Ron

Yep, more strawmen.... There never has been a "guaranty" of safety, only the ILLUSION of the guaranty of safety to people who are uniformed. You are ignoring the point and instead trying to distract. I am done wasting my time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This poll shows otherwise. The "poll" is asking skydivers, not whuffos. And? Skydivers don't normally look at the USPA website to find a place to learn to skydive. Also, it is not limited to "new" people in the sport. I guy that has been jumping 45 years 'knows' more than a guy that has yet to get a license. But I think you knew that. Again, strawman from you. Is this the best you are going to do? If so, don't expect me to continue to play your game. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This poll shows otherwise. The "poll" is asking skydivers, not whuffos. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You a USPA member? You a DZO in the US? You work at a US DZ? You work at a US GM DZ? In your *opinion* my comment is dead wrong. But I was a USPA member for 20+ years. I have worked at US GM DZ's and US non-GM DZ's. I have talked to DZO's they claim it is just cheap advertising.... 750 bucks a year to be listed in the magazine and on the website is CHEAP advertising. They insist that people be USPA members for the third party insurance. And the GM program makes them have people join. The real "benefit" is the directing of people from the USPA website and the illusion that a USPA DZ is safer than a non-USPA DZ. Hell, just read the GM manual. The first two things listed as benefits in the GM manual 1-3 https://uspa.org/Portals/0/files/Man_GM.pdf A.Credentials 1. Use of the authorized phrase, as indicated on the USP A Group Membership Certificate Example “Group Member of the United States Parachute Association” or “Foreign Affiliate of the United States Parachute Association." 2. Authorization to use the USPA Group Member logo 3.An appropriate and attractive “Certificate of Membership.” B. Free advertising 1.A no-cost phone and website listing in issues of Parachutist magazine. 2.Free listing of DZ events in Parachutist’s Main Events department. 3. A no-cost listing in USPA’s online DZ Directory. 4. An active link from USPA’s website to the DZ’s website C. Is a benefit for the USPA. D. Is a benefit for individual members, not the DZ. E. Worthless, I have read it. Better info is at Diverdriver.com F. Maybe worth something to the DZ G. Now starting to be worth it to the DZ "Best" thing and the "right" thing are just emotional appeals without any data to back the claim up. If this is the best you are going to do..... I am done wasting my time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Non-GM DZ's don't seem to be having any more of a problem. GM DZ's have no special voting rights over just the DZO being a member. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They join because it is advertising. There is zero benefit to signing a pledge to do things. The only benefit is to claim they are approved, and to be listed by the USPA. There are plenty of sketchy DZ's that are USPA Group Members. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have answered you several times. If you don’t like that answer, that is not my fault. Simply put, the USPA could revoke group membership of DZ’s that have been found in violation of FARs... They don’t do that. Save the psycobable, you have made comments about me, not my positions ‘this is 2018, keep up’ is not a comment about my position and you know it. You have used several logical fallacies, mainly strawman and ad hominem, and if you wished to have a real discussion, you would have stopped doing that. The USPA provides an illusion that the GM program is more than just some silly pledge... And the USPA does not even act when they KNOW the DZ is violating FAR’s. But if all you are going to do is attack me, and ignore all of my points... You clearly are less interested in any type of discussion on the points and just interested in arguing. Basically bring points or this is my last time trying to engage in discussion with someone who is either unable, or unwilling. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Read the post again. I answered this one already. Hell, you quoted it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you started pretty decently, then you went petty and started to try and play the player and not the ball. Except I am asking for information, data , and facts and YOU are the one telling me to stop asking. You contradict yourself, you claim I am the one to tell everyone how it has to go... But I am asking for data and YOU are the one telling me what to do. Responding to me is a funny way of passing. But I know your type as well. You accused me of the very thing that you are doing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Love the fact a mod gets to attack me. You think I have NOT tried to fight the stupidity from inside the system? You know that is a lie since you and I BOTH tried to work on canopy control issues. Of course you know it is a lie, but took the cheep shot anyway. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You just contradicted yourself in the same post. That the USPA needs to make a statement. A high profile death and they are silent. Secondly that the requirement for an FAA medical is stupid and is bowing to manufacturers and not supporting the membership. Group member program. Yet all the DZ has to do is sign a pledge. There are SEVERAL DZ's that have had FAA action against them for not following FAR's and are still group members. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not paying an organization that you disagree with, giving up your ratings, and not jumping anymore in protest/frustration is an EMPTY gesture in your mind? Seems to me it is more honorable that being a sheep and disagreeing but still sending in your money so they can give it away and making false promises about them ensuring DZ's are safe. But hey, I never understood you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was both as well and hold a class 1. You seem to be ignoring the point. Arguing against a position I never made (read up on "strawman"). And again, you attack me... Still have not read up on Ad hominem, huh? Hey Bill... I thought attacking the person was against the rules? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK so you approve of a BOD member telling the membership to call about a fatality. I'm not. In part because of BS like this. But you know I am still allowed to voice an opinion without the USPA membership... Right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

More than just this issue. The USPA gave 150K to the museum. The USPA caved to UPT about pull altitudes. The USPA caved to UPT on 3rd class medicals. The USPA started to fund a demo team that would 100% compete against USPA members. The USPA "approves" DZ to be GM with FAR violations. Starting to see the point? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope, try reading it again... I said the USPA requires an FAA medical. Nonsense. It makes perfect sense if you realize that I think most of what the USPA does is a joke. They demand at least a class three medical but the FAA does not care about a medical for skydiving - UPT does and forced the USPA to make TI's have one. Pointing out the guy had a medical is pointing out it DIDN'T work... So why is the USPA demanding it? And what are they going to do about the situation if the medical clearly didn't stop anything. It is because: 1. This has nothing to do with guns. 2. Maybe you should read my sig line. Again, not what I said at all. Maybe what you wanted to think I typed... But not what I actually did type. It only protects the manufacturer. Maybe you should read up on when TI's were "certified" the rig maker. They didn't want to do it so they begged the USPA to take it over. But they demanded the USPA keep the medical. USPA caved and bowed to the manufactures wishes over the membership. Maybe you should read what was written and not what you wanted it to say. Yep, more trying to play me and not the topic... You try to claim about people using bad logic, you might want to read up on Ad hominem. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

YOU were the one that made this baseless claim: "bet this guy thinks "Gun free zone" signs stop shootings." Instead of trying to "play the player", you might try to play the ball. That is poor reasoning. Never said it would. In fact, I think the USPA should drop the FAA medical requirement. It makes zero sense after LSA and now Basic Med. It is just the USPA doing what UPT wants. He is on the BOD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The FAA has said it is going to take mental health seriously. https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/26969 And they do report on suicides (NTSB): https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20100218X33746&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA You will have to forgive me for wanting the USPA to do all it claims it does. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Trying to play me? I was just asking why a USPA BOD member was telling members to do the job of the USPA. Don't blame me you don't like me pointing that out. BTW, your trying to insult me has ZERO impact. Shame the USPA BOD has to insult individuals. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Huh, didn't YOU write "207-339-1520. Let us know what you find out." Trying to claim things you did, never happened? Maybe the BOD should not be telling the membership to do the USPA's job? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You clearly have ZERO idea who you are talking to... Don't you think it would be nice to know which? Don't you think the USPA should be doing more than telling the members to look into it themselves? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Back to ignoring you. You are trying to play the player and not the topic again. How dare I think the organization that licenses and "certify's" DZ's as "safe" should actually do their job!!!!! Anyone know if there is a "block function"? gowlerk has again stopped providing content and has instead fallen back to insults. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then maybe it is time to admit the requirement for a third class medical is stupid... Especially since the FAA does not care about it. You are confusing a preliminary and a final report. They could, and SHOULD, do both. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Just what info would you want them to communicate? There was an incident that very likely was a suicide. Do you think it is USPA's job to report this to you? Let's see.... Do I think the organization that licensed the instructor and that claims to "certify" certain DZ's as safe and that claims to regulate skydiving in the US so the FAA stays away to give information relevant to a fatal tandem accident that involved a USPA licensed instructor at a USPA approved DZ? Ah, yes. I'd also like to see what the USPA is going to do if it was a suicide. I mean after all they require at least a Class 3 FAA medical and depression is one of the questions asked on that medical. But as of right now, we only have YOUR speculation it was a suicide. Maybe the GOVERNING BODY should make a comment? And certainly, a BOD member of the organization should not be shirking that duty to the general membership. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

207-339-1520. Let us know what you find out. LOL Perfect response. What, you don't think the USPA should be checking on an instructor they licensed at a DZ they approved via the GM system? They are, as they always do. You would think they would want to communicate that info to all the other instructors they certified. You know, instead of a USPA BOD member telling the membership to do the work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334