packerboy

That was awesome! A true expert shown in action! Hats off. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Threatened the fact that all the beer in the fridge is MINE! -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

So many guys say "Why are good looking women such bitches?" I say "It's because if they're nice and smile at you, you act like they want to have your baby." It is SO SO unfortunate that their are SO many threats out there that it really has ruined things for nice guys. It's why I used to HATE clubs. Seemed like it was all about dickhead men scoping out the drunkest (have forgotten all about this sort of stuff) women and if that didn't work out they were out to get in a fight. Tough to have fun in a place like that for some average Joe just out to socialize. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I was going to say he forgot to bring his face... -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

haha, ya ull get a beer. I can always rent a rig, leave, unpack it, and walk back in. True, but you will have to pay for the pack job.. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I was more scared doing a bungee jump after 400 skydives. Too friggen close to the ground. I bet the first time you huck yourself off a building downtown in the dark would probably do it, or a bridge, or cliff, tower... -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

C'mon now.. did you see that on a video? LOL. jk! I have to admit, I think I would probably make a sorry assed attempt to land it and kill myself and the pilot in the process. Screw the airport though, I wouldn't turn. Just trying and figure out how the flaps work and then gently ease forward on the yoke until I could figure out how to get it back to level from slight decline and then take her down nice and slow until I find a great big field and then put her down and shut the key off, More than likely doing a front flip into the dirt and ending it all for myself. Edited to add: On second thought, I would probably be more useful to jump out and run for help... -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I wouldn't dismiss the idea of doing a tandem first. It is a tonne of fun still, and it helps to get over the fear when you have someone strapped to your back who has thousands of jumps and knows what they are doing there to take care of the minor details like not dying. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

All good answers so far. Can I just say "What he said" and get beer if I see you? I will say you should get your own rig as soon as possible. A: you don't have to pay rental fees. B: If you get one that fits properly, things will generally be more comfortable. C: If you don't feel like packing at the end of the day, you don't have to. Stuff it in a gear bag and get it next time. All the coolest skydivers show up to the dz with an unpacked rig ;) -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Meh, I'll giver a go! For enough money anything is possible... ;) Edited to add: PS: No fatties please. That actually looks hard. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Where I did my first tandem, they had a garbage landfill not too far off the end of the runway. We taxied to one end and it just smelled horrible. TI: "Do you smell that?" Me: "Yeah, it's horrible" TI: "You want to know what it is?" Me: "sure" TI: "It's the smell of fear... New pilot, first time taking off on a short grass runway, and the left flap is seized up. Welcome to our perfectly good airplane!" -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

If they just let students watch a video and go skydiving without any formal instruction from an experienced instructor they would literally have to hire a paramedic crew and coroner on staff. Most people wouldn't just get it like you think you would. I don't think I'm really exaggerating. It would put others in the air at risk as well. You can go skydiving without having to take any sort of course. All you need is a rig, a plane, and a pilot.

Best point made in this thread so far. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I can't reply to much of your last post because I gave you the last word.. but inside I am LMFAO because you simply don't understand how much the experience in the field that you have more of than me (doing tandems) has really no bearing on what my opinion was about (pricing structures). I really don't think many dzo's give a shit what people have to go through to get the job done. What they care about is how much money they can get out of the finished product. It's just business after all. (To most of them anyway). Like I said.. as far as I'm concerned, your opinion on the matter means exactly shit to me, mostly because you are arguing about something totally different because somehow you felt your awesomeness was being challenged by me saying that doing tandems isn't hard. Which in fact I never said. But I do have to say this piece, because you did just laid down a personal attack on my character. You offered me a deal 3 times with having a clue what you were getting in to because you have NO CLUE who you are talking to and you weren't expecting me to actually take it. I didn't "negotiate" anything. You did ALL the negotiating. It was actually only when you found out that my total sum of tandem pack jobs to sport pack jobs was going to be $0 that YOU backed out on the deal that YOU were offering. That was just YOU being stupid. I passed on the deal a couple times, but you kept on shoving it down my throat to prove a point. I've got a bridge I can sell you... And you also have said all that I need to know about you. So piss off. Really.. just piss off. Sorry.. I went and gave you that present... and you took it. And then I went and took it back. I guess I negotiated the last word thing in bad faith. My bad. Here, now you can have it for real.... go ahead. It's ok. Take it. Here, I'll throw it on the floor in front of you and I won't look. It's ok boy.... *looking away* pffft -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Perhaps the extra "fat tax" is not about the DZ's bottom line (at least not in any direct way)... perhaps the extra pittance is merely a "tip", a token symbolic gesture the DZ makes to the TI/TM to show appreciation of them taking on the heavier people? And like all emotional gestures, to make it count this has to be publicized and not a behind the doors allocation. This is perhaps the real reason it is not "priced in" by a flat rate. By charging heavy people more and doing it directly and in an open manner, it leaves less room for TI/TM to say "no" and emotionally pressures them into saying "YES". It gives the heavy customer more "power" because now they can say they "paid" for it. Basically, the heavy dude now can (indirectly) insinuate that the TI/TM is a "wuss" if they rejected him/her due to weight issues or concerns when they were under the hard limit. Even though the extra fee is not equitable to the extra risk. After running some simplistic numbers it now seems more like an emotional play on the TI/TM than a full and straightforward "financial" compensation of any proportional or equitable means. This tax is probably less about the DZ trying to recuperate lost margins from heavy people than appeasing and making an emotional appeal backed by a token symbolic financial gesture to the TI/TM to take them on at all, otherwise like you said the DZ is out the $300 completely. Perhaps the heavier people should be THANKING the DZ for this physiologically manipulative (just my theory) tax that compels the TI/TM to take on heavy people that they otherwise would turn down? If $20 is going to convince a TI to take someone that they would normally turn down for safety reasons, this is NOT the TI that you want to be jumping with IMO.. But my opinion on the matter, how do I put it? "Means shit" I think it was. Only way to know for sure is to ask someone with 5K+ tandem jumps.. :) -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

That would be great if price wasn't such a concern to DZs. If you want to the least amount of money the DZ, TI, pilot or packer is willing to take for a tandem, just call the office and ask the regular price of a tandem and that will be it. What they charge is the lowest everyone is willing to work for, and then a sur-charge builds off of that. For to some sort of 'average' deal, with higher and lower prices for larger or smaller people, you would need to raise the everyday rate for 'average' people so you had room to discount the light-weights, and that's just not going to happen. Unlike AFF or almost any other personal service provided, taking a tandem involves literally physically moving a person around. Be it in the plane, on the step, or the increased toggle pressure under canopy, more weight equals more work, and the TI should be compensated. As should anyone who works hard at their job. But if I get a raise or promotion because I work my ass off and get there. it is not a selective group of my customers that is chosen to pay for that raise, it comes from the operating costs of the business. A lot of my customers are way harder to deal with than others. That's just human nature. Most of why they are harder to deal with in my industry is just simply because they are pricks. Much better reason to charge them more than others than being big. I don't disagree with tandem instructors being compensated for working harder. I'm pretty sure that I have never said that. I would have a problem if someone got hired at a dropzone that does not compensate extra and then bitches about it afterwards. Would it not be more beneficial to the dz to say charge $1 more to every customer to cover the added costs of taking the big ones (costs including, but not limited to the extra bit of pay to the TI)? I'm sure this would make even more money and would eliminate the stigma of singling out people and possibly losing a customer or two that may be offended. Just a thought... -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

That sux donkey balls -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Calling 1-800-skyride right now. They can get me in right? -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

LOL. No actually, I'm being quite entertained by bullshit ego fests in other threads. I don't get entertained by ones in the incidents forum. I'm just surprised. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

FYI: It's a standard skydiving expression, looking down on non-skydivers. If skydivers feel someone is unsuited to our sport, we joke that they should be told to TUB - take up bowling. That's nothing against bowling, just that bowling is safer. Bowlers don't end up as limp, crunchy bags of meat and bone fragments if they are stupid or incompetent. Well we have made up some pretty silly and crazy bowling type games in the hangar on rainy days before that have near those consequences... -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Let's ask someone with knowledge of gas consumption in a plane and rigging knowledge. Most of what I can see is that DZ's add the "tax" something like this.. @210 you start paying the tax ($20 extra) @ 230 you can't jump. Or something like that. If max weight of the reserve is 500lbs, then that 20lb window is about 4% the amount of total weight on the system (at max loading) Skydive Dallas charges $400 for a premium tandem package. $20 is 5% of $400 Obviously the price range of tandems at different dropzones is different and the weight of the TI is variable. There are lots of variables. So much in fact that I don't know why I even started with numbers. Start again. Is the $20 extra that the student pays enough, not enough, or more than enough to pay for the added operational cost?Or such a pittance that it is completely arbitrary when it comes to the extra gas, wear and tear on gear, and extra wages for the TI? For arguments sake, I'll say that the business owners value the TI that does the extra and compensates. What percentage of students fall into the category of paying this tax? Even if it is 10%, that means 9/10 tandem passengers don't fall into that category, and slightly less than 90% of the total weight you are carrying is not paying the extra little bit of revenue. Let's say a DZ brings in a million bucks in revenue. How much of that revenue is from the tax? How much more does it cost the DZ to carry 5lbs here and 10lbs there? I'm willing to bet.. and I could be way off, that the majority of the revenue from this tax goes back into the pockets of the TI's, and the amount that the DZ receives is really kind of arbitrary when it comes to operating costs. Probably in the micro percentages. That being said, if you don't have TI's that are willing to take these heavy people (it should ALWAYS be the TI's decision) you are out the $400, or $300 or whatever you are charging. When a dz does a tandem, I bet that the profit margin is a fair bit better than $20. So if you don't charge the student and still pay the TI $10, you aren't losing money per se, just making a slimmer margin. So the dz takes a small hit while the TI gets compensated for bringing in that extra $400 in revenue. Is it REALLY necessary for the dz to charge the student in order to be able to compensate the TI? In the grand scheme of things does it make THAT much of a difference. I'm going to guess that it is WAY less than 1 in 10 that fall into this category. Sorry if I'm all over the map on this, I'm just curious about how necessary it really is.... can someone in the know please oblige in a rational manner? I know it isn't the original topic in the thread, but can we put all the argument crap aside and learn something interesting here? I don't even know how much extra the TI's get, but I'm thinking its $5 or $10 generally.. I know there are plenty people around here that love to crunch numbers and probably has before and knows generally what the specifics are.. especially a DZO that has either decided for or against charging the "tax". Don't worry. If you know because you do charge it, I'm not going to go all nutty and call you a racist or anything... -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I'm sure it was fun to watch.. Probably why the mods didn't lock it a long time ago. My birthday is tomorrow. It was 12 yrs ago tomorrow that myself and 12 of my friends first got up, drove to Dundas, ON. to a small skydive centre on a farm out in the middle of nowhere called Swoop. There I met a guy named Gary. Gary was to become my tandem instructor. We went through all the waivers and go to the weigh in. They only had to weigh one guy. My friend Dave was a pretty big guy. After weighing him (and before it) you could see a little apprehension in the eyes of the staff. I don't remember the exact details about what they did with Dave, but it was basically explained that his weight was an issue and that the decision as to whether or not to jump would have to based on his fitness level. He was made to demonstrate that he had the ability to jump off a picnic table and do a PLF (in hindsight I don't really see how that ability made much sense), but perhaps it was to test his agility. He also made to lift his legs up into a chair type position and hold them there for a period of time. It was decided that while he was pretty heavy it would still be ok for him to jump. We go outside and go through the motions of the all the training involved with doing a tandem. They actually put a harness on each of us and got into a mockup behind us and got us to do some practice exits. I'm not sure if this was common practice or if it was just to kill some time because it was pretty windy and perhaps they were waiting for it to calm down. Finally it came to jump time and because it was my birthday and my buddy Paolo's birthday as well it was decided that we were going to be the first to go. We got all harnessed up, met the pilot and did that very slow motion walk to the plane for the video guy. It was at that point (taxi, plane ride, lame jokes, spotting problems aside) that I strapped Gary to my back like a parachute and I jumped out of the plane. It was one of the most invigorating moments of my life. A true highlight. I will never forget it. Never. You see what I did there? I (ME) strapped Gary to my back and jumped out of the airplane. I say that because that is how I remember it. That is how Gary made me feel. Not like he was strapping me to his chest, like I was the one strapping him to my back. I was the man that day, not Gary. He was simply along for the ride and to take care of the details so I didn't have to worry about it. Tandem instructors that can do this.. that can realize that to them it is just another ordinary day, but to their passenger it is truly a highlight of their life. That can step outside their ego and let someone else be the man (or women) and let them bask in the moment. These tandem instructors I have MAD respect for. They are the true heroes of the sport. The rest are doing the sport a disservice IMO. Dave was pretty embarrassed that out of this group of 12 people that he was singled out of his group of friends as being a possible safety issue, but he got over it. Even if he was charged extra he probably would have gotten over it, but it probably wouldn't have helped. But that isn't what I remember the most of the day. What I remember the best was that I was not only treated as an equal I was treated better. This was my day to shine, and they were only there to facilitate. What a day! I know what kind of business that I like to give my money to. Now maybe this great treatment was because there was a lot of time to kill because it was windy, or because we were such a large group, or because it was a small club. But I will hold Swoop on a pedestal as a dropzone to do a first jump even though it didn't end up being my home dropzone. I did go back and do one more there before taking off out west for a while and eventually coming back to the sport 3 yrs later. It was that day 12 yrs ago that I feel I became entitled to an opinion on how tandem students are treated. Because I WAS one. Now when I step back and mull over this thread and what has happened I realize this: I had an opinion about the weight tax. I felt it was wrong, immoral and greedy and I fully expected an argument. A good one. You can't get away with ANYTHING on this website without a real good serious debate. And I was prepared for one. What I got was an argument on how I was not titled to an opinion on the matter. It took a little while to figure out, but I finally realized the irony, Ron, is that while I began an argument on equality (whether my opinion was right or wrong), you argued that I am not equally entitled to an opinion. I feel that your take on why I was not entitled to an opinion was ludicrous so I fell into the trap of trying to argue that. Do you realize the irony in this? Ron and Diablo... Trying to tell me that my argument is wrong by telling me that they I have no right to an opinion (for whatever reason) has therefore led me to the conclusion that: Wow, can something be double ironic? Davelepka while you may have been tempted to do the same as Ron and Diablo (You are clearly in disagreement with me) you didn't. You waited until you had something productive to say about the issue I brought forth. Mad props for that. Speaks volumes of your character. So here it is... My offer of peace. The olive branch so to speak. You can have it. Go ahead take it. I know you want to. Just... can't... resist.... So...... shiny. Ahhhh, there it is. You clicked on it didn't you? Well now you have it. Use it well. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

davelepka, Great point! Far more productive than "You have zero experience, so your opinion means shit" or "I have x number of tandem, so what I know is correct and you don't know shit" or "go get a rating and do a thousand tandems and then you have the right to discuss how pricing structures work" Definitely has got me thinking. I'm not 100% sure I feel that the customers should be charged more because of the shape or condition of their body. I still feel that if weight or body condition is a safety issue than it should be a no go. If not, you should be treated as an equal. Regardless of what you call it i still do not think it is right to charge person A more than person B. I'm not the one who coined to term "fat tax" I was just the first person to use it in this thread. I will from now on refer to it as a weight tax or body shape tax. I'm glad someone has brought an argument to the table without their ego. Where were you with this 110 posts ago? I knew there were nice guys out there that disagree with me. I respect that. The whole bs part of this thread as far as I'm concerned was more about ego than the actual point I was trying to make. I have always been open to logical rational discussion. I just refused to get bullied. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

And the "noise to signal" ratio just went through the roof. Why? Because I don't pack anymore? Because I agreed to a "deal" being offered even though I seem to have know a little more about what is going on with that deal? Or because I wouldn't be prepared to give away half my salary for a year (summer) just to be able to call out Ron's alleged moral behavior? Yeah.. Ok bud.. What did that guy so a page or two back? Boom! You win Ron, I will absolutely not admit that it is impossible to understand what it takes to do something without having done it. Like I said before, I know that it is pretty hard to cook up a full on turkey dinner because I have present for the whole damn thing a bunch of times. And its not hard to see that it isn't easy. I know it isn't easy to work on an oil rig. I know it isn't easy to be a TI and it is not the same to do a big one. You are trying to argue a point I made that I never made. I feel like you just caught a sniff of what you thought was a non TI saying that it isn't easy to do tandems and that offended you and you feel that it was necessary to drop the "I've done it and you haven't hammer" You show me where I said that doing tandems is easy, or that doing tandems with heavy people isn't a whole lot harder than light people and I will show you where I went wrong. I never said that. I never disputed that at all. I think once I said that TI's should suck it up and do their job. If they get paid the tax that's fine. If they don't and are bitching about doing heavy people they should STFU and do the job they signed up for! My issue is with charging the customer the fee not the TI's getting one. I think I might have said something along the lines of "If an employee is valuable to your business, you should pay them incentive or bonus or more" or something. If being able to take the heavy people means you can make the dz a buck when others can't by all means you should get an incentive. But the customer is buying a tandem skydive, just like the next guy. NOT a jump with Ron. my definition of a skygod: Someone who crams their shit down your throat by simply stating "I have more jumps than you, so therefore you know shit and I know everything" But really does not. And comes off like a complete f'ing asshole while doing it. You my friend are a skygod. Only problem I know of in skydiving is that there are WAY too many people like you in it. Edited to add: I would gladly match your donation to charity from your fat tax, but that would mean you are still charging it. And that would defeat the whole purpose. I challenge you to get your entire dz and the TI's to make the donation. If you can do that and show me the tax receipt. I will match your portion of it. And that is straight up. I would match the entire thing, but I don't have a whole lot of money to begin with and I can't commit to that because I really have no idea what I would be getting in to. As a matter of fact you should go ahead and tell the large people that the extra you are charging them is going to the childhood obesity foundation. Wonder how well that would go over? Thanks to all those that have sent me PM's of support and I understand why you didn't really want to get involved in this gong show. This time I am letting it go because I am just really getting bored of it. I said my piece, you said yours. Let the people decide. Peace out. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson