Ron

Moved from Incidents: 207-339-1520. Let us know what you find out. LOL Perfect response. What, you don't think the USPA should be checking on an instructor they licensed at a DZ they approved via the GM system? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do you think that a GMDZ that has had the FAA cite the DZ's lack of MX or training as the factor in a crash should be a GMDZ? The fact is the USPA is doing almost nothing. They make the DZO fill out a "form" and according to Ed Scott, they then throw the form away after they made sure the FORM was filled out correctly. Get this for irony.... To be a TI, I have to include my medical (That the FAA does not care exists at ALL, it is pure bowing to Vector). But the GM application does not require a copy of my medical OR a copy of my pilots license to show that I am a commercial pilot with at least a 2nd class medical..... So to be responsible for a single tandem PAX, I have to show proof of a medical, but to fly an entire load of tandems.... USPA does not care! All that is required is that a the DZO write down a name of a chief pilot and sign the pledge * Comply with the USPA Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs), which include compliance with the Federal Aviation Regulations relevant to skydiving operations, including aircraft operations. * Ensure that all pilots employed or utilized for the purpose of parachute operations hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and a second- class medical certificate. * Ensure that all aircraft utilized for the purpose of parachute operations comply with commercial maintenance requirements described in U.S. Federal Aviation Regulations Part 91.409(a) through (f) as applicable. Hell, why not just have the DZO "attest" to the TI's having a medical? It also asks this question: "Is there adequate initial and recurrent training for jump pilots?" But the only check that any of that is true.... Is did they fill out the FORM correctly.... This from Ed Scott. And from one of the National Directors: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3541729#3541729 That same leader The USPA uses the GM program to demand individual membership. The GM program does nothing for the individual membership.... We all know DZ's that are group members that do not follow the pledge, we know of DZ's that have been cited by the FAA... And they are STILL Group Members. The GM program IS a joke and it should be eliminated. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Congrats, you now agree the GM program is meaningless.... Took long enough! Then maybe the USPA (and you) should not act like a GMDZ is better than a non-GM DZ? A GM takes a pledge to follow the FAR's so it is not a gigantic assumption that a DZ that has been proven not to follow the FAR's should not be a GMDZ. It is my time to waste. I don't consider it a waste to help people open their eyes to the scam that is being played on them. Fact is the vast majority of jumpers know exactly nothing about FAR's or can tell if an aircraft is legal. They rely on the DZO to be honest and the lie that a GM follows the FAR's. Simply put, the USPA GM program does not give you any guaranty of a safe DZ. You want proof? A DZ that had a crash due to bad MX was still a GM. That same DZ had the DZO censured by the USPA but was still a GM. That DZ has now had a FATAL crash, again due to bad MX.... And as it stands currently is STILL a GM DZ. I feel for all those that lost... But to pretend the GM program is anything more than a scam to force individual membership and provide fake legitimacy to the DZ is simply shown to not be true. The USPA does not even remove the GM of a DZ that has been shown to not follow the FAR's. These are facts. You can try to play me all you want, but you can't refute them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't you get it, the plane ride is PART of the event. And the pledge says you will follow FAR's! If they are not following FAR's they should not be a GM. Here is the GM application. You will notice it starts off talking about the advertising and then later mentions the pledge (which we all know means nothing if a DZ that had a crash due to MX is still a GM). https://uspa.org/Portals/0/files/Form_GMInitialApp.pdf Point #1 of the pledge: "Comply with the USPA Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs), which include compliance with the Federal Aviation Regulations relevant to skydiving operations, including aircraft operations." COMPLIANCE WITH FAR's!!!!! Point #3: "Ensure that all aircraft utilized for the purpose of parachute operations comply with commercial maintenance requirements described in U.S. Federal Aviation Regulations Part 91.409(a) through (f) as applicable." COMPLY WITH FAR MX REQUIREMENTS!!!! So if they are not doing that, they are not abiding by the "pledge" yet somehow still are a GM???? But lets continue with the "pledge": But lest look at the GM program manual!!!! https://uspa.org/Portals/0/files/Man_GM.pdf Look at 1-3 "benefits" the first two are: "Use of the authorized phrase, as indicated on the USPA Group Membership Certificate" "Free advertising" So there is little doubt that it really is about marketing and not actual safety. Yet, here we have DZ's breaking at least TWO of the seven "pledges" and still are GM DZ's...... It is about money, not safety. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And yet I just gave an example of a GM DZ that had an issue with illegal MX in the past resulting in a crash and recent action against the DZO and now a fatality at that DZ in part due to MX and they are still a GM. These are all facts. GM DZ having a crash due to illegal MX - Still a GM Action taken against the DZO - Still a GM An additional crash, with fatalities, reported to be bad MX - Still a GM DZ. Now maybe the USPA has not acted yet.... But they didn’t take action from the last crash due to bad MX, so I have little faith they will take action now... The check cleared. Maybe the USPA will finally act.... So maybe a preventable fatality is the line that removes a DZ from the program? That would be nice to know.... ‘Dangerous activities are allowed until someone dies.’ At that point it isn’t more than just the check clearing and an empty promise. Anyone that thinks the DZ being a USPA GM means anything is fooling themselves. The GM program is there to force individual membership and to serve as an advertisement tool. Funny how Chuck has made that’s EXACT claim on this forum before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A great deal more than two..... I would not rank St. Pats in GA as "Major." Summer Fest Tiki Halloween Boogie , Skydive AZ Turkey Bookie, ZHills Independence Boogie Spaceland Dallas. Loads of major boogies in the US. Very unlikely we will see another boogie as big as the old WFFC. Back in the day, not every DZ had a turbine. Most DZ's have Cessna 182's and now even smallish DZs have a 208 or a 750XL. People used to travel not just for the party, but for the larger aircraft, now turbines are almost everywhere (OK not everywhere, but lot's of places). Put it this way.... It used to be that you could only jump a jet at the WFFC, it ended up going away, but Perris owns one. You want to jump a balloon? Burner is at Skydive AZ at least half the year. Want to jump a heli? Well the only game in town used to be the WFFC, but just in FLORIDA last year they had a Huey at Sebastian and Clewiston. Heck, Spaceland Dallas had one at the 4th of July Boogie. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thank you. How could the membership get a list of who voted for and against this? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are using the logical fallacy of 'False Dichotomy'. Even with the USPA you claim there are dangerous practices, but then use those dangerous practices to defend the USPA? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He is the one that’s said he added ‘teeth’. I am asking him to define it. As I suspected, the USPA is not going to do much about BSR violations. Worse case is kick out the GM and not let them back. I don’t see how the USPA could do much more honestly. But, I don’t call that ‘teeth’ so I asked what he meant. I can’t help but wonder what would happen if say Lodi wanted to become a GM. I suspect that as long as he signed the pledge and the check cleared he would become a GM.... Even with the history.... Admittedly, this is supposition. I do find it interesting to read Chuck before being on the BOD talk about the GM program versus today. Since he claims the difference is ‘teeth’, I think it perfectly fair to ask what ‘teeth’ means to him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don’t see ‘teeth’ there which is why I asked. So 1, 4, & 5... I don’t see any ‘teeth’ just you saying you might kick them out, might put conditions on them being able to rejoin, and might write them up.... You and I have clearly differing definitions of ‘teeth’. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Both Hook and I didn't ask for specific examples, we asked for the "teeth" that is now in the GM program that you claim. Maybe just quote the list of punishment actions that can be taken against GM DZ's. Surely just showing the membership what actions COULD be taken against a GMDZ is not in violation of 1-6. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So you just argued my point. In the example of you giving "free" coaching, it was NOT free. There was a cost. In your example, YOU were the USPA. You provided coaching at no cost to the participants, but that was only because YOU covered that cost. Or you could argue that the WFFC was the USPA and through paid participants (members) they were able to provide organizing. Again, not "free", someone paid a cost. And as you claimed train != ‘fund’. The charter also does not say to fund a museum. Like always... You have a nice day, but we are getting nowhere. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Me either... And I have looked. I am eagerly waiting for someone to answer what "teeth" have been put into the GM program. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I didn’t know you traveled for free and got free hotel and registration. You may not have charged, but there was a cost and you paid it. Well in examples like BC he is the manager of a DZ so it is his job to help and guide... And he gets paid for it. And the others if it was at an event that you PAID to be at, then they were getting compensation as well... P3 for example, you paid to be there and they were compensated to be there. So YOU may not have paid, but that does not mean someone else didn’t pick up the tab. And an individual giving free advice is not the same as a mandate from an organization to provide training. I am actually surprised you don’t see that.... Actually, I am sure you do see it and just refuse to admit it. You have a nice day.... This has devolved into all noise and no longer worth my time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, while you are technically correct.... It does not say "fund"...Try to give an example of where providing training in skydiving does not require spending any money. Tunnel? Money Jumps? Money Gear? Money Get them a book on mental training? Buy the book or spend funds on an employee finding one for free, or copying it, etc. So it does not say "fund"... It does say train and you will be hard pressed to help train several teams without spending any money. BTW, It also does not say 'fund a museum.' "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then I am surprised I had to quote it to you. Notice it says TRAIN? You can try to explain it away, but it says TRAIN in plain English.... See attached. You have a nice day. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 PCA:USPA.pdf

USPA provides no funding to US Teams. The teams are funded by investment income from the US Parachute Team Trust Fund, which receives nothing from USPA. Please look at the charter for the PCA, later turned USPA. "To select and train the United States Parachute Team for World Competition" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I see you failed to answer my question... I guess the USA teams now have FULL sponsorship... You know since you think you can afford to give away 125K dollars of USPA funds to other pet projects... It is good to know that the mission of the PCA - USPA has finally been met! And people might like to know that the "International" museum has, I think, only TWO people who are not from/in the United States on the governance board.... Does not seem so "International" to me..... But one thing I will give you credit for... You willing to spend YOUR money on the same things you are willing to spend others money on! As for me not being a member... When a supposed membership organization shows interest in supporting manufacturers and the industry over the membership, I have a hard time supporting it. And if you support the DZ group membership program so much... Why is WTS not a group member? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And this was the same USPA that wanted to create a demo team to compete against its own members for demos to raise funds for the USA competition teams. Yet, now they also give away 125K dollars to some other group.... Did the US competition teams get fully funded all of a sudden? Fully aware thanks. So you assume that people opposed to the BOD giving away membership money is because they are uneducated about the project? Maybe they just don't approve of giving away funds without ASKING the membership? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Anytime members money is being given away, the votes should be recorded. I have been down this path before, I will get incomplete data that will not give me the information I wanted. I'll get a few yes, a few no, but mostly silence. So it will be nothing but a waste of my time. My USPA membership lapsed.... I'm thinking I am going to let it stay lapsed. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My license says "Master". It was listed as Master for decades. It then went to saying "Expert", now they say nothing (IIRC). But when the FAR's were written, the USPA "D" license said "Master".... If needed, I can PM you a pic of my license (If I can find it). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think it can be said even more accurately that the BOD was lobbied hard by some museum folks, and it convinced 13 of the 22 BOD members who voted "for" this. FYI, I voted "against". Can you list who voted for it, or provide a method to find this information out? I mean it is membership money, so it should be public record.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It never is enough and it will never be enough. You could make it required reading and they will just claim they have "mad skills" and they "are better", will "be safer", and have "better advisors". Then they will insult you for trying to "hold them back". It happens so often.... I don't even try anymore. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have put 100+ students through a tunnel/AFFL4 program. It is better than standard AFF IMO. I dislike the BOD maybe more than anyone. I think the USPA does whatever the hell it wants without a single care what the average member thinks.... But this is not the hill I am willing to fight on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Pacific skydiving was violated for busting clouds by the FAA and the USPA did nothing. So your claim is not supported by the facts presented. Oh, I thought we were not FORCED to do anything? You would also be wrong. I have stated my issues several times. If you decide to ignore what I wrote and instead try to make up a position I never took... There is no point in trying to discuss this with you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334