Sarah. You should be getting it tomarrow.
Im sure your friend will find it very useful. Thanks.

Here is a Clicky to where my BASE Packing Video on DVD can be found.

http://www.johnnyutah.com/store.html

Does anyone know how to get ahold of Jack Reeves these days?

Here's a link to Erich's last edit. It's of jumps the MN crew and myself did at the Go Fast Games at the Royal Gorge Bridge during the second weekend of October 2004. Attached is a picture that Erich took on the way home.

I talked to Erich about 14 hours before his accident and he was loving life. We had planned to go on a BASE trip that weekend. Guess he couldn't wait.

General statement to all readers:
Because it takes time and training to gain the proper skill to be using toggles as Plan A, I am not recommending toggles over risers or visa versa. Even though I am a toggle guy, I still think using risers is a suitable method of dealing with an off-heading opening. I dont really go for the whole Toggles VS Risers debate. Thats why I called my article Risers or Toggles. It is what it is.
I am pro-toggles and pro-risers.....get the job done!!!
Having said that, I do have a personal preference, which I have expressed clearly with reasons and cautions.

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I am curious how you reconcile this conflict between what you said his position was, and what he stated as his position.
Can you clarify?

Sure. No problem.

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Johnny,

I found it interesting that in your article you cite Dwain as an authority supporting your position, based on a conversation you had with him in 1999.

I didnt cite Dwain as an authority supporting my position. I cited him as a BASE jumper agreeing that he should have gone for his toggles. Im pretty sure he felt that way because he almost got seriously injured or killed from the sink caused by using the risers.


I said this in this thread a while back (Oct 2003):

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Dwain and I are on the same page, like we were on most things we discussed. I can think of a time when we disagreed on an issue. It was at the last Petronas event, concerning a jumper who spiraled onto the roof of the mall. After watching the video one time, I said it looked like he had a tension knot. Both Dwain and Slim adamantly disagreed with me. They thought because the slider had come down, it could not be a tension knot. I listen to their response, and quickly determined that a tension knot can occur within a single risers line set. After explaining this to them, they still disagreed. Later that day, a zoomed in photograph, taken from another building, showed without a doubt, that it was indeed what I said it was (a tension knot).

Tom, I also said this to you in that same thread:

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This reminds me of something you said at Petronas last December. You were saying that a line over will not make your canopy spiral. I over heard this and thought for the safety of you and others, I should inquire. I asked you why you would think that. You said because you had a line over and it did not spiral. I told you then, Every line over has a different configuration. I hope you believe that.

I really do hope you understand the reality of what I was telling you there.


In Dwains post that you quoted, I agree with much of what he is saying, but not everything.
For example: I agree that this part describes an excellent technique if you are using the risers.

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180 offheading - flying at wall - very close to impact. No time to turn away. Hard input on both rear risers. Canopy stalls backwards. Let up on left rear riser (while still pulling down on right). Canopy barely turns - cells are barely pressurized and there are waves going through the canopy. Reach across with left hand and pull down on front right riser (while still pulling down on right rear riser). This forces air into the cells - canopy instantly response and spins on the spot. Immediately let up on riser input and release brakes to drive away from the wall.

What I would do in a similar situation is this:
I would go for my toggles and pull them all the way down immediately. This will stop the canopy. From there I can do a snap turn by letting one of the toggles all the way up or I can fly backwards first if I feel I need to and do the snap turn at any time I choose. You can stop and fly backwards just as effectively with the toggles as you can with the risers. By using the toggles you can snap turn on a dime better than you can with risers (this is a main reason I am a toggle guy), plus you dont have to change grips like you would during the riser maneuver. Using the risers will cause you to sink drastically. On the other hand, using the toggles will result in minimal altitude loss (this is another main reason I am a toggle guy).


I also agree with this statement of his:

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SLOWER forward speed is BETTER in 99% of serious offheadings close to the wall. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not had to deal with a bona fida 180, half line twists on a go-n-throw from a vertical wall.

I have been in a similar to worse situation.
I used the toggles to save myself. If I had used the risers, I would have had an object strike.

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Some people say "toggles". Well toggles are great (and my personal preference) if you aren't really close to the wall and flying directly at it.

I prefer to have my toggles in all situations (except when I have to reach above line-twist).

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There are situations (eg. go-n-throw from vertical wall, bona fida 180 with half a line twist) where you do not have time to use toggles (I am NOT talking about the extra time to grab the toggles, I am talking about the response lag between releasing the brakes, pulling down on the toggle and the canopy actually responding).

I disagree with this statement of Dwains. By using practiced technique, I can make the canopy respond considerably faster (time and distance) by using the toggles.

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Also you may be so close to the wall that as you are turning away the end cell will drag on the wall and swing you back in.

If you are about to smack a wall nose on, the only thing to do is to back the canopy away far enough so that when you turn it, the end cell won't clip the wall. Flying the canopy backwards is the only option here (unless you are so low that you will pound into a ledge or the ground as you turn - in that case you just have to sink the canopy straight down and PLF - good luck).

I agree, but I want to mention again that you can back out of such a situation by using the toggles like I described above.

Also, (a quote from my article):
>>Keep in mind, when you are flying backwards, you are in a complete stall.  That is why I think flying backwards to get out of a tight spot on a low object is a risky endeavor.  If it came down to having to ride the ball to the ground, I would MUCH rather do that on toggles.<<

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When to go for toggles and when to go for risers?
Basically here is my personal rule for that: If I open and I am flying at a wall and my body starts tensing up for immanent impact then I go for risers, otherwise I tend to go for toggles.
“Oh sh*t, whimper" on opening = risers.
"Uh Oh, I'm looking at wall" = toggles.

If you are super fast on the toggles, through muscle memory you will have your hands going in the toggles as you are realizing your situation. There is no deciding what should I go for, you are already there (or nearly there).
That way when you need to take action, it can be instant.


If you noticed, Dwain mentions a couple things to the effect that a less than ideal brake setting -or- an ideal brake setting, can cause inadequate results while using the risers. If you are using the toggles, then once you pull the steering lines down past the brake setting point, the brake setting that was, is no longer an issue.

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Yeah - they(conservative brake settings) work great for rear riser input on a 135 offheading, but turn it into a 160-180 offheading and the wall comes at you like a freight train.

In dealing with point #2 you have installed customized brake settings on your canopy (but not so deep that you risk a stall). Now because the canopy is going so slow you suddenly have response issues to rear riser input. Basically the thing won't want to turn and will probably stall if you pull down too hard on a rear riser.

In this context, if you would like to read my thoughts on the subject of risers or toggles, it is here.

Hope this helps.

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Thanks Johnny,

Speaking for myself I'll be happy to take you up on your generous offer. I'm not sure that Brian will be jumping though. I talked with him this morning and he hasn't committed to doing it yet. Plan B includes challenging his courage. Brian is the poster boy for fearlessness and I'm sure a challenge will work if I have to use it.

Excellent.I will save two slots for you guys.

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However, please don’t get the idea there is any pressure on you to make a jump. Just having you two there would be more than enough for us. However, if you really do want to jump I'm sure Johnny Utah, or Tom Aiello, would gladly have you in the courses they provide for first timers at Bridge Day. You know, LOL, just as a refresher sort of thing.

Mike and Brian, you are both invited to attend my Bridge Day FJC (as a refresher sort of thing) at no charge. Its the least I could do to say thanks FOR GOING FOR IT!!!.... and planting the seed, which has grown into modern day BASE jumping.

from jonathans account:

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...got on toggles straight away to turn right, couldn't feel my canopy turning after a couple of seconds and by that time had been rag-dolled around to the left and that looked like the better option, so i tried to turn left but was pretty much on the cliff and ended up flaring straight at it.....

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Yeah, i went for toggles. That's what i was taught and felt comfortable with. I also think this has to do with the learning environment in Oz (others might not agree), where your first x number of jumps are sub-200ft PCA's, i had developed a riser response while skydiving but forgot about that on my first jumps as you've gotta be on toggles pretty quickly to land.

Saying that, i will definitely go for risers in the future. You can see in the video that i had a fair bit of horizontal distance to use, which i ate up by not responding appropriately (turning left first). I think if i left the brakes stowed and went for risers i would have had enough horizontal distance for the second response.

Jonathan,
Glad youre ok.
It looked and sounded to me like you got your hands in the toggles fairly quick and had about 3 seconds between you and the cliff. More than enough time to turn the canopy with the toggles.

What you need to figure out is why you could not turn the canopy with the toggles. The first 4 possibilities that come to mind:
1. Did you make sure to release the brake setting on both sides?
2. Did you put the other toggle up to a full flight position while pulling the toggle of the side you wanted to turn to all the way down?
3. Were your toggle settings dialed-in for a slider down/off (LRM) jump?
4. Were you using an effective technique of steering the canopy with the toggles while using the LRM (line release mod)?


You may find the Risers or Toggles article I mention in my previous post interesting.


Hope this helps