danwayland

I think you’re spot on. No doubt sky to tunnel is where the challenges lie.
If you reach for that grip in the sky and speed up a little, your partner might match your fall rate without even knowing he/she did it. Same thing in the tunnel and you’re wondering why you’re dropping out.

Tunnel is like doing it without a rig, which is a little different, and also right next to a spaceball.

But the physics are identical. Just gravity, air friction, and Iaasac Newton’s equal opposite force.

Keithbar if you get in tunnel please report back as to how well you performed compared to your sky flying and, if it’s different, what you think the difference was.

This topic perplexes me.

If you actually get the chance to tunnel sitfly with a tunnel rig please report back.
I do think the bottom of container looks like a big lift / air friction producing surface.

My hypothesis is that tunnel sitflying will still be different and harder than in freefall, though.

And according to this rigorous dropzone.com thread based science - the physics are exactly the same, it just feels / seems harder because you have very little room to drift around or change fall rates compared to freefall.

Point is just the little tickle in my brain when I go from not understanding to understanding.

So, you think the interaction between, say, my right leg and the wind in the tunnel is different than the interaction between my right leg and the air in freefall?

I think we're getting to the bottom of this.

I am now starting to believe that perhaps it really is all relative and whether the flyer is moving or the air is moving, it's identical.

I still think there might be something more that's different besides the rig and the required precision of the bodyflight...
perhaps something about inertia of a body who is stationary relative to Earth vs. a body rapidly falling towards Earth, but maybe not.

Maybe truly good (spaceball, dock last on a bigway) freefall only freefliers could (in theory) fly in the tunnel on day one, and it's just that truly good freefliers are exceedingly rare.

Thanks,

Dan

Thanks Ron

What you say makes a lot of sense, and I definitely think you’re right in that the rig makes a big difference.
I did not think the rig was the only physical difference, but maybe I’m wrong.

Do you think a really really good (1000s of freefly jumps, spaceballs, and big ways - actually good - not all over the sky with an inaccurate self image) freeflier who has never been in the tunnel could put on a tunnel rig and freefly in the tunnel ok on the 1st try?

Just in theory - a hypothetical question to help us noodle through if there is any difference beyond:

- the rig

and

- the fact that most people have an inaccurate self appraisal. They are all over the sky and just don’t realize it.

Maybe that’s all there is to it?

Maybe there is no other delta and my theoretical amazingly good freeflier who has never been in the tunnel would actually be able to fly headup / headdown just fine in the tunnel with a tunnel rig?

Quote

One possible test would be: If you put an expert skydiver, who has never flown in a tunnel into one of the huge new tunnels (Dubai, et al.) and have her fly at the center, where there is unlikely to be much interference from the walls or too many fliers in a small space: would she still struggle as much as in a small or regular sized tunnel?

Yes! Science!

Good freefliers (spaceballs, VFS, bigways) who have never been in a tunnel are getting harder and harder to find out there, but they probably still exist.

I would love it if we could find one, put them in a 14’-17’ tunnel with a fake rig (and a spotter for safety cause this ain’t gonna work I don’t think) and then watch em not be able to fly headup at all (I don’t think there would be any safe way to try headdown)

And thus scientifically determine that something other than “they’re all over the place in freefall” and/or “it’s the rig” is at play.

Then, for your theory, do the same thing at the 32’ tunnel at Clymb when it opens.
(Though, one problem is that more space also means more room to get up a head of steam before you find the glass. While I can accept a few casualties in the name of science most tunnel owners cannot)

benlangfeld

Maybe I’m missing something, but you appear to be making a huge assumption when you say that a good freefly skydiver with a fake rig on can’t fly in the tunnel well. You’re basing this whole discussion on that supposed fact without ever demonstrating it. Maybe it’s true, but the way you’re wording it sounds very strange.

You’re right. I do assume that. I assume it strongly enough that I feel it would be unsafe to test it any further.

I got some PMs from some tunnel gods indicating that this kind of thing has, on rare occasions, happened (SUPER good skydiver / freeflier tries to freefly in tunnel without going through enough tunnel progression) And they eat it pretty bad.

I am convinced that something is physically different, but I could be wrong

Thank you for your thoughts!
This reply is definitely closest to the mark with regards to what I was hoping to discuss.
There is definitely a little burble right by the net.

I think you’re saying, if we go back in time and grab 1999 Flyboyz Eli who has never been in a tunnel yet can fly very well in freefall with space balls, big ways, pretty much anything in freefall,

And then we pull him forward in time to a modern tunnel, then maybe the reason he wouldn’t be able to “just do it” (freefly in the tunnel, even by himself with a fake rig on) is because the air he deflects does weird stuff against the walls and/or the air in the tunnel is just less consistent all around than it is in freefall?

Thanks for the reply.
I completely agree.
I want to be clear I’m not asking for any practical reasons.
I’m not looking to question or change how things are done.

