MakeItHappen

I have a good story along those lines too... . This thread has been hijacked into a number of other interesting areas. The question is about accountability. IOW, should the person that allows a BSR violation to occur be penalized at any time in the future? The reply about someone crashing under a main with an out-of-date reserve comes closest to the scenario. I have a contrived example that hopefully will generate replies that address accountability versus the position someone holds at a DZ. This example is not as general as the original question, but it might help you understand the original question. Suppose Joe opens the door on jumprun (Twin Otter, Skyvan, King Air, Caravan etc). Joe looks down and sees that it is a solid overcast. Joe's group decides not to jump. The group behind Joe wants to jump. They get in the door and go. Joe knows they are violating an FAR, but does nothing to stop them from jumping. Do you think Joe should be held accountable for their jump through the clouds? Does your answer depend if Joe is 'just a licensed jumper', a Coach, an Instructor (any discipline), an S&TA, the DZO or a BOD member? Yes, I know the FARs say the pilot in command is responsible too. The question is about Joe's accountability. If you want to think more, if one of the jumpers died from a low turn (on the airport - the spot was good), should Joe be held accountable for the BSR violation? . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

Suppose that you saw a jumper violating xyz BSR and you knew it before they jumped, but you did nothing to correct the situation. They go in on the next jump. The fatality had nothing to do with the BSR violated. Should you be punished or reprimanded for the jumper violating a BSR and not doing anything about it? Suppose you did not notice a BSR violation. After a successful jump, someone points out the BSR violation to you. Should you be held accountable after all you as a USPA Instructor should have noticed this beforehand? . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

I'm gonna do a bit of steering here. Paul - it's great that you and maybe others are re-reading the BSRs to try & figure out WTF I'm alluding too. BTW - your list is incomplete. The particular BSR violation it NOT the point here. [but keep reading anyway] The question is when someone is accountable and under what conditions. I do not want to give details of any of the events. They have been posted here [dz.com] - with incomplete information. The rest of the info will be in the meeting minutes (in about a month) or various other places. I am just asking generalized questions to see if people place higher or lower standards upon various people at the DZ. I am asking at a conceptual level. For those that have to have specific details on xyz incident my questions will be lost. I never made mention that the BSR violation would be obvious to all the skydivers on-board Paul - since you have never been any of the mentioned USPA stamp-heads - I think your perspective might be limited somewhat. But since you are or were one of those VIP inspectors - there are things that ought to just jump right out at you on this. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

I will assure you that this is NOT a hypothetical question. There are at least FOUR events that where brought to my attention at the BOD mtg that fit the scenarios I describe above. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

Suppose that you have one of those USPA logos stamped on your forehead. By that I mean you are an officially recognized USPA Coach, or Instructor or S&TA, BOD member or a Group Member DZO that pledges to abide by USPA BSRs. In other words, you are someone that is expected to know and follow the BSRs. Let's suppose that you are on some jump or on the aircraft involved in a jump or know about a jump taking place. Let's suppose that there is a BSR violation by one of the jumpers on this aircraft. [It doesn't really matter for this discussion what the violation is - just that one exists.] Assume further that the BSR violation is one that can be determined before the jump takes place. [IOW - this is not a punching clouds or low pull question.] I have two questions: 1. The jump takes place and everyone lands safely. However, upon landing, someone brings the BSR violation to your attention. It turns out that the BSR violation was something you 'should' have noticed before the jump, but did not. Should you be held accountable? 2. The jump takes place, but there is an accident and someone dies. Upon landing, someone brings the BSR violation to your attention. It turns out that the BSR violation was something you 'should' have noticed before the jump, and did notice, but did nothing to remedy the situation. The BSR violation has nothing to do with the accident. Should you be held accountable? Do your answers depend upon what USPA logo is stamped on your head?? . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

This is not an incident. An incident would be a report on the jumper that opened right over an alternate airport with +100 of his closest friends, several miles from the Korat AFB, and tried to make it back to the Korat AFB. The jumper broke his ankle on landing in a small area. He decided not to land in the wide open area directly underneath him or a golf course that was available between the two airports. Doing the same thing as your buddies on the jump may not always be wise. Differences in glide angle may allow them to reach an open area and not allow you to reach the same place. see Get-Home-itis The stationary point is the best way to guesstimate where you will land. You also have the option of running with the wind to an open area. Decide by 1000 feet where you will land, I always do. . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

This happens waaay too often. I find someone at my dz almost every weekend with a chest strap misrouted or undone. Last week in Thailand, I was sitting on the tailgate of a C-130. We were still on the ground. The tailgate puts you higher than the others and you face forward. You can see everyone else in the plane. This guy stands up in the middle of the plane to check his O2 hose. I look over at him & see his chest strap dangling. I call him by name. After I got his attention (it's really noisy), I grabbed my chest strap & pulled & then pointed to him. He looked down at his gear. Got this very embarrassed look on his face and then did up his chest strap. This jumper has tons of jumps. Another newer jumper with a misrouted strap got the same look when I said 'hey your chest strap is misrouted'. We were sitting on the benching waiting for the plane to land. I think the experience of not fastening it or misrouted and having it pointed out is usually a sufficient lessen for most jumpers. . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

If you think about it, as the floaters wait for the base to form, they can complete their wackers and fly the line in. I don't think anyone on the attempt has below 1000 jumps - so the skill is there to pull something like that off. As I am trying to get adjusted to Bangkok time..... FYI: pre-building wackers means building them in place (ie proper distance and orientation from the center) then the person that connects the wacker to the rest of the formation picks up the grip on the base-side. Building a line and then flying it over several feet to make a wacker has never been part of WT events or any other big-way events I've been on. That's a common misconception about pre-builds. I really have a cool slot - floater from the the left trail C-130. It's 6:30 pm in BKK now. Did you know that FAI used to have a 60 second rule? Formations had to be built within 60 sec to count as a record. The 64-way at Perris in 1981 missed out on an FAI record because they took 63 seconds to build it. It was impressive anyway. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

Here is the post Michelle is so bent about originally posted to the Jackie Died thread Michelle- our 'discussions' at the dz amount to a one time encounter where you lectured me on how to prevent low turn fatalities. Most of which I have heard for many, many years. After that one time 'discussion', I went over to some longer time jumpers and rhetorically ask why new jumpers thought they had the answer to the 'landing under a perfectly good canopy problem', Do they not see that the collective whole of USPA, the industry and jumpers have seen this for many years and still do not have a solution. If there is something new, tell me all about it, but rehashing things we have known for 20 or 30 years for 45 minutes gets to be tiring. Please take a moment to stand in the shoes of people that do not know you or ever bother to look at your profile and consider how they might see how your post for Elsinore may have come across. I was not the only person that questioned the paypal account you set up. I did suggest to Betsy yesterday that they change the email addy to something with SkydiveElsinore.com in it. It's more credible. I know your intentions were on the up-n-up, but you could have asked for an Elsinore email addy when you set up the account. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

I want to say that those pictures - accurately show the damage, but they do not show you the context of the damage. One thing that struck me when I saw the damage in person were the rig hangers, cable housing and ripcord handles. The rig hangers are clearly visible in most of these photos. You'll notice that they are still attached up high at one end and dropped to the floor at the other end. The way my head saw that was a rig on each hanger bar. Rigs just disappear when they burn. Only the housing, ripcord handle and hardware is left behind as evidence of it's existence. Most of that fell to the floor. Only the bare hangers were left there. Not shown in those views was a ripcord handle hanging off a rig hanger bar. I doubt if that particular handle was in someone's rig. On the close side (to the road) all you could see were housings of rigs that looked like they were stacked on the floor. There was a tiny remenant of a parachute in one location. THere was a charred logbook that Hammo pulled out. There were shells of VCRS decks. THe U shaped lid sort of popped off the rest of the VCR. The guts were burned. Then there were the Corona bottles - brokened by heat at the label off in the corner of the staff area. That red & black jumpsuit in the 'fountian pic' - totalled. nothing left - it's all gone - just like that. Each rig hanger had a rig, plus accessory equipment, The staff had video equipment & dub stations - all gone just like that. Logbooks are the most heartfelt losses. You cannot replace those.. The pics will not show you what it's like to see that in person. The emotional strains I saw out there were great. The Elsinore folks need a bunch of friends right now. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

I collected a bunch of altimeters, beepers, goggles, jumpsuits and people with gear to loan at Perris. Video dubbing equipment and camera set ups are also available for loan. Elsinore manifest has the altis, beepers, goggles & jumpsuits. JP's camera suit is there & he's dropping off other stuff too. If you are Elsinore staff please email me at aerosoftware _AT_ MakeItHappen.com for a list of folks that have a rig to lend. I do not want to publish their contact info here. Please do this asap, as I'm leaving the country soon. One of the gear lenders is leaving on Monday. I will also be sending an email out to S. Cal jumpers. I would like to put your gear requirements & contact info in the email. I know plenty of people with the equipment you need that they can lend to you. Blue Ones - You guys hang in there - you'll have loaner gear by the weekend, if not sooner. PS- Hammo said he has student and tandem rigs lined up already. THey still need the staff equipped out - that is happening pretty quickly - but there are still people not set up yet. - jumpsuits for staff & students - altis - that may be covered by now. Alti2 is lending their displays until the new ones get in. Betsy sent someone to buy vcrs & such stuff to Walmart already. Look for more info on the Elsinore web site and contact the dz directly. . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

You missed the point then. If equipment is so much better today than 20 years ago, no one should be afraid today. Illogical if you ask me. Skydiving has risks. Some of them are catastrophic. Mental blocks or uncontrollable fears can change the risk levels. It's not about technology. It's about the mental blocks people play with. People 20 years from now will look at today's equipment and shudder about how 'unsafe' it was. If you want a story with newer technology read this story. A week from today, I'll be off to Thailand to do two more World Records: - a mass freefall jump with 672 of my closest skydiving buddies. - a large formation jump with 372 of my closest skydiving buddies These dives have some additional risks than the usual weekend jumps. I've been on more than thirty +300-way attempts. The very first one in 1996 over Anapa, Russia was the one that was the most pensive because it was completely new. Everyone followed the plan and confidence grew. I had more clear air at pull time in Russia than on some 20-ways. Eloy's 300-ways were good too. There were a few minor glitches caused by people not following the break off plan exactly. Those were fixed and the plan worked remarkably well. Confidence is about knowing what you are doing and following the plan. . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

I do not understand this. What exactly do you mean by problems with unintentional turns? All I can think of is that your arm unintentionally pulls a toggle and then lets it up (or not). That sounds more like a seizure. You are probably not having seizures up there. At least I hope not. Sometimes people flare asymmetrically and induce a slight turn on landing. If this was your problem it should be corrected while using the larger canopy. A smaller canopy will only make the consequences more severe. I'll assume that your JMs asked you to fly straight at full flight to make sure a turn was not induced by an uneven harness or a trim problem in the canopy. [This might be a bold assumption.] . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

Brake Line Check There are several techniques for brake line continuity checks. I prefer the one that starts at the canopy and works towards the rig. Lay the canopy down with lines outstretched. You don't necessarily have to lay the canopy out neatly, but it does help. I always do because I flat pack [gasp!]. Pick up the brake lines, one in each hand. Walk toward the rig with the brake line sliding through each hand, clearing it as you go. When passing the slider, I use one and only one hand to transfer the hold of the line from one side of the slider grommet to the other. IOW, I do not EVER put both brake lines in one hand. When you get down to the rig end, the line should be free and clear. You also have to check the risers for twists. That's where the twists and line overs 'collect' so to speak. I prefer the canopy to rig method over the rig to canopy method because the twists and tangles are much easier to see and much easier to figure out how to undo them. Also: It is possible to have only one line stepped thru or half of them or 3 of them etc. You can also have your rig flipped thru & have it 'look ok' if you do the rig to canopy type check. It definitely won't look ok with the canopy to rig type check. Most of the time that will open anyway. All bets are off (aka new rules apply) if you change connector links. You have to check line continuity on every line when you replace links. ---- We agree completely. Your post is considered a by-product of the Law of Unintended Consequences. This thread started in Incidents. Perhaps you can ask Mr. Grobler to add a tag to the subject line 'Moved from xyz Forum', where xyz = original forum name. ---- . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

doh! - I think I read the 'rules'. Before you start a thread in the Incidents Forum or reply to post please consider the guidelines below: * The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents. * Most, if not all, new threads here should start with the report of an actual incident. General safety issues or small and potential incidents should be posted to the Safety and Training forum. * Incidents include: malfunctions, cutaways, wraps, collisions, crash landings etc. I trust everyone will use their good judgment before starting a thread or disposing of advice. * In case of a fatality please post your condolences to the Talkback forum and keep this forum for discussion. was this a fatal or serious non-fatal incident??? seems to me to be just an ordinary run of the mill malfunction.. That's something everyone ought to expect some time or another while jumping. USPA wouldn't even expect an incident report on this. Why is this an 'Incident' as opposed to a 'General safety issue'??? IMHO, this is not an incident. Let me explain my motivation for asking this question. If run-of-the-mill-mals get elevated to 'Incidents', then people may start thinking that this is abnormal. They might think parachutes work all the time. They might even think reserves work all the time - just cuz they have a TSO (in the US). I don't know about you, but this stuff is 'to-be-expected' on any given jump. Normal stuff. I repeat - this is not an incident. You are not the first person to pack a step thru & probably won't be the last. Remind people to do a brake line check at the start of a packing & it most likely won't happen to them. General Safety Issue: Do a brake line check at the start of packing. . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

Why is this considered an 'Incident' here? . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

but inquiring minds want to know where the poll was moved to????? ok there's a typo that I wanted to fix. I hit delete - no confirm to delete - the post is deleted - not the poll and no way to fix the typo. .... . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

oh wow - that's totally wierd. This time I got a request for confirmation... add : I guess they really delete records - as opposed to setting a flag. That's interesting... . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

so if i reply to this and then nuke the original post the poll gets moved to lala land??? is that how it works? . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

so how do you change the typos in a poll post?? and why is it that you can't edit a deleted post. or even change it or reply to it?? and the guy that replied, deleted his post so, why doesn't that say post deleted by xyz guy? usenet makes you live with your mistakes, but here you think you can make changes to the post, but really can't - not under all circumstances. guess I'll have to experiment more. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

N/A

This is true. That is why it is an option for removing it from coverage. It does not make a significant difference in the premiums. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

Actually, no, not that I know about. This is where the insurance company 'gets their way' over whatever USPA has to say. I can think of two major incidents that occurred in the past 10 years. One case was a TM that used a Strong rig. The TM was rated under RWS. I forget the exact details of the landing/canopy problem. The TM lived & the passenger died. It happened in central California several years ago. Anyway, the TM was NOT rated for the rig he used. (This was before the USPA tandem rating existed.) The TM, USPA, Strong and half-a-dozen other companies were named in the lawsuit. USPA vehemently asked the insurance carrier NOT to pay off on this case. (I do not know if it's the same carrier we have today.) The insurance carrier paid off the claim. Strong continued to fight and pay mucho bucks to clear its name. The TM was definitely violating USPA BSRs & FARS, but the insurance company paid off. The second case was a demo jump where an infant was killed by a demo jumper. There was apparently a BSR violation, but I do not know what it was. There were BOD members that said 'do not pay off on this'. The insurance company did pay it off. Recently, I specifically asked Chris Needels about what HQ does with claims. He said they just forward them to the insurance carrier without comment. I believe back in the Ottley days, Ottley would send in an evaluation about the BSR/FAR violations, if any, per claim. I'll ask him about this in Feb. If you ask me, HQ should be sending in comments about BSR/FAR violations to the insurance company. But this only really, really matters in the BIG FUCK UPS. In those instances, the insurance company will, more than likely, pay off the claim. That's cheaper than a lawsuit. So, in the real world, following the BSRs does not matter if you file a claim. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

A jumper hitting the aircraft is what usually causes damage to aircraft in the air. Sample: King air left flap; Horizontal stabilizer plane in flight: is when it is off the ground. Normally the pilot has control of the AC. A jumper can hit the AC on exit, sometimes this causes damage. Typical stuff: King Air left flap, horizontal stabilizer. plane on ground: is when the plane is on the ground, taxi or parked. Sometimes jumpers land on them and cause damage. Auto on the ground: well, let's hope so. But this is not always the case if you are in Arizona. Sometimes jumpers land on them and cause damage. If someone crashed into your car at WalMart, then the insurance of the driver of the vehicle that hit you would be the insurance that should pay for damages, not WalMart's and not your insurance. Example: A guy had a high approach at a sunset swoop & chug. He let go of both toggles, gave the finger to the crowd, then proceeded to hit a parked car. If that was my car, I'd want the jumper to pay for damages. If I was the DZO, I'd want the jumper to pay for damages. . . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker

Information on USPA Insurance (in no particular order) The BSRs must be followed in order for coverage to be valid. Damage from cutaway canopies, handles, helmets, altimeters, etc. is covered. Any regular equipment that causes damage is covered. Skyballs, surfboards and the like are not covered, as that equipment is not regular equipment. A jumper hitting the aircraft is what usually causes damage to aircraft in the air. Sample: King air left flap; Horizontal stabilizer Deductibles: The premium would not change significantly until the deductible amount is over $1000. There is no way USPA can ensure that a deductible would be paid by a member. Individual and Demonstration insurance can exist without the other one. [Someone posted that Individual insurance could only exist with demo insurance. not true.] The number of USPA PRO rating holders is just over 200. The number of different members that buy demo policies is between 200 and 300. From the 10-year report: Category # $ Average % *Demonstration Jumps 12 $1,001,231 $83,436 54% **Other 71 $ 395,802 $ 5,574 21% Plane in Flight 19 $ 222,640 $11,718 12% Plane on Ground 31 $ 146,463 $ 4,724 8% Auto on Ground 47 $ 90,779 $ 1,931 5% This is the breakdown of the claims. [I added a column of average.] We are small potatoes to the insurance carriers they are not going to make actuarial tables for such a small number. Third party insurance for individual members has been around since the early PCA days. It is one of the primary missions of USPA. In the 1960's it was optional. You paid an extra fee for coverage. Third party insurance for demos is a secondary mission for USPA. There are various opinions on how well demos recruit new jumpers. Some people claim that only a handful of people start jumping because they saw a jumper at a demo. Others claim that they get lots of new jumpers from demos. Obviously, the GK use demos effectively for recruiting. They recruit soldiers, in general, not only jumpers. Our insurance coverage is not something insurance carriers are out competing for. We have a tiny population base, ~35,000. Michelle Garvin compiled a list of 14 different options to change our insurance coverage. Options ranged from eliminating the insurance completely to bite the bullet and pay the higher premiums. Several other options were removing categories of coverage, i.e. aircraft on the ground etc., self-insurance and deductibles. Another option is to rearrange who pays the premiums based on who files the most claims (by $ and number of incidents). The numbers for self-insurance are the most attractive. There are two MAJOR obstacles with self-insurance: 1. Self-insurance would not meet city, county or state requirements at some DZs. 2. It would take a few years to fund it properly. You need something like $1M to 1.5M in the fund in order for it to qualify. There are also some administration type logistics obstacles that are non-trivial. The option that redistributes the premiums to the people filing the claims is only a proposal. Everyone realizes that a significant increase in the PRO rating fee and renewal will eliminate the backyard type demos or they would be done without insurance. The professional teams will pass this extra expense on to their customers. The number of PRO rating holders would probably drop significantly. There are also some other ways to set the demo premiums based on rating, experience, previous claim history, number of jumpers etc. USPA has a much larger number of individual members that do not want to see their membership fee increased because of increases in insurance premiums partially driven by demo jumps. USPA has NOT made any decision on what to do about the insurance. That will happen at the BOD meeting in Feb. The policy is renewed on March 1. I am crossing my fingers that Michelle has brow beat the carriers and found some better policies. They are supposed to be in by the end of the year (today). Michelle has done a TON of work on this. Hopefully, members will realize that any cost increases are not what we want and that we want to keep insurance for members. . Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker