packerboy

Absolutely there is a difference when safety is involved. First and foremost every tandem instructor should reserve the right to refuse should they not feel that it is in the best interest of safety to go. Whether it is a student that is too large, out of shape, small in winds, drunk, or if the instructor is just plain too tired to perform at the level necessary or any other reason that the instructor feels that it is not safe. Telling someone that they are too fat to safely jump is one thing. Telling them that they are too fat to pay the same price as the guy standing beside them IMO is the same as telling them they are too black, chinese or gay. To the OP, I understand you were not charged this tax and I apologize for hijacking this thread. Hopefully you pick yourself up, and if you are in good shape great, if not , get in shape and come back. Ultimately the number one focus of any business should be treating your customers with respect and equality as a human being and doing what it takes to retain their future business. Hopefully your next DZ experience won't end up with a broken something. IMO, and my disclaimer is that I am not an instructor. However I did work for one of the pioneers of the sport who invented IAD (Instructor Assisted Deployment, allegedly) as one of the safest mainstream training method for solo first time jumpers. He trains only by doing tandems first now. Tandem is still the way to go until you get accustomed to what your mind is going to go through when you are taken out of your element and put in a position where you are exiting an aircraft in flight. Everyone's response to this sort of sensory shock is different and you honestly don't know what it is going to be until you experience it. it is best to have someone with you that really knows what the hell they are doing and has their full wits about them in case something goes wrong. Because it can, and it sometimes does. Get a couple of those out of the way and you are on your way. 2 or 3 tandems in the grand scheme of things if you are going to become a jumper and do hundreds or thousands of jumps is really going to be a drop in the bucket and you will be glad to have done them. There are other roads to go down, but I think even Ron and Diablopilot would agree with me that tandem is the best. I'm sure they would disagree that it is gay too. Maybe.. I don't know what I don't know you know? I'm sure either one of these dudes that I have been arguing with here would be a great choice as a tandem instructor. That have tonnes of jumps, they know their shit better than most and are extremely passionate about their sport. They probably have the best lame jokes out there too. I bet they are pretty awesome guys when they aren't behind a keyboard disagreeing with you. Of course I would've bet the Patriots were going to win the Superbowl too.. Good luck. Blue Skies. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I guess I went at it backasswards. I learned how to pack to pay for my freefall course. Trying to get the course done and packing rental rigs 2 minutes after landing while jacked up on adrenaline didn't work great though. Packed 2 locked up break "malfunctions" while doing it. Missed the ring on the daisy chain and the toggles wouldn't unstow. Dude chopped it twice. Probably not worthy of a chop but I sure felt like an asshole watching him land under reserve twice that weekend because I made the same mistake. Had a lot of beers in his trailer that weekend... Probably a lot different at a small dropzone since every student is a potential staff member coming down the pipe, and was worth a bit of a push start in learning how to do these things. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I'll kill a few birds with this stone. No I was not. The picture in my profile is me. I am clearly "mediocre" sized. Black people knew they where sitting at the back of the bus because they were black too. Yes i did. I just compared it with racism again, because I feel that discrimination is discrimination. I know when I went to do my first tandem they could've robbed me blind with extra fees, I was there and I wanted to do it bad. Thank god I didn't call Skyride. I'd still be paying off the loan. Sometimes losing weight is really not THAT easy, although I cannot speak from experience because I'm not fat. Oh shit, I've gone and done it again.. ZERO knowledge to make that last comment. My take on losing weight means shit. My bad. Maybe if the tandem instructors can't handle the extra weight THEY should hit the gym. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/local/bc/x-rays_show_memory_card_in_hang_gliders_body_rcmp/1d205788 X-rays confirm. I'm really surprised there isn't some bullshit ego contest in the incidents forum going on about this right now. Sad. There is nothing else to say. Notice how they stripped his license immediately. If I remember correctly I commented on the incident about the TI leaving not connected fully feeling that I thought their license should be rescinded immediately and was pounded by TI's telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about because I wasn't a TI. It was an honest mistake that could happen to anyone. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

1 yr is fine. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I'm quite prepared to make that deal. How's this one? www.childhoodobesityfoundation.ca/ Here's how you make your donations. Address to send the cheque is at the bottom. http://www.childhoodobesityfoundation.ca/donations -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

We are seemingly deadlocked with semantics. You've had pretty good rebuttals to this point, but none than I can really agree with, and it's just starting to get repetitive and boring. I'll call it discrimination, you call it what you want. I'll take your points into consideration and not really change my opinion. You can call me a moron subtly without actually calling me a moron so you can say you've never called me moron and we just go see who can jump more cars on their skateboard and call it a day? That way we won't have to show Remster that not every dick can be measured with a micrometer. He doesn't need to know what he doesn't know. :) Insert diablopilots signature line here-->

Was 182/206 DZ for the most part up until they got a King Air last year... -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

You were right about one thing Ron, I just couldn't let it go. I was going to, but that that big internet dick kept being shoved in my face. I was going to type all that out, but I didn't feel the need because diablopilot already did. I knew all that. So what is left? I don't know how heavy the tandem rig is? Actually I do, because I carried them around on the ground a lot. I don't know what it it is like to move around in the plane with a student attached to you? Well I've been in the plane while it is being done and I have eyes and ears. It's really not that hard to imagine. I don't know how hard it is to flare with a student on you? Well I do know what it takes to flare some parachutes with some weight, so i can somewhat imagine the difference. Not withstanding, my TI did let me try to flare myself a couple times to see what it was like. So I have an idea. I'll assume that diablopilot just left all the gear checking and in flight handle checks out because he didn't feel like boring us with all the details.

: Quote Seems like those who do not share my opinion (which is fine) are the ones who feel their ego as a sky god TI is in question. It is not. I test your morals not your ego, if you cannot discuss one without the other than that's your issue. Not mine. Comments like that is why it becomes a dick measuring contest. You admit you have no idea how hard it is, yet you insult anyone that dares not agree with you. I probably didn't word that right. What I meant is that the certain people who are the ones who have chosen to argue my point in this here forum seem to be the same ones who have been swinging their inflated sky god ego around here for as long as I can remember. I certainly did not mean that they are egotistical BECAUSE they disagree with my theory. Actually, the dick measuring contest began when I was told that I have zero experience and I have no idea what I am talking about therefore my opinion holds no weight. It isn't my comment that made it a dick measuring contest It was this one from diablpilot: In Reply To I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor. Then your comments on the matter mean exactly shit. I can't even really think of a more condescending remark. When I replied to this by stating that while I haven't personally done tandems, I didn't just start going to the dropzone last week. I've been around the dropzone for a little while and have eyes and ears. I don't need to whack down 7000 trees to understand that logging is hard work. And for the umpteenth time, I never said that doing heavy tandems isn't harder. My post about my experience was met by a post by someone who says well I'VE done this, and I'VE done this, and I'VE done this.. so your experience is shit and doesn't matter. I didn't start the dick swinging contest. I just have the intelligence to see through the subtle ad hominem attack and chose to reply with a blunt, in your face "skygod" attack back. I admit that my response had nothing to do with the actual argument. But if some douchebag is going to try and refuse my argument by shoving his big internet dick down my throat, I certainly retain the right to spit it out as opposed to crawling into a corner and sucking on it. I'll take the few positive responses I got for little support from those who smartly chose not to get involved in the whole trolling incident that I have regretfully been a part of and move on. But for what it's worth, when it comes to me and how much I do actually know ->ron, diablo, you don't know what you don't know.. right? I have never done tandems so I guess you know that I'm deaf and blind. I surprised your heads fit in the same room as the keyboard you spew your egotistical shit onto. I will let it go now. There's really no point in trying to argue equality to someone who thinks the little box on the side which has bigger numbers on it makes him genetically superior. I will take home some arguments from others who I believe have softened my opinion on the matter by throwing out some logical argument instead of their dick. Still haven't been pushed over the fence though. Sorry for the poor formatting, most of these posts were from my phone. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I will admit that I do not know how much harder to do a tandem with a 100lber than it is a 225lber. This much I give you. I have zero experience doing tandems. I do however get knowledge and opinions about skydiving related things from people who do. Real people, not just ones on the Internet. I have had this discussion with tandem instructors before in the flesh. It was mulled over at the drop zone and dismissed almost unanimously. However. Once again. I NEVER said it wasn't harder. Not once. I said I felt it was wrong to charge extra. Seems like those who do not share my opinion (which is fine) are the ones who feel their ego as a sky god TI is in question. It is not. I test your morals not your ego, if you cannot discuss one without the other than that's your issue. Not mine. I did say that it is harder to pack 40 tandems than it is to do 15 tandems. That comes from second hand information I got at 10:00pm with tandem instructors who have been packers standing around in the hangar on their 3rd beer while I finished up the half dozen or so pack jobs left after the last load. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Dick measuring contests are about ego. I'm really not sure where my ego came into it. I just threw a few numbers out there to try and point out that my experience is not completely baseless. Alas, I digress. I know fuck all. I bow down to you sky gods. Enjoy your extra $10 or whatever. I almost forgot that every thread on this fucking website is a dick measuring contest. I hold my ground that charging someone who is 195lbs and someone who is 225lbs a different price for a tandem jump is tasteless. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

