muff528

A 12 gauge is certainly a damn sight better than a shovel Well, if you're gonna use the shotgun you're probably gonna need the shovel, too.

He's Irish.

ditto back atcha I want to apologize for the flippant response to your post. I was still in the process of waking up and didn't immediately realize how profoundly your position had changed ...obviously as a result of this discussion. But you seem to have finally recognized the fact that the events of 1948 (over 6 decades ago) and 1967 (44 years ago) are just the way it is and that it is time for the Arab world, the greater Muslim world, and the "rest of the world" in general to accept this reality and to work out a solution that embraces the prospect for future peace and prosperity in the region.

Exactly. The world doesn't revolve around the union jack Stars and bars anymore, and the UK US of A is not nearly as important as the OP anyone thinks it is. Uh ...the "Stars and Bars" was the flag of the CS of A.

ditto back atcha

See?

You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. For some of us the notion that Israel has "won" the West Bank and Gaza through a "right of conquest" is difficult to understand given that neither Israel nor the US nor any other country officially makes that claim. That notion is used simply as a justification for "natural growth" (illegal under the Geneva Conventions) into areas that do not belong to Israel. Normally I would agree. The term "right of conquest" was a poor choice of words and wrongly conveys what I meant and maybe implies that I think Israel engaged in an adventurous campaign for the purpose of taking land. I don't believe that happened or was intended at all. Israel responded to a massive military buildup by multiple countries who had already declared, and had previously demonstrated, their malevolent intentions towards Israel. I don't buy the "first strike" argument for the 1967 war since that was just the latest event in a war that had been going on since at least 1948. Same war, same enemies ...and continuing even to the present day. Israel did what they had to do to ensure their survival at that moment. IMO these countries "forfeited" their rights to that land by their act of aggression. Keep in mind that this was not a 3rd party, "caught-in-the-middle" country of Palestine. These lands were parts of the 3 attacking countries. Unless someone can prove that "conquest" was Israel's intention in 1967 we will never agree on that point. Getting these lands was a deserved bonus for Israel. Doesn't hurt to have a little more property for settlements and strategic security, even if that wasn't the original intention. I am really more interested in opinions about treatment of Palestinians by Arabs. For starters: (1) Why did Egypt and Jordon not provide these same lands to the Palestinian people for a homeland prior to 1967 ...and why do they now demand that these lands should be the Palestinian homeland? (2) Why are hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people gathered in internment camps in the Arab countries, denied citizenship, and not allowed to assimilate into their populations?

"On a scale from 1 to 10 she's a 747."

Maybe the rapture did occur and nobody left!

I think he forgot to "carry the 2" when he was doing his "guzintas". Easy enough to make that mistake.

It is just baffling to me. Setting aside all other issues (questions of land, settlements, sovereignty, etc.) I just can't see how the Arabs get a pass by the UN and the rest of the world for their barbaric treatment of the "refugees" and Israel gets condemnation. I know that some folks put at least some faith in the UN but I have no respect for them and their convoluted machinations whatsoever (probably shows).

Sorry to be so short. Busy, but. “Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them.” --Ariel Sharon. This has been the policy that Israel has pursued in the last decade and a half and that the US has enabled, against it's own declarations. Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country.

Both statements are accurate. However stealing additional land in the West Bank won't protect Israel from a nuclear weapon (leave that to the US). But ceasing the expansion of Israel and working towards a mutually agreed upon border will go a long way towards defusing hostilities. We've allowed Israel to effectively expand its borders. We've said for decades that it should stop but we haven't had a President who didn't say it with a wink and a nod. I'd like to think that the current one is serious. However he's let me down before. Lobbyists are a bitch. Since the 1967 war Israel has returned all but the West Bank and the Golan Heights. It appears that they stopped their "expansion" on the 6th day of the war and since then have, in good faith, returned the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza ...a large part of the lands that were provided by three foreign countries to build up and prepare for a massive invasion against Israel and its Jewish and Arab citizens under the pretense that they were fighting for the freedom of the Palestinian people. There is zero evidence that Israel is planning any further expansion. Never happened before 1967 and hasn't happened since. Jordan, Syria, Egypt (and maybe a few other Arab countries) should use a smidgen of there vast wealth and throw a few crumbs to their Palestinian prisoners living in squalid conditions in the many concentration camps in their countries.

Ah, yes! ...the Arab Terms of Unconditional Surrender, AKA the Arab Peace Initiative (which was undermined "the day before the initiative was published"). Israel would abandon any claim to the forfeited territories of Golan Hts., the West Bank, and Gaza. Israel will turn over complete control of East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. Israel will honor the so-called "right of return" for "refugees" and their descendants. These are he same Arab League countries that immediately attacked Israel at the time of its independence and decried Israel's existence 20 years before they forfeited the "occupied territories" as a result of a similar aggression in 1967. Israel would be foolish to agree to these dictated terms. Also, the "Arab Spring" uprisings are in the process of changing governments of these nations in such a way that Israel can not expect any agreement to be honored by these countries. To be sure, Israel's days are numbered anyway. The only reason Israel even exists today is that the Arab League countries know that Israel (unlike the US, et al) doesn't fuck around when it comes to defense and war. But now Israel's allies are going flat and their adversaries are unifying and forming strong alliances with others. They are ridding themselves of despotic leaders that have been able to keep their anti-Israel hatred restrained and "un-unified" or disparate. The UN is mostly controlled by anti-Israel interests and has populated its laughable "Human Rights Commission" with either weak-kneed appeasers or openly anti-Jew members ...so no help there. The 1948 Palestinian "refugees" were shunned and denied entry into their Arab neighbors' countries after Israel purged their land of the Arab Liberation Army (which included many fighters from the Arab League, ex-Nazis, and other European and Balkan mercenaries and Jew-haters). Some of these "refugees" were either aiding the ALA or participating in the fighting and fled the scene. That evacuation from Israel was a direct result of actions by the Arab League and the ALA. Now their "benevolent and compassionate" Arab "brothers", who herded them like animals into internment camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, are demanding their repatriation as if they won a war or something. Quite the opposite. Disgusting.

I dunno. I'm willing to cut her a little slack with this one. Kinda hard picking which ones are the good guys this time.

All my friends and relatives are still here. I guess I need to start hanging out with a different crowd.

I think I'm glad that I don't even know what that is.

Maybe in theory. Lebanon is a sovereign country, Israel was attacked repeatedly by Hezbollah from Lebanon (not to mention its also a part of the government) yet when Israel responded, it was condemned, as always... Yes, the little Israeli girls were writing on shells that were meant for these guys, not Palestinians. But even attacks from Lebanon are still being carried out against Israel while using their claimed support for the Palestinians as "justification" even though they, as a nation, have no dog in that fight. Israel showed great restraint (as requested by its "allies") in retaliation for the rocket attacks by Hezbollah. Once Palestine is brought into existence that excuse evaporates and Lebanon (Syria) and Hezbollah (Iran) would also be put on notice. The real objective of 60+ years of aggression towards Israel would be revealed because my bet is that the violence would not cease. Edit to add: ...but there is a new problem for Israel. The Islamic nations are in the process of aligning with Russia or China and there may be some treaties in the process of being worked out that may not bode well for Israel or its ability to defend itself. The "Arab Spring" countries are also "loose cannons" right now and it remains to be seen where their heads are ...or will be. Lemme guess

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-has-invited-america-to-punish-israel-1.363226 So, Obama's plan ...cede the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to the new country of Palestine. Israel will keep some land and existing settlements in the West Bank in exchange for the borderlands along the Jordan River from Galilee southward to the Red Sea and along the Egyptian border northward to Gaza. This will create the Palestinian border with Jordan and Egypt and it will result in Israel sharing a border only with Palestine, Lebanon (and the Golan Heights which was not mentioned in Obama's proposal). Israel will also lose direct access to the Gulf of Aqaba and the Red Sea. Obama does say in the speech that this will not resolve two other sticking points, Jerusalem and the so-called "right of return". Of course, they can resolve these matters peacefully through diplomacy once "Palestine" is established. It's all sunshine and lollipops from then on. I do see an advantage for Israel with this deal ...there would now exist two sovereign countries and any attacks originating from either country against the other could be could be considered an act of war under rules which are pretty much accepted by the rest of the world and the attackee can retaliate against the attacker (and its providers) without having to listen to the world's whiners piss and moan (too much). There would be no need to show much restraint in retaliation against aggression. Palestine will inherit some responsibility along with their newly-gained sovereign rights.

OK, last time ...Someone help me understand how returning to the 1967 borders is the solution for finally achieving peace in the region when prior to 1967 those very same borders were completely unacceptable.

That has already proven to be non-workable ...in 1967. And how is this "contiguous" Palestine to be worked out. It seems that the Obama plan includes a veiled allusion that the 1967 borders are not all that Israel is to concede. I'm pretty sure that there will be no new land given up by Jordan and Egypt to create this contiguous Palestinian state. (although there may be some incentive by future radical governments of these countries to give up a little land for access into "Palestine" to the Israeli border. I just realized this. No blockades, no hiding weapons shipments, no worry about personnel and equipment movements being hindered, no interference by the UN ...Oh wait, they are not interfering now.) "...The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their full potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state. ..." ~ B. Obama, 2011 Also, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to know that even if a solution is secured in this way that the new sovereign nation of "Palestine" will allow unfettered access by Islamist militant groups and make an excellent, and willing, platform for staging attacks on Israel by their avowed enemies. Israel knows that this would mean their demise. They would be out of their minds to accept this ridiculous "solution". " ...But I am also fortunate to have seen Israel from the air. On my journey that January day, I flew on an IDF helicopter to the border zone. The helicopter took us over the most troubled and dangerous areas and that narrow strip between the West Bank and the Mediterranean Sea. At that height, I could see the hills and the terrain that generations have walked across. I could truly see how close everything is and why peace through security is the only way for Israel. ... ....Just six months after I visited, Hezbollah launched four thousand rocket attacks just like the one that destroyed the home in Kiryat Shmona, .... ....It is important to remember this history—that Israel had unilaterally withdrawn from Lebanon only to have Iran supply Hezbollah with thousands of rockets. Our job is to never forget that the threat of violence is real. Our job is to renew the United States’ efforts to help Israel achieve peace with its neighbors while remaining vigilant against those who do not share this vision. ..." ~ B. Obama, 2008

I doubt that Israeli children would be writing on bombs destined for Hezbollah and Hamas targets if Iran, et al had kept their asses out of there. Well, at least they are writing on bombs and not wearing them. they don't need to wear them as they have planes to drop them for them... (much easier) Ahh, yes ...that makes perfect sense. "Let's strap bombs on our children to blow up Israeli citizens in retribution for attacks by Israeli jets which are targeting military positions in retribution for rocket attacks by foreign-influenced terror organizations whom we are allowing to use our citizens as human shields so we can become even more filled with rage as our citizens are killed which, of course, further justifies the use of our kids as bombs." It is up to the Palestinian people to break that cycle by ridding themselves of Hamas and others who are not acting in the interests of the Palestinians. If not, Israel will certainly continue to strike back at the attackers ...while continuing to receive condemnation from the UN and the rest of the Jew-haters in the world. But it's probably too late for that now and Israel is now pretty much on its own.

I doubt that Israeli children would be writing on bombs destined for Hezbollah and Hamas targets if Iran, et al had kept their asses out of there. Well, at least they are writing on bombs and not wearing them. Palestinians have been offered "peace" in Israel since the beginning. Some actually live it. ...that's more than they ever got from their Arab neighbors.

http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/111/defusing-the-demographic-time-bomb The problem is not that they are, or ever were, worried about being out-populated by their growing Arab/palestinian population, but by a growing population of militant Jew-haters.