muff528

this is just racist drivel... FAIL !

ap·par·ent (-prnt, -pâr-) adj. 1. Readily seen; visible. 2. Readily understood; clear or obvious. 3. Appearing as such but not necessarily so; seeming: an apparent advantage. I know ...it's kinda baffling, but you would probably have to ask the Arabs why they treat the Pals with such disdain ...apparently racist-like. It is the Arabs that ran the Pals out of their "countries" and keep them in "camps" ...and the Israelis that offered them citizenship. Someone else treating refugees poorly doesn't make you any less racist...not sure where you're heading with this line of reason...that since Arabs fight amoungst themselves it's ok to think they are inferior? LOL ok I acknowlege that you have conceded, and I accept your loss of this debate, by virtue of your (and dreamdancers's) repeated failure to rebut my main point (in various threads) and by your resorting to personal defamation in an attempt to deflect the argument. Just to be clear, and to give you another shot at rebuttal: My "main point", in a nutshell, is that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is now, and has been since the beginning, driven by Arab (or more generally, Islamic) hatred of Jews in general and resistance towards the formation of the state of Israel in particular. They have repeatedly used the Palestinians in attempts to gain sympathy (sometimes successfully) and to deflect world attention from their (stated, btw) agenda and from their own crimes. They have encamped (imprisoned?) the Palestinians in Arab countries, seemingly contrary to their claims of advocacy for the "Palestinian cause" which they, themselves, have fabricated. They have repeatedly launched various types of attacks against Israel and made rabid appeals to their allies and appeasers in the UN when Israel defended herself ... all this being done while whipping the Palestinians into a mal-informed, frenzied, hatred for Jews and the "Great Satan". I really don't know whether or not the Arabs' disdain for the Palestinians is rooted in racism. You and dream alluded to that prospect ...not me. Maybe there is some truth to it ...I don't know. Calling me a racist for pointing these things out is apparently (clearly or obviously) an attempt at diversion and "race-baiting". re·but (r-bt) v. re·but·ted, re·but·ting, re·buts v.tr. 1. To refute, especially by offering opposing evidence or arguments, as in a legal case. 2. To repel. v.intr. To present opposing evidence or arguments. edit for clarity.

ap·par·ent (-prnt, -pâr-) adj. 1. Readily seen; visible. 2. Readily understood; clear or obvious. 3. Appearing as such but not necessarily so; seeming: an apparent advantage. I know ...it's kinda baffling, but you would probably have to ask the Arabs why they treat the Pals with such disdain ...apparently racist-like. It is the Arabs that ran the Pals out of their "countries" and keep them in "camps" ...and the Israelis that offered them citizenship.

so it's all a racial thing... Apparently

> so you think syria shooting its protesters is bad... You do not?? > ... - but israel shooting its protesters is good. > mmmmm.... Of course not ...but these are not "protesters". Once again, Arabs are exploiting the Palestinian Arabs while falsely claiming to be their advocates.

This is a completely different thing. This is Syrian troops shooting Syrian citizens that oppose the government (been going on for weeks). Most likely the Syrian government is sending people to clash with Israel in an attempt to divert attention from its own internal clashes. Ooooopsy! ....my mistake!

This story has the number at around 100 best I can tell ...but probably a lot more.

Be sure to take steps protect your rights to any photos or footage you might submit.

Hmmmm.. I wonder ...is it the music that puts them to sleep ...or the seaweed and sealpuffs?

Disingenuous much? Do you seriously believe that life is good in Palestinian refuge camps? Well, I have been calling them "concentration camps" ....but I don't just make this stuff up. How about an opinion from the recent past President of the UN General Assembly ...the Libyan born Ali Abdussalam Treki. That's that's the same unbiased, even-handed UN that oversaw the IAEA director Mohamed ElBaradei who makes excuses for Iran's pursuit of "peaceful" nuclear ...uh ..stuff. ... and who recently applied for a job as leader of the new and improved anti-Israel Egypt. - "...It is a camp that is worse than the camps of the Nazis in the past." ~A.A. Treki, describing the Gaza camps, but in an effort to place the responsibility for their condition with Israel. These are camps which have existed since 1948 (under Egyptian control until 1967 and now under Palestinian/Arab control) ....and still they live in squalor while Iran's surrogates rain rockets on Israel and then hide behind the Pals when Israel is forced to retaliate.

Well, terrorism knows no ideology. Terrorism is terrorism whether the name is Arafat, Dohrn, Hitler, Adams, Bin Ladin, Reno, Mandala, Forsythe, Begin, Kaczynski, McVeigh, etc., etc., .... Neither does the use of terrorism as a tactic to further a cause determine whether or not that cause is valid, just, righteous, etc. And, neither are responses to terrorist attacks equivalent to terrorism.

so not really concentration camps then. why not call them refugee camps which is what they are and dump the hypberbole? Why are you more obsessed with what I call these camps... because you keep calling them concentration camps when they obviously are not. why do you hate all the arabs when it was europeans who committed the holocaust? I told you why. I call a duck a duck. Why are the Palestinians paying for Arab hatred of Israel?

I don't hate Arabs. But that doesn't mean I must support all their argument or actions, individually or collectively. I'm an equal opportunity opinionater.

so not really concentration camps then. why not call them refugee camps which is what they are and dump the hypberbole? Why are you more obsessed with what I call these camps than than you are with how the Palestinians are being treated by their "benefactors"? You haven't justified that yet. To me the camps seem to have more resemblance to a "concentration camp" than they do to a "refugee camp". That's certainly how they have been described in an effort to incriminate and disparage the Israelis.

You have hit the nail on the head hear. Yes, Palestinians have been wronged, so you're happy to let the palestinians pay the price for the european holocaust of the jews... A case could be made that the Arab's alliance with Hitler might have made them somewhat complicit in the Holocaust. (I wonder if their shared interest in "Jew-hating" was a factor in their alignment with the Nazis during WW2 and the Ottoman's alliance with anti-semitic factions prior to WW1? Just wondering.)

By "you" I meant "a person". No one has to call them anything. They are what they are. yes, refugee camps. concentration camps - as you are well aware - has a special connotation which you invoke when using the term... Yes ...it does. in that case you're just being silly... Really? Are you suggesting that the Palestinian "refugees" have chosen to live in camps for over a half century (and at least 3 to 4 generations) in poverty and in such wretched conditions when all they had to do was walk out and live in peace and equality among their deliverers? Don't you think it would have been much easier for them to join society in their rescuer's countries while working with them and petitioning and negotiating and planning attacks in their effort to reclaim "that which was taken"? Well, if they had a choice. The only difference between the so-called "refugee camps" and "concentration camps" is the fact that the Arabs don't even care enough about them to get their hands dirty eliminating them as long as they remain confined in their squalor and don't pollute their world. And the UN and human rights weenies don't seem to hold them accountable anyway so why bother with providing humane conditions. ...But most importantly, they can invoke the Palestinian condition for sympathy and hand-wringing by the appeasers and Jew-haters of the world while they continue in their efforts to eliminate Israel. They need the Palestinians to live ...but they need them to live in misery. That is the only reason they haven't followed the Nazi model. Well, that and they don't really care. ...and they'd have to get a pretty big mob together, and ... So, yes, ...other than the proactive gassing or head rolling or body-part swapping they are concentration camps, IMO.

You guys screwed up. You should have at very least put him into an old military rig with a lunchbox reserve. Maybe an old Bell helmet and some para boots. Surely one of your old CREW dawgs had an old ratted out rig around? Short of accually putting him on the plane, I'd have seen how far this Woofo was willing to go. All in good fun, of course? Next time, at least get them on video for our viewing pleasure. Why ruin a perfectly good vintage Bell helmet. Someone on here mentioned that they were bringing big money and I looked it up. They are! ...And I just recently tossed my old orange Bell RT boat racing helmet because the foam was deteriorated.

Well, they have found a way to live in peace with us. They have largely given up their culture and land in exchange for peace. Not trying to be judgmental ...it is just what happened. But I don't see your point here. Jordan, Syria, Egypt did not give up the land in the interest of peace. They used that land to stage a massive military buildup for the purpose of ending the state of Israel and they lost it. They did not try to take it back because they understood that they would get their asses waxed if they tried ...so they said "Let the Palestinians have it". They should have given it to the Pals pre-1967.

Thanks! I've been collecting details of this story (and others) for a few years. I'd heard my father tell the story of the B-17 ramming and his "kill" for years. Then I started doing some research and I and my dad were stunned by the amount of interest and information that could be had. The real breakthrough was when I was contacted by Marion's relative who had his effects, especially his diary. Marion's relative had been communicating with a couple of the German participants and he put me in contact with them. They are working with a group of very serious WW2 researchers and they wanted to get my dad's input and experiences. In turn Dad could provide Marion's family with some details of his friendship with Marion and Loyd. Dad was intensely interested in the research progress. He even agreed to participate in a PBS special about local WW2 vets before his death in 2008. I am hoping to locate any relatives of Loyd and clear up a couple of questions. Actually, I am doubting his age as remembered by Dad and also the spelling of his name. I would encourage anyone to interview their relative about their war experiences ...especially WW2 vets and Korean War vets. Time is not on your side. Get it down on paper. Better yet ...tape! No detail is too small or insignificant to record. A small detail may not mean much at the time but it will to someone. Marion's family did not know about the "See you at tea time" ritual until they heard from Dad.

The "neighboring countries" did/do not give a damn about the Palestinians. Never have. They went to war to eliminate Israel and they continue to use the Pals as expendable chess pieces in their efforts. I can't see into their hearts and minds but I can see what they have said and done and and what they continue to say and do. Same for the Israelis. I don't know how many different ways I can say that the Islamic Middle Eastern countries, to include non-Arabs as well, are using the Palestinians' condition, mostly caused by them, to incite hatred against Israel and to rally sympathy for their "cause". a while back you could have said that the european countries were using the jews' condition, mostly caused by them, to incite hatred against germany and rally sympathy for their zionist cause. you can say all sorts of twisted things. just because a people have had an injustice done to them doesn't mean they can then return that injustice to a different people... Yes, a lot of things can be said. But what happened was that the "proto-Nazis" et al. were using their own condition to blame and incite hatred against the Jews. The already growing anti-semitism in 19th C Europe (and Eastern Europe) was conveniently used to rally sympathy for the growing National Socialist movement. The Ottomans, who were aligned with them through the 1st WW and again during WW2 learned a lot from their Nazi allies.

By "you" I meant "a person". No one has to call them anything. They are what they are. yes, refugee camps. concentration camps - as you are well aware - has a special connotation which you invoke when using the term... Yes ...it does.

The "neighboring countries" did/do not give a damn about the Palestinians. Never have. They went to war to eliminate Israel and they continue to use the Pals as expendable chess pieces in their efforts. I can't see into their hearts and minds but I can see what they have said and done and and what they continue to say and do. Same for the Israelis. I don't know how many different ways I can say that the Islamic Middle Eastern countries, to include non-Arabs as well, are using the Palestinians' condition, mostly caused by them, to incite hatred against Israel and to rally sympathy for their "cause".

By "you" I meant "a person". No one has to call them anything. They are what they are. They were designed to "concentrate" the Palestinians into "camps" and to keep them from spoiling the general Arab populations. Many came from these regions originally anyway.

Semantics. But my point is that the "refugees" fled Israel (even though they were considered citizens of Israel) seeking "refuge" from their Arab brothers and were instead rounded up and imprisoned by the Egyptians and Jordanians in "refugee" camps. Here's a list of the concentration camps. Note that the ones in the WB and Gaza predate 1967 and most predate 1952 ...and, in fact, all the camps in Gaza predate 1950. semantics is calling refugee camps 'concentration camps'. semantics is saying that they were considered citizens of israel when they had no desire to be citizens of israel. semantics is saying they were seeking refuge 'from' neighbouring countries when they were seeking refuge from israeli violence. semantics is calling the populations of neighbouring countries 'arab brothers' when in fact they are completely different countries with different traditions and different history. Now you are "getting" it. One small point though ...by "from" the Arabs I meant the refugees were seeking help "from" them, not seeking help "because of" them. IOW, the refugees thought the Arabs would help them, but apparently, since they have completely different traditions and history the non-Palestinian Arabs thought it would be best to corral them in shantytowns (can you say "apartheid"?). This is what they did. You can call them "refugee camps", "concentration camps", "club med", or any other name but the reality for the Pals and their treatment by the Arabs is the same. The non-Pal Arabs had no desire for the Pals to become citizens of their countries. (...large numbers of "Palestinians" migrated to the "Mandate" area from those Arab countries ...your point brings up the possibility that maybe they migrated because of persecution? Just asking. I know that a lot of the migration had to do with the growing economic conditions brought to the region by the Jews post WWI ...but maybe persecution by fellow Arabs did have something to do with it?)

Semantics. But my point is that the "refugees" fled Israel (even though they were considered citizens of Israel) seeking "refuge" from their Arab brothers and were instead rounded up and imprisoned by the Egyptians and Jordanians in "refugee" camps. Here's a list of the concentration camps. Note that the ones in the WB and Gaza predate 1967 and most predate 1952 ...and, in fact, all the camps in Gaza predate 1950.