I’m after a deeper understanding of why / what the difference is

Eg. inertia of falling vs staying still in moving air? Air friction caused by the body moving vs the air moving is different?

I just use the fake rig thought experiment to get past, “maybe it’s the rig,” in hopes of allowing the discussion to pursue the other deltas I’m after.

If it was just the rig, then a fake rig would work (but it doesn’t)

If it was the thickness of the air, then good jumpers would be able to fly in a Denver tunnel without much training (but they can’t)

If it was that everybody is really all over the sky and just doesn’t know it (which is the cause the majority of the time), then there would be no big ways or space balls without tunnel training, but people could fly stable and controlled right up to those things before the tunnel existed.

Something else is different.

My Bonehead Rev2 is $$$money$$$

Just to reply to his post, I took a pretty good header into the tunnel wall with it. I'm happy to report that other than I'm embarrassed and had to make the OK sign at everybody, it's like nothing happened. Felt like next to nothing to my noodle.

Facemask seems more substantial / sturdier than some other helmets I've had / worn / seen as well.

Though I don't know that my face has taken a direct shot.

Downsides?
I don't know any impact ratings or even who hands those out.
And the track on the top of the Rev2 makes it bad for putting your head on the net, but in reality I'd probably not wear my nicest full face for that anyways because it can scratch the helmet up pretty good.
If I'm putting my head on the net, I'll grab my crappy old helmet or wear one of the tunnel's.

hope that helps,

Thanks for the response.

Let me be abundantly clear:
I don’t want to do this.
(I am well on my way / tunnel trained already)
I don’t want anyone else to do this.

I want to ***understand*** because I’m starting to suspect that nobody does.

Physics.

My first theory was, it must be the rig, but I strongly suspect that if you put a fake rig on a good freeflier who has never been in the tunnel they would still eat it in the tunnel.

So it’s not the rig.
So what is it?

For example, friction from air pulled over the body is somehow different than friction from a large stationary air mass gravity is pulling one through?

It’s fascinating to me that something is different, and I don’t know what.

And the easy response, which is true most of the time, that the jumper is actually all over the sky and doesn’t know it - people were docking last on freefly big ways and jumping w space balls before good tunnels existed.

Those people were not all over the sky.

So - if those people couldn’t hop right in a tunnel, even if wearing a fake rig, thus proving it’s not the rig, then what is it?

Science, physics.
Asking to understand.

Hey All - I have a purely academic question.
I'm just curious - for science.

We all know that sky skills do not translate to tunnel skills, even for really good skydivers, but why don't they?

Concrete example:
Imagine Jumper X has 3000 freefly skydives and can freefly headup and headdown really well in the sky.

Despite that fact, if Jumper X has never flown in a tunnel, then Jumper X will not be able to fly headup or headdown in a tunnel AT ALL - to the extent that it would be irresponsibly dangerous to even let Jumper X try it (without going through the whole tunnel progression, which might go a little faster than w/ somebody off the street, but still)

I have seen tunnel rigs (fake rigs).

If Jumper X wore a tunnel rig, would that cause the translation from sky skills to tunnel skills to be significantly better?
(hypothetically - I do not want anybody to try this - this would be both dangerous and probably super annoying to the tunnel people who would simply prevent anyone from trying this - this is an academic question to help noodle through the difference between freefall wind and tunnel wind)

If a tunnel rig would/does not significantly improve translation from sky to tunnel, then what the what is going on? What is the difference?

I would think that gravity and the friction between your body and the air would be exactly the same regardless of whether gravity is pulling you down through the air or if gravity is holding you down while fans blow air over you.

I know for most people the main difference is that there is no difference - that they are actually all over the sky in freefall and just don't know it whereas the tunnel makes it obvious.
But in my example above, even if Jumper X can dock last on a 10 way headup or headdown formation which requires fall rate matching and holding still, Jumper X would still be an absolute disaster in the tunnel. Why is that?

Thanks for indulging my curiosity!

Ding ding ding! I think this is the answer.
Faster wind equals greater chance of problem or injury.
Slower wind means you can't stay up unless you fly something a little floatier than the normal relaxed skydiver position, so they have em fly backwards a bit with their arms and forwards a bit with their legs - do that evenly and you've got lift.
IFly needs a policy that makes them able to serve genpop (anybody and everybody) with the minimum probability of problem or injury.

I appreciate your posts on this forum NWPoul.
You're consistently thoughtful, helpful, and good at explaining how something feels.

Thanks.

I am thrilled with how headdown 2 ways are going in the Loudoun tunnel.
Transitions with eye contact. Static points. Decent static flying.

So, in the interest of continuing to progress, I gave it a go on a 4 way (everybody knew this was my first and was cool with me trying)

I didn't stay up. Gave it two attempts and was dropping to the net both times even though the tunnel was set a hair faster than my usual successful 2 way speed.

I've heard that more people makes it feel slower, but does four people make it significantly harder to stay up than a two way?
Or am I just freaking out?

In either case, how would I go about finding strong lift headdown?
What muscles are you flexing for strong headdown lift?
Where do you feel air for strong headdown lift?

Are there any tricks similar to the headup ones? That is to say, similar to how the janky leg, knee flying, or getting the back of your helmet into the wind headup all are ways to get an extra lift boost headup - any tricks like that for headdown?

Each body position has a range of speeds one can fly it.
I bet that you will have plenty of overlap if you keep at it.
That is to say, you will find a nice range of speeds within which you can go up and down on your belly and your back.

If I were you, just to make it easy on myself to get a shoe horn into that range and start expanding it, I might try a speed that's a little faster than is comfortable on my belly, but I can still bellyfly down just fine.

I might then try some backflying at that speed. Can I go straight up and straight down? Can I go up and towards my feet? Can I go up and towards my head?

And then some belly flying at that same speed. Can I go straight up and down? Can I go down and towards my feet? Can I go down and towards my head.

Man, I wish there were a way for one person to say something and the other person to then do it (I wish this for my own learning).
Like when backflying, dig your heels in and feel the air on your calves. Or arch your back a little and feel it cupping the air.
But there's just nothing anybody can say that makes it possible for somebody else to do it without getting in there and messing it up a bunch of times until it happens.
Which is what I do.

But you will VERY likely be able to expand how slow you can fly your back and how fast you can fly your belly such that there's significant overlap.

You all were very helpful with tips on how I could get a hand out in front of myself headup. I basically got it down pat.

Now, what about both hands?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/89zaisatokeok3g/AAAM7IAx5OUsAOkqTO6CjWsta?dl=0

E.g. Linked mindwarp (I dunno why it wouldn't attach)

Sit to sit at lower speeds, that kneefly technique pictured seems to be the way to go for me.
That linked both hands to both feet is me, but the windspeed in that picture is set too slow for all of my headdowner friends and some of my headup friends.

But turn the wind up into the 90s a bit where my friends fly headdown, and that kneefly makes me unable to stay down.

I have a really hard time getting both hands forward in a more traditional sit.

How do you use two hands headup in headdown fast air?

Is it easier to learn how to kneefly fast like the guy in the mindwarp picture?

Or is it easier to learn to use both hands while staying in more of a traditional sit somehow?

Either way - what does the reach both hands forward in high winds headup feel like?

Many thanks!

I like the idea of flying static with my hands on my head

I'm trying to figure out how to learn to have my hands free when head up like these people in the 2nd half of this video (the head up part)

I'm seeing a little docking in front (as opposed to turning sideways) while sit flying normal, head up daffy docks in front, and knee flying docks in front all in this video:
https://youtu.be/9neJYvGW16g

I'm flying ok head up. But I'd like to be able to reach in front of me to take a grip and then fly that position better than I can now.

Thanks. I do think that applying backwards motion with the legs plus forwards motion with the shoulderblades would make a ton of sense.

I can move backwards in my sit just fine, but maybe I'm only using my torso for that.

Maybe I don't know how to push backwards with my legs.

Anybody have any ideas of things to try that help you learn how to reach forward square in front of you when head up in a tunnel?

When I reach in front of me, I start dropping.

I'm consistently told chin back, and that makes sense. I'm sure that's the correct answer for getting the extra lift, but when I try that, I go forward. There must be more to it or at least a different way to think about it.

Many thanks,

If it was a slow tunnel with balloon suits like Pigeon Forge or Vegas (or at least how they used to be... I dunno if they upgraded) then you would have a much more freefall like experience in a modern tunnel like an iFly.

If you were in a modern fast tunnel where people can freefly all willy nilly. Then all I can say is that it seems to me that, typically, people find the tunnel to be a humbleness generator. I certainly do.

I feel it's not EXACTLY the same as freefall, but it's pretty darn close especially for belly flying where the rig is completely in the burble.

Skills definitely transfer from tunnel to freefall (my personal experience).

Skills transfer from freefall to tunnel, too. Just a lot less than you and I might wish.

I think it's likely very a simple explanation like "the tunnel is a merciless bitch" than it is about the difference between falling through air vs tunnel air or anything like that.

As far as what happened goes - nobody can say. But I bet if you did ten minutes here, ten minutes there you would be elated at the improvement as it all come back and you'd forget whatever felt different in no time.

Don't be depressed. The people you see flying well in the tunnel? They probably think they should be flying better than they are doing, too. Humility is mandatory. Good luck.

Oh, I'll definitely do that, too (turn the wind up and work on my head up daffy).

thanks!

Thanks for this. I think you're right.

I think I may be happiest working on my kneeflying as a way to add some head up capabilities to my bag of dynamic level 3 belly speed tricks.

Too bad cause I think crazy legs sit daffies look a little cooler, and really I just want to look cool :)