CrazyL

So in short :c hecking the spot is definately a good idea and counting to ten slowly is also a good idea and the 45 degree deal should be discarded entirely. That's the good that i've gathered from this post.

Got some good footage of rear riser helicopters. not on the internet though. what do ya need it for. just go do it yourself up high. if clouds are in the background it looks even better.

Agreed. A dog would'nt scratch the newbies eyes out as easy. hehehe. Counting to 10 usually works, so does the 45 degree flawed concept. Counting a jumper could do w/o visually watching the group ahead of them and it would more than likely work. About the visual, just what should a jumper be looking for on the visual part of seperation.

well said

So giving the 45 degree thing to a jumper who doesn’t quite get separation yet makes sense? Why not tell them to count, and train them to do that while on student status? Or count fleas on the cat – whatever creates separation eh? How many incidents have occurred over the years that were directly attributable to exit separation? Perhaps this may be a key inquiry to this whole debate. How many deaths has it caused? I don't know... Answer my questions. Hurry I gotta go. How do you achieve separation with a jumper on the A/C. Better yet , what do you tell the jumpers exiting behind you? anything? Verbatum please, as if I was newbie jumping out after you. In my experience, most people can estimate 10 seconds more accurately than they can estimate 45 degrees. I fail to see what the issue is. Picture this: your at altitude for some reason the exit order switched and you got newbie exiting after you. You can tell that they are scared shitless and have that gut feeling that they are going to exit on too close to you, not giving enough seperation. What are you going to tell/teach them at that moment? Gonna give them a full on 30 minute lesson? Nope cause you only got a few seconds prior to green light. Gonna be like Bill Von (by the way Bill, thanks for your excellent answer, that's easy and quick to relay). Gonna tell them how the 45 degree thing does'nt make since? Or are you gonna supply them with a flea bitten cat and say " count fleas". ( The last one would be fricken hysterical).

Maestro? Oh...thank you. That being said and me being the maestro that I am I think that question should be left to YOU. Well maybe not you specifically CrazyL but YOU the jumper with a billion jumps. Let's face it, what do I know? I only have 300 jumps and ya'll are not going to listen to me anyway. Without a doubt at the dropzone and even here on dz.com high jumps rule........ I guarantee you if the high jump skydivers set the trend the others are sure to follow. Training the new jumpers is easy. The real question is how do you train the experienced jumpers? I'm going to lie about my jump #'s then and put them at 100, so maybe I can get some answers as if i were at 100 jumps like several on lookers here at dz.com. would that be ok? Beyond that, i'd like to think that you are learning from these conversations and about htis thread, how important it is to have adequate seperation between groups. Us high jump # people want you to have a good time and don't kill us in the process. That's part of why I post. Have fun.

I'm with you. One of the things i'd like to get out of this thread is a consensus from jumpers of various levels about a pack cycle that a jumper as an individual would be comfy with and why, if they had the choice. Why would some use 120 days? why not 2 yrs? 5 yrs? Why not just have the reserve assembled once and packed once till the thing is used in flight. What do the jumpers think?

So giving the 45 degree thing to a jumper who doesn’t quite get separation yet makes sense? Why not tell them to count, and train them to do that while on student status? Or count fleas on the cat – whatever creates separation eh? How many incidents have occurred over the years that were directly attributable to exit separation? Perhaps this may be a key inquiry to this whole debate. How many deaths has it caused? I don't know... Answer my questions. Hurry I gotta go. How do you achieve separation with a jumper on the A/C. Better yet , what do you tell the jumpers exiting behind you? anything? Verbatum please, as if I was newbie jumping out after you.

Tough it up and hear me out) First off, Riggers are too damn wordy. Seriously, did you ever notice how the riggers ramble on these threads? If you can't get your point out in less than a 500-page thesis, you probably don't understand your own damn point. Guys - I swear riggers get their ticket and just LOVE to hear themselves talk. IMHO - Rigging is a serious deal and I'm not a big fan of the fast weeklong courses. However, I agree with Riggerlee that they really arn't that common as a lot of people think. I know of some local Insta-Rigger courses, but even they expect a lot to be done BEFORE the course starts. Also, I hardly know ANY riggers who started with it all. First they get their tickets and do basic AIR work - then after x-amount of repacks they get a bar-tac machine, then a few months later a straight stitch. It's a process - going from A to B to C. Isn't this what you guys want? I guess I'm just not seeing the problem here. I just think those "insta-riggers" are too far and few between. As far as the errors is concerned - Yes, I've seen my fair share of silly things when I open a packjob and I only have about 100 repacks. I've also seen a lot of Riggers open a packjob - fuck something up and blame the rigger before them. Just be careful people - that's about it. Only riggers? Have you checked out any other threads? there's alot of rambling going on here on dz.com.

Does this issue make you want to have rigs repacked more often than 120 days or longer than 120 days? Just think, a rigger is human and can make mistakes which you could be jumping. Of course you would rather not have to jump a riggers mistake, but if you were, would you rather jump it for 120 days or 180 days? the answer is: doesn't matter. More or less repacks does not affect error rate of riggers. if you got a bad reserve repacked, there is the same amount of chance that it would be repacked incorrectly the next time. I think it does matter. The shorter repack cycle makes it more likely the error is found before you have to use your reserve. I kinda like that idea. The shorter repack cycle means that there are more opportunities to make a mistake because the rig has to get packed more times every year. That argument works both ways and it is pretty stupid. I always use the same rigger because it is a person that I trust to not make the type of mistake that would kill me. The good argument is that, the more times the reserve is repacked is the more wear put on the reserve. The H/C wear is affected only by how much and where you jump. So how often would you 'like' for your reserve to be inspected and packed by your rigger if you had a choice? How long would you go for till you got scared and had it serviced? As well the argument on how long or short the pack cycle could be is still at large. If your reserve would last longer if it werent handled then why not just have it assembled and packed and not ever get it packed again till after you actually use the reserve in flight?

A guy at the DZ today told me that he's heard the S&TA at another (turbine) DZ telling beginners to use this "rule" just last week! Last March during safety day our S&TA explained in detail the 45 degree rule and how it works! When questioned about it he said "it just works, it always has before so why not now. Plus, any other way is too hard to figure out." I also hear very "high jump" skydivers instructing less experienced jumpers to use the 45 degree rule on a regular basis. How does a guy like me (low jump numbers) tell these people they don't have a clue? How do you tell a jumper how to give you seperation on exit in terms that they will actually understand and do as you intend for them to do? Not saying the 45 degree 'rule' is right. How do you do it Maestro?

Unfortunately so. Events do happen with rigging that could be called mistakes, a not so good or not so well trained rigger could be vulnerable to making the same mistake over and over again. I guess so could a good rigger,less likely. With the dawn of the 180 day pack cycle the newbie riggers I think would get even less practice unless they absolutely chose too. Parachutes rigged 4x a year vs 2x a year, that's half as much currency and practice. Are the young riggers going to be able to learn from the 'old legendary pioneering rigger types' probably not. Will a newbie rigger be able to be a rigger in about 2 weeks, yep.

I do , and try to look over the shoulder , straight above me, some dives I do barrel rolls in the track to see the airspace above me too.

Hi. In my albeit limited experience, on no wind days we haven't had a problem as a sensible mutual pattern is figured out beforehand. Before you board for every load (which one of the instructors is almost always onboard) you get a quick update like if the uppers have changed etc and they normally also see the likes of me out the door too to make sure we aren't too eager to get out and ruin the seperation. So you essentially have a 'loadmaster' who assist in the exit separation and relaying conditions and landing pattern?

Do you think it would cause more deaths if the pack cycle was 2 years or more? No if - There was a cycle component; say 500 jumps. This is becoming increasingly easy with all the electronics - a Cypres-2 with current software means the rig tracks cycles for you. In the absence of cycle-counts you can fall back to 12 or 6 months in the same way a turbine is unairworthy without its counts. - There was an accessable database with potentially problematic gear which could be checked at manifest time. Given ubiquitous internet connectivity this is practical. Without the infrastructure for this sort of on-condition maintenance you could fall back to a 12 or 6 month cycle. - There was an indication of adverse environmental exposure. We already have gadgets which change colors when exposed to moisture, heat, etc. You could also split main-container + harness inspection from reserve AI&R, requiring the reserve repack less frequently (more with natural materials like rubber stows). Sounds like some right 'No if's' More and more it seems that jumpers are taking care of their main canopies by getting relines and canopy repairs as needed. Still several, I mean most jumpers don't either know or maybe it's 'don't care' about the condition of the kill line in the kill line collapsible pilotchute. I like the idea of inspecting gear at a certain number of uses, more than time. For gear that has natural products like stowbands the replacement of those parts should be under a time constraint. For my customers I expect their gear to maintain a certain 'look'. If they can see reserve p/c fabric,or p/c spring on side flap, loose or frayed loop, bent pin, etc. I want to see the gear regardless of what the pack cycle is. I just inspected and packed a rig that could go 2 years, been rigging it for 2 years and no changes. My only real concern is how 'brick' like the reserve canopy would be.

No wind days seem to be the most messed up in the landing area. With communication prior to loading the A/C determining the landing direction, manifest on the loudspeaker announcing the landing direction, arrow directing the landing direction, none of these things seem to always work right. Jumpers it seems just mess the landing direction on no wind days. It's not just a phenomenon here in the U.S. then, or is it? Jumpers landing in the same area going opposite directions makes me cringe. Seen collisions that totally could've been avoided.

Are you saying instructors were giving rigging instruction on how to install soft links? If the instructors were not riggers then why would'nt they consult a rigger? Good going reading the instructions. Reading instructions and understanding the instructions, materials, and construction is what riggers do, it's part of the duties.

did'nt you use an RDS system on that canopy before? If so, how'd that work out? Did it still open soft?

I think this is the main problem. Your tandems should be establishing and flying their pattern. Where does this opinion of their's end? Can they land opposite to the traffic pattern into an oncoming crowd of upjumpers? If they're spiraling down into the pattern then it's not just a TM vs fun jumper issue, they could be screwing each other also. Growing up a sailor, I always put issues of right-of-way things into terms of the nautical rules of the road; the oldest and most internationally consistent form of right-of-way and is what aeronautical right-of-way is based upon. The least maneuverable vessel gets the right of way but it is their responsibility to maintain course and speed. Your TM's should quit with their antics and establish their pattern well before the time that their actions push someone away from their chosen landing spot. there ya go....well said. Agreed.

Bill's checklist is like an asset. I had'nt read it in a while but just did once again. Big help in flying a parachute. Even with loads of experience under my belt Bill's checklist helps me to stay on top of my game. Had'nt done a flat turn in a while, going to this weekend. Thanks Bill.

That happened to me, the one year deal. On a couple of occasions at a loft I worked at, the loft attempted to contact the rig owners numerous ways for a long time, then sold the gear.

Just to be clear, since I didn't clarify this point before, my instructor specifically said "you may have to wrap the lines a few times to get a stall". He has 5000+ jumps and is a well-respected active poster here. And yes, I understood that such actions could make the canopy unflyable and require the use of EPs. Hence doing this above 2000 feet. To me that's good training, I'd imagine you guys discussed the obvious part about if you take wraps on the line you'll need to get the line off your hands prior to releasing the main. Sounds like you have a well respected instructor, most instructors are well respected.

1.: always 2.: because I have to 3.: my instructors 4.: from my first jump. 2. you don't have too. But your answer ' because you have to' is a heckuva a reason. 3. I did'nt get trained by instructors on how/when to use a hooknife. Can you help me out here and relay what your instructors taught you about the use of a hooknife? In the UK every certified Skydiver has to carry a hooknife. BPA ops manual. The UK has a bit more set rules and as far as I know, make jumpers abide by them. More so than the U.S. Do you guys have issues with landing pattern on no wind days?

Do you think it would cause more deaths if the pack cycle was 2 years or more?

Is this what is know as thread hijacking? Oops, sorry, I think this thread has gotten a bit of course and is thread jacked. Good topic and discussion about hooknife though. Plaease let us continue on this thread. Homie will cut to the chase soon. right homie?