So why does someone who weighs 90lbs pay less? And who has calculated the actuall difference of the cost of wear and tear on the gear? And how many thousands of percent of markup ate you making on that wear and tear per jump? Sure. It costs a different amount to treat people equal. Not debating that. It should be absorbed is what I'm saying. I've seen it absorbed by a small market Cessna drop one without putting them under. And the TI's didn't bitch about it either. Only time I've seen a TI bitch about taking a certain size passenger is a 140lb girl taking a 100lb passenger in winds. Or a 225lb instructor coming into the rotation with a 200lb passenger. Legitimate reasons for concern. Charge what you want. IMO TI's and DZO's should put of their big girl panties. Many agree with me. Although no one here seems to want to. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I've been present for the operations of thousands of tandem jumps. I've been very close friends with TI's for years who have collectively done tens of thousands of tandem jumps. I've been in a Cessna 182 hundreds of times with tandem pairs. I worked for and spent hours and hours talking to a DZO who has owned the oldest drop zone in Canada since its inception and has been in the sport for 50+ yrs. I have packed probably close to a thousand tandem rigs and probably as many sport rigs. I've done 5 tandem jumps as a passenger. You are absolutely correct, I have absolutely NO CLUE because I have never ridden the back of a tandem passenger and have no right to an opinion that has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much more work a tandem jump with a heavier passenger is. I have never once said it isn't more work. I merely stated that charging someone more money for the exact same product based on their physical attributes is discrimination, and it stinks to high heaven. Feel free to continue discriminating because you make more money doing so. It's your right. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I am only a beginner, but what I think is, there is no relevant connection between fall rate and landing/flaring. Except may be that the faster you come down the better the flaring actually works. But from the physics you have to understand that flaring is not the same as 'air-braking' like it worked with vintage round canopies. In fact, what you do when flaring is you change the shape of your wing and create a course change from 'going down' to 'going up' - exactly like when a pilot of an airplane changes the shape of the wings to create upstream or downstream. Landing a modern canopy is timing the moment of the course change to the right distance above ground in order to relatively to the earth decrease the speed. But the speed change does not come from air braking - only from the directional change. (bit difficult to explain in English / not my mother tongue) Therefore the before reached velocity has no influence on the quality of the "brake", except for the fact that if you are not fast enough, the flare will not function and thus no directional change can happen... my five cents Prada Someone should tell the swoopers that they are killing themselves diving at the ground for no reason! -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Maybe if a TI is willing to go the distance to make a buck for his/her dz and has superior skills, knowledge, and experience they should get paid a bit more for EVERY jump. You know, kinda how the rest of the business world works. You have a more valuable employee, you pay them more. The only remote possible way that I can see this not being discrimination is to call it a fuel surcharge tax because it costs more in fuel to carry more weight. However, if that were the case then fun jumpers over 200lbs should have to pay more. Depending on conditions I seem to remember Ti's wanting to do the big guys at our DZ. Perhaps it was speed they were looking for... There was obviously no shortage of TI's willing to take the ladies for obvious reasons, but I seem to remember our smaller TI's not wanting to take the really small students. I think what needs to be remembered is that this is not UPS. UPS hauls parcels, inanimate objects. These are human beings going out to experience the thrill of a lifetime. They won't think twice to pay an extra $20 because they are there and have already tossed down a couple hundred. It's because of that they are being taken advantage of. "I'm not saying there's only one way of doing things, but at the extremes I'm not going to say no to extra pay as a TI." - You should IMO. You are still getting a ride to altitude at someone elses expense. Take a stand against discrimination. It's not exactly throwing an "n" bomb at someone, but it is the same principle IMO. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Then do not ever become a TI. I guess you get paid the same for packing a Tandem or a sport rig? Do you give a discount to the guy with a small velo? I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor. If I did, I would not work at a dropzone that promotes discrimination. It's simple. You are either too big to jump safely or you are not. I got paid a different amount for sport rig and tandem because they are two different things which contributed to very different revenue streams for the DZ. I did not however get paid extra to pack a new tandem canopy as opposed to an "experienced" one just because it was harder work, or a Sigma rig vs. an older Vector rig. I do a job where my customers can be WILDLY different. One can be a major pain in my ass while the next can be an awesome pleasant experience. They all get the same job done for the same amount because the cost of technical support is not relative to the IQ of the person buying it from me. There is no reason why the DZ can't switch it up with the big ones to prevent one instructor from getting overworked with them. If it isn't workable, then maybe the allowable safe limit should be reduced. The "You have never been a tandem instructor, you don't know what it is like" argument just doesn't work for me. Packing 40 tandem rigs in a day is sure as hell harder work than doing 15 tandem jumps. And I've done a hell of a lot harder work than packing tandem rigs before. If you can't do the job you signed up for then don't do it. But to go to your boss and say "You know what.. I feel like I worked a little harder than usual this afternoon because the people I had to work with were fat and not as helpful. I think you should give me a few bucks more an hour just when I work with fat people." is downright ludicrous. IMO You know what Jackie Robinson? If we had you on our baseball team it may just be a little bit harder to deal with the press, you know, what with you being black and all. And it might be a little bit harder to sell tickets because, you know, people really aren't that used to a black person around here. So we are just going to go ahead and take a little off your salary to compensate for the harder work that we are going to have to do... I mean.. it is going to be a little tougher for us.. Because, well, you just aint the same. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Ok. So how's this for an idea: Discuss the incident, but leave out the name of the deceased, the location of the incident and the date of the incident. Those who know the facts will know what incident is being discussed and can contribute accordingly, those who don't do not need to learn in a public forum that information that could be used to harm... If someone is really concerned and is in the need to know the more personal information can find it elsewhere. Those ambulance chasing lawyers wouldn't have so much conjecture to use as cannon fodder. Family/friends won't feel as much like their loved one is being trashed, and more incidents are likely to be reported if anonymity is respected. Might work, might not. Just throwing it out there. Btw, if you learned something about making a decision about jumping in weather from that balloon thread I would be surprised... Knowing that it can sneak up on you out of nowhere isn't really going to help you unless you stop aviation activities completely when there is a cloud within 100 miles. We all know how well that'll work. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

And then what? I've taken everyone from 90 lbs to 210 and they all pay the same and get the same treatment. Except I do know that sometimes it takes a little more work to give a customer the same treatment as others. Just because it is in another business shouldn't matter. I know plenty of tandem instructors who think it is wrong. Would you charge extra to take a disabled person because it is more work? It's greedy. Suck it up and do the job yOu get paid for. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

And what would the recommendation be for someone who had 600 or so jumps and has been out for 5 yrs? Not saying I'm going back. Just wondering what the consensus here is.. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Perhaps you are better served by speculation and analytical posts about accidents that occur with similar root causes than many more before them. Who is not better served is the deceased, their family and their friends and the businesses who may JUST lose big if speculation and analytical posts become conjecture and are taken to be true because they can not be proved false. When I skydived (have been out for 5 years now), I lurked the forums incessantly, including the incidents. I was an information whore. I just wanted to know everything about everything. I go on every few months now and just check things out just for nostalgia sake and to keep up with what is going on. I really have no invested interest as a skydiver anymore though. In the 5 years that I spent all over these forums when I was skydiving, I could count on one hand the number of posts in the incidents forum that I learned something new from. Most of them had to do with meteorology and general aviation. The general skydiving section and the safety and training section have a WAY better record of actually doing good for furthering the knowledge of gear, aviation, and general safety stuff for people. The incidents forum is really just the train wreck on the side of the highway that you can't look away from. It has probably done more emotional harm to people than it has done good. (Counting that the information discussed in most of the posts is redundant to what has already been learned and is discussed in less intrusive and less morbid forums). Feel free to go back and dig up some post of mine from way back that speaks to the contrary, I know how we roll here. I have changed a lot in the 5yrs since I was a really active poster. The balloon incident thread is a prime example about how these things can do more harm for the family and friends than good to the "dz.com" community. I'm actually surprised there isn't a bunch of bullshit banter going on in the incidents forum about the tandem chick that fell off the hanglider in BC the other day. Wait for it.... it's coming. Don't get me wrong, the information learned from incidents is important. But to think that dz.com incidents forum is the be all end all place to learn from others mistakes is a bit megalomaniac no? Only a very small percentage of jumpers I knew actually read or gave two shits about this site. Yet they learned somehow. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

#1. You go to a nearby skydiving dropzone. (You can find information on many reputable ones on this website) #2. You talk to a skydiving instructor about your situation. #3. You do not listen to any answers that you get on this website except for this one. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

My buddy's brother in law was a strength/conditioning trainer for the Montreal Canadians. His girlfriend was a big fan. He took her to a game in Montreal and got his b/law to give them a tour of the dressing room before the players showed up. He had one jersey hanging up with his last name on the back of it. She says "look they gave you a jersey! No fair! Where's mine?" He says "It's right here" and spins it around and it also has his last name on it. She basically says "WTF, it's your name". So he gets down on his knee, does his thing and asks if she would like to share his last name... She says yes and they open the doors and all the players come in to congratulate them. His proposal.. my idea. Now I'm trying to figure out how to top it. I'm thinking Machu Pichu will be a good start. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

My dog Me My boy Rory in mommy's hands Rory in my puny grasp... I'm lucky I'm not to weak to hold him!! -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson