sabre210

As Faber would say, Wery wery interesting.

I don't disagree with any of the points you just made Nick, and i agree wholeheartedly about the overall ethos of keeping the BASE bank account in credit. You take a bit out, you put a bit back. I just wish you wouldn't default to the assumption that all the ills we face in BASE today are of the 'new generation's making. They aren't. Every generation of jumper has had it's bad apples, it's rebels, it's black sheep. And like most bad habits, they're learned and passed down from a previous generation. I have no issue whatsoever with anyone reminiscing fondly about their golden days in BASE. In fact i love hearing of others 'in days gone by' tales. But there is a monumental difference between fond nostalgia of times past and bitter contempt for times present. Instead of containing your loathing for those who transgress, irrespective of era, you seem to now have welded all that is bad with all that is recent. That is a shame, because despite the problems, there are some incredible characters in BASE at the moment, some truly inspirational jumpers, some truly talented jumpers and yes, modern day Carl's and Dwains and Anne's. You're not seeing them obviously but I'd say that's cos you gave up looking.

This could go on and on, quoting each other against ourselves and picking holes. You jump on me for using sarcasm but find it ok to employ yourself (gloryhounds only from LA???). Remember that opening gambit or was that really a genuine question. Me. I picked this argument with Nick cos i'm sick and tired of hearing these wishy washy broadsides about how WE (whoever WE is) fucked up the holy grail of BASE by selling out to the masses. It's boring. It's ignorant and it's just plain wrong. If i come across as angry at Nick, that's because i am. Sorry,(queue sarcasm) i wasn't informed that anger was no longer a valid emotion. I must have missed the meeting when everyone decided that in order to raise an objection you have to voice it in an ever so calm psycho-analytical 'let's talk about your parents' type Oprah tone.(end sarcasm) I guess i'm more Bill Hicks and you more Bill Cosby. My anger is perfectly valid, as is Obi's. If that doesn't fit with your view of how arguing should be then that's tough. Call me old fashioned but when someone insists on coming on here and effectively calling us lousy unethical twats who ass-raped the goose that laid the golden egg just because we are part of some broad (mid late 90's to present day) 'new generation' of MTV whoring jumper, then my reaction is usually to put the gloves on and hit back with some (what i consider to be) home truths. Nick's a big boy. If he insists on generalising and crow barring us all into some stigmatised pigeon hole then i'm sure it can't come as surprise when individuals take exception and bite back. Personally, I'm not going to sit back and read this poison without taking exception to it. But that's just me....angry and bitter.

You're very wrong actually, but with your head so far up your own arse you can't see it. I really don't give a hoot if you're sympathies lie with Osama Bin Laden my friend. You assume I need to get you on side to be validated. I really don't. A posed a very straight forward question. What constitutes a glory hound and why do some people take the shit whilst others get a pat on the back. And i have to say, you have a very wwwwwarped view if you think my reply is embittered and Nick's posts are not. And if my response is barbed with sarcasm, that's no more than I feel necessary. More and more Nick's posts reflect such antagonism, poison and barely concealed contempt for some imaginary group of modern day jumpers he perceives to be the antithesis of what BASE is supposed to be about. Anyone who questions this notion is then dismissed as being too inexperienced or too new to the sport to be worthy of consideration. Your misplaced sympathy and unquesioning reverence for someone who does indeed carry out the very unenviable task of collating the Fatality list means you come out guns blazing at the first whiff of criticism. The term 'shoot the messenger' springs to mind. If you think I am alone in my growing repugnance and contempt for this barrage of prejudiced abuse coming from Nick, then you are so wrong it's just not funny. And unlike Nick, I am not for a second turning this into an old school, new school battle. I have received many many many words of support from people who have held a BASE number a lot longer than he has. People who realise that the seeds of inevitable change were sown from the onset.

I wanted you to define glory hound so we all knew who to blame for this catastrophic demise of BASE but since you side-stepped the question then I'll pose examples for others. Carl Boenish - footage of illegal jumps presented in screenings to entire dropzones for 'entertainment'. Target audience - skydivers and a broader general public. Tom Sanders - Footage of illegal jumps off all objects purely for entertainment sake. Target audience, skydivers and extreme sports participants and a broader general public. Nick Feteris and Glen Singlemann - BASE climb films. Footage and expose of BASE as part of a specific goal to jump the highest wall in the world. Target audience - anyone with a TV. Anne H (as a representative to BR) - Discovery documentary where she assists Will Forshay in obtaining his BASE number (legally). Target audience - anyone with a TV. Tom Aiello - Discovery documentary piece following Tom's rehabilitation after a near fatal low pull at the Perrine. Also features jumps from some illegal terminal walls. Target audience - anyone with a TV. Thor Alex - Made it his mission on a single trip to jump the 3 highest profile buildings in NYC and then distributed his footage to media associations in an effort to 1/appease them? 2/finance his defence? 3/seek glory? Shane McConkey, Felix Baumgartner, Mike V et al - High Anxiety films and numerous other Ski chronicles Marta Empinotti - documentary appearance Team behind XXX and all other motion picture BASE stunts. Jumper X who posts his video on youtube or skydivingmovies.com So the question is.....spot the gloryhounds. Some? All? None? What makes one a glory hound worthy of derision and what makes the other a spokesperson worthy of adulation. I can't figure it out. Or is it just a case of "if they're my old mates and i've met them and understand their motivations so i know they're not essentially bad people so they don't qualify............... but this new breed who i don't know personally, think I'll blame them!" For the record, No i don't think all the examples above were gloryhounds, and no, I have never posted so much as 1sec of my hours of footage on any online site.

Define that Nick would you.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007110543,00.html And before you all steam in without the facts, it's worth pointing out that the footage and our gear was confiscated by the construction company and THEY sold it to the papers, NOT US. I can only guess it was leaked by a disgruntled member of security.

No mate That's not what i meant. Curse of the missing comma? That should have read " 'is it necessary?' you asked" not "is it necessary you ask(ed)?" sorry. my poor punctuation.

Utterly disagree. In the UK (that's worth making the distinction here) I have never found the Police to be anything but reasonable and understanding about what we do. In fact i'd go further and say most are pretty impressed with how we go about our jumps and how we conduct ourselves when caught. As someone who has had a good few run-ins with the police, and therefore more experience with how they view us 'on the front line' than most, I can honestly say, the few hours here and there we spend in their company is probably some of the best PR work we could do for bandit BASE. They are often taken aback by how calm and rational and polite and helpful we are, and i have never once felt they walked away with a more negative view of us. Not once. Consequently from the 7 busts i have to date, the worst thing to happen was that 50note on the spot fine for trespass on a railway and the caution for carrying false id, both of which were issued with much embarassment by the Police because they had to follow protocol but really knew how petty it all was. I have seen no evidence whatsoever, that BASE is becoming less and less tolerated by the Polce in the UK. In fact judging by the stats, the only attempted prosecution i know of was DT's after his bridge bust many moons ago and even then the Police had to pay him compensation for unlawful arrest and seizure of his gear. The UK is not the USA. It's very important we remember that and as long as it stays that way, i do not feel the need to adopt that default paranoia which sadly my US counterparts are forced to.

I've been on one and a half busts with you mate and we both knew and accepted there was a high bust factor in order to make those jumps, so you got to know I broadly agree with you; I'm definitely not having a dig. But is it really necessary to do high bust factor jumps *all* the time in order to be a BASE jumper? Your ethics and ninja skills are exemplary, but you seem to routinely choose objects with so much security that even when you comfortably get away the police are involved. Even though you're not usually caught and perhaps there is no official policy, "BASE jumpers" are no longer a whacky and amusing one off story around the local nick any more? If jumpers are being pressed to accept significant warnings/charges from the police, rather than a friendly and slightly bemused chat you'd get only a couple of years ago, you might argue that these things are related. I know that dealing with security is a significant part of the challenge for you (and a tedious job for me) and I really do value your thoughts on this. All I can say is thank fuck most of them don't have guns in the UK; at the moment. We all push our limits in different ways my friend. Some people do complex aerials, some people do complex unpacked jumps, some people fly as close to the wall as they can, some people strap wingsuits on their arms and inhibit their movement just to improve flight performance. Every one of the above increases the risk of injury and death, and consequently the risk of negative publicity for BASE as a sport. Me, i keep my jumping simple in many ways, but i push my limits in others. You're right, a huge percentage of my jumps would fall into the 'high bust' category. I make absolutely no apologies whatsoever for that either. It's how i push my limits in the 'sport' Is it necessary you asked? No but then neither are double gainers, roll overs, tard overs, wingsuits or proximity flights, and all of them carry additional risks of negative consequences to BASE.

Were any of them day jumps?.....NO Were any of them busts prior to jumping?.....NO Was i whooping and hollering under canopy?.....NO Did i nonchalantly pick up my canopy and stroll away without a care in the world.....NO Can i think of any way i could have reduced my chances of getting busted apart from by not jumping?....NO. The funny thing about BASE jumping is that no matter how stealthy you are getting ontop of a building, try explaining that to a 305 square foot slider down canopy on opening. I've talked to it, explained the need to be quiet but it just won't play ball. Every time......BANG....LOOK AT ME. Oh and i'm not talking about some high rise on the edge of sleepyville, I'm talking about jumping in London, or Barcelona or Kuala Lumpur city centres. Places which tend not to be dead at 4 in the morning. The fact is....most of these jumps you have 2 options. Jump and risk being busted or don't jump. Like i said, i'm a BASE jumper so i jump, strange as that may seem.

They're both related. It's not either or. If you jump in the city a lot, you are more likely to get busted. If you are careless about your jumps, you are more likely to get busted. If both, then you are even more likely to get busted. Fair point. But getting busted does not mean you lack ethics. I've been busted 7 times so far which I guess ranks me up there with Ted Bundy for run-ins with the law. Every single one of them was avoidable I must admit, had i not jumped. But had i not jumped, I wouldn't really consider myself to be a BASE jumper...more of a BASE talker, and wow, does the world need a few less of them.

Maybe because they do a lot more buildings than most?.... i don't know. If you stick to legal bridges, remote antennas and cliffs, you're significantly less likely to have run-ins with the law. I'd say you're on decidely dodgy grounds implying ethics is directly related to busts. It isn't. It's related to the type of object and that objects proximity to other people. If you live and jump actively in a city, you'll get busted a lot more than your rural counterpart, regardless of who has the better ethics. As for potato guy. No comment. ian

Isn't that where you suck each others cocks? Hey whatever keeps you smiling....

Almost certainly AM. Go touch it. You'll soon find out.

Buy an alti watch, go to the landing area set it to zero then make your way up to the exit point. That tends to do the trick, give or take 20feet or so. This way, you get the added bonus of checking out the landing area and the exit point first, and whilst at the exit point you can get a very accurate reading of height to impact using your laser, something you absolutely cannot do using a laser from the landing area.

Oh sorry. Been sleep posting again. Yeah I agree Calvin. There's no beauty in BASE jumping anymore. Every time i stand on an exit point it just seems so......bland and pointless and well....like it's all been done before and I drift off into a time when everything was swell and lovely and warm and fuzzy and orangey coloured and the world was good. And as i prepare to step off (shit scared cos it could be the last thing i do) I wonder in awe at how magical it must have felt back in the golden days and how i must be missing out on something now. And when i land and my hands have got a little tremble going and i look back at what i just jumped off with exhilaration and pride I wish I could have done that 20 years ago cos in my mind it must have been sooooooo much more beautiful back then. Man i miss those days (i don't actually have any personal recollection of). They were great days (i'm told), and what I do now is just so lame (I'm often made to believe). Anyway, got my glass of milk, back up the wooden hill to bedfordshire. Back to my lovely dream.

Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzzzz what? who? talking shite again......where...er....confused....wasn't around jumping then so couldn't possible know.......fantasy nostalgia by proxy bollocks...... zzzzzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Yeah they did indeed. Very funny, very amusing jumps they were too, i chuckle every time i see them.

This what the old timers told you?

Thanks Phil. That Houston jump is still (even in this day and age of aerials and gimmick jumps) an awe inspiring balls-to-the-wall jump which humbles me. But as you said, even back then, there were glory hounds and attention seekers and despite them, BASE survived and will continue to do so. Fools will come and fools will go but i suspect BASE as an activity will outlive them all.

The problem with long threads is people often forget what the point is and I do think you've gone off on a tangent with what you believe I'm actually saying. I'm not arguing the case for videos on youtube. Never have, never will. All I ever took issue with is Nick's negative tone and sweeping generalisations towards a whole generation of jumpers. Generalisations which lead to the conclusion that BASE is about to implode and dissappear because WE, that's you and me and everyone I jump with, fucked it all up. And by disassociation he, and Carl, and Phil Smith and everyone he jumped with remains blameless.(THAT IS THE POINT) My point is this. Yeah there are glory hounds, yeah there are videos splashed here and there, yeah day blazing a building is a sure way of burning the fun for all on that object, yeah inviting the media along for your 15 minutes of fame is very short term thinking and has potentially long term implications BUT, that has always been the case and always will be. When Owen Quinn leapt off the WTC do you really think the authorities reacted any differently then than they do today. A generation or two later when Thor Alex blazed through NYC do you recall the response then. Yet BASE lived on. It was not the end. In fact it changed very little beyond the reactionary short term. If BASE is regressing, then it began that slide long ago....perhaps even as early as when Carl screened his first film to a dropzone full of slack-jawed heathens. He didn't have to do that. He chose to share and i for one can not condemn him because of that. We are all part of a BASE evolution, not it's destruction. Whatever laws may come it isn't going to stop us, in the same way that the losing of permits to jump El cap back in the day didn't stop people from jumping it. We exist despite these laws, not because of them. I know that Nick is big on the idea of BASE jumpers being renegades and not snuggling up in bed with the establishment, and believe me, that's music to my ears too. I'm just reminding him that the battle isn't over and giving up and laying down his sword does us all a great disservice.

I should add, I don't want to argue with you anymore Nick. Despite what you may think, I still have the utmost respect for you, but i felt it was worth counter-arguing because you carry great influence with people (jumpers, non jumpers and media) who do respect and listen to you, and i felt it was important they didn't just accept the nihilistic view that BASE is spiralling down the pan into oblivion because it is populated solely by populist robot-like glory seeking assholes. There is still a solid punkrock core to BASE (and i mean anti-authority, not Gwen fucking stefani) so chill out, grab your slippers and pipe and relax. The resistance is alive and well. Laters.

The Philadelphia jump blasted across youtube, makes me cringe too. If i'm honest more because of the 'rad' commentary and the fact it's blasted across youtube than the fact they jumped that building in the day. They may have had their reasons regarding gaining access, i don't know, although seeing as how it is still under construction, it tends to point towards easy night access. Anyway, that really isn't the point. The point is Nick I can almost feel the heat from your hands after all that rubbing with glee you did when this jump was brought to your attention, because in your mind it validates your prejudices and preconceptions of what the 'yoof' are all about and how they're fucking up and fumbling the passed-on baton of BASE. Did you feel the same way about Owen Quinn I wonder and his WTC jump? Do you recall that amazing footage in one of Carl's early films of a jump from (i think) a Houston skyscraper, a two way with one on a square and one on a round. Beautiful day it was judging by the footage? What about Thor Alex and his NYC jumps? How about Dwain and Slim, i've seen a stack of their dayblazing building jumps? I could go on....and you know it. I just wonder why you feel it's so different NOW. Like i said, it's not all fine and dandy in BASE today, and if i were a teacher i'd say there was definitely room for improvement, but hasn't it always been that way?

.....and jump a little more.....