Lefty

For what it's worth, I agree with you. The only question is if society is ready for our brand of egalitarian policy. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

I'm a bit too jaded to complain about trifles like that. You're correct, though. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Yeah, that's another thing that surprised me about quade's irony argument. How many times a day on these forums are GOP politicians called (correctly, in some cases) closet homosexuals? That gay bar probably had to tear up their rewards cards. Shrug. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Gentleman's choice. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Thank you, Wendy. Trying to get a straightforward answer on these forums and I get met with contortions that would put an earthworm to shame. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Why is it silly? The bakery owners' actions are no more or less "satirical" than the actions of the bar owner. Are you going to defend the bakery's actions and bans the same way you have done for the gay bar? If not, why not? Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

They're satirizing the gay bar in the news story I linked. Your move. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Before you get too pleased with yourself--I was actually just trying to coax that out of you but lost patience. See, what you've just done is admitted the double-standard and lack of consistency that I've been alluding to. A gay bar can ban patrons outside their demographic, even posting a sign stating such. You assume it is ironic and satirical even though the tone of the story, the source of the story, and the owner of the bar suggest it is anything but. Flip that around. The owners of a Christian bakery want to attract others like them to a place they can feel comfortable and do business based on shared values. They post a sign saying "No homosexual couples allowed" because that demographic does not comport with the beliefs of the owners and their clientele. Would you still laugh it off as satire? Would society? Will it be considered just a joke to be shared by anyone who reads the sign? I'm guessing not. How is one better than the other? Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Since you won't just come out and say it, I'll assume you're referring to the fact that the establishment is a "gay" bar. So the legislators are unlikely to visit in the first place. Is that correct? Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Aaaaand I have no idea what you're talking about now. Did the second clicky not work for you? In any case, a better example of satire or irony would involve the pizzeria or the bar offering all legislators who support the bill free jumbo sausages in fresh, hot buns or something along those lines. That would at least avoid giving the appearance of lowering themselves to the level of bigotry they're opposing. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Yes, yes. So, is that second link I provided tickling your satire bone yet? Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

It's called political satire. You might want to look into it. Funny, I don't remember there being so many finely-honed senses of humor around when discussing satire by, say, Rush Limbaugh. Read that second story I linked. The owner of the bar is gay. I don't get the impression he's joking. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

I'd say that demonstrates the point I was making about inconsistency pretty well. Thanks! Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

I'm sure everyone would appreciate the dry humor of a "No gays or blacks" sign with equally ironic intentions. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Do people not see that it weakens the argument against being able to ban homosexuals from businesses on moral grounds? Is popular opinion the only reason one ban is condemned while the other is celebrated? On a purely personal note, I say it serves the idiot legislators right. But on a political/philosophical level, it makes the business owners banning them just as bigoted as it would if they had banned gay people. Just looking for some consistency. Clicky 1 Clicky 2 Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

I wonder how many of the people shot dead by their partners and/or with their own guns felt exactly the same way. A timely question, as it happens: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/25/man-shoots-himself_n_4853983.html So does the tendency of morons to demonstrate gun safety by putting a pistol to their respective head and pulling the trigger make me less safe with a gun in the house? Assume, if you please, that I am not a moron and would not demonstrate gun safety in that manner. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Well put. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

We don't, as a rule, get to make use of business tax breaks and incentives unless we're running a business... and if you're using commercially zoned resources in a community, you actually *are* expected to make the property and services available to the community. Yes, that is the law. We were discussing what the law should or shouldn't be, I thought. That's how the thread started. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Almost every private citizen receives those things. It shouldn't make your house open to the public by default. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Isn't that exactly what caused all the fuss that got the bakery closed? Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

"Madness" might be overstating things a bit, but you make a valid point. However, in this day and age, I don't see a business owner's personal bigotry, if it exists in the first place, overriding his need to make money. With all the posts on this very forum deriding or celebrating the "greed" of capitalism, I'm surprised anyone is left who thinks greed will take a break when it comes to serving gays or any other given group, as a rule. There are instances, of course, like that cake shop a while back that wouldn't make a cake for a same-sex wedding. But look at the public response to their nonsense. That cake shop has since closed down, if memory serves. And from personal experience: Back in high school I worked for a business that I later found out was owned by a white supremacist. I guess they're into Norse mythology which, looking back, explained a lot of the tattoos he had. Anyway, I never saw him be anything but courteous and accommodating to every customer that came in, regardless of skin color or religion (which was often mentioned due to the nature of the business). Why? Because the need to make money took priority over the need to air his personal bigotry to the customers. The law did nothing to curtail his disgusting beliefs. The law didn't require him to go beyond grudgingly serving all perceived threats to the white race or whatever. The law didn't say he needed to leave the customers happy so they'd come back. Economics and greed did. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

I know the law is toxic. I'm against this law because it doesn't include EVERYONE. It singles out one group for discrimination and that's wrong. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

Also not alone; members of the KKK. Just because you belong to a group, doesn't mean that group is right. Indeed. But I'll just keep on erring on the side against bigotry and hope for the best. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

As I suspected. More small, silly thoughts from a small, silly man. I'd be embarrassed for you, but that would be as useless a sentiment as being embarrassed for a pig rolling in its own excrement. It doesn't take long to see that's just what pigs do. I went to a friend's coming-out party just three weeks ago to show support for her and her partner. I would not patronize any business that refused to serve her due to her sexual orientation. I would not patronize any business that refused to serve whites. Or blacks. Judging by the response the AZ and KS bills have received from the American people, I can see I'm not alone. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin

From whence does this political power come? I'd like to think things have changed for the better since the civil rights movement. Now, when government tries to treat a minority unfairly it is met with overwhelming condemnation. Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin