NoShitThereIWas

Wow, that makes me feel so much better. The stupid ironic thing is that I approached my investment adviser Sept of last year fearing this would happen and asked him to move everything of mine out of the market, sell and put my money in money market accounts where it would have remained protected. Well, the short of it is, he talked me out of it. Long term, long term, blah, blah, blah... The DOW was in the neighborhood of 14,500 then. Yep, I'm sure glad I listened to him. I get scared thinking about if or when our market will get there again. Yesterday it closed around 10,300. And just because it has gone up 240 some odd points today so far doesn't mean it can't plummet another 500-1000 points tomorrow. Looks like long term is my ONLY option now. If the market even gets close to back up where I started I am outta here and investing in precious metals like palladium and taking my currency in Euros. So far not listening to my own gut has got me in trouble. I don't enjoy playing in volatile markets with potential for collapse. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

We will just keep that to a matter of opinion. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Please don't give Bush anymore "ingenious" ideas. I wouldn't put it past him to put your plan into effect. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

HoHoHo! I won't hold my breath! Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Then what? Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Yes, but if you're in, you'd better be in for the long haul and feel comfortable watching your investments take another huge bath and stay that way for years or even a 50% depreciation hit for a long time to come. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Yep, I said it then and I will say it now... S-T-U-P-I-D. You know, it makes me really mad that this country would throw such a big fit over Clinton getting a BJ in the oval office and wanting to keep his private life private. The Republicans were right. What a horrible thing to have happened. That guy should get impeached! Let's see Bush squeezed his way initially into the Presidency with the help of some of his friends and family which made me question if we truly even live in a democracy anymore or whether it has changed to an oligarchy? Apparently, according to the Florida polls, enough of someone voted him in... Soon, within months we are engaged in a huge war costing trillions of dollars, lives and upset families while he tries to lie to those stupid enough to believe in him that his reason for going to war on Iraq was over Hussein's weapons of mass destruction to which there were none. Duh! He must think the American people are SO STUPID BECAUSE OBVIOUISLY THE MAJORITY OF US ARE!!! But no, Clinton should be impeached! Then after blatantly lying to us, getting us to spend trillions of dollars on his daddy's war without any reasoning whatsoever except playing on the emotions of the American people after getting attacked on 9/11, we RE-ELECT him while he protects the Bin Ladens family to safety? Jiminy Christmas America, it is time to Wake Up and smell the coffee! Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

OK so what are everyone's feelings on this whole thing? We have Pres. dipshit on National TV with his presidential address stating that if The House and Congress do not come up with something (i.e. his miracle bail out package) then "God help us all" and the "American economy will crumble". I anxiously awaited to see what today would bring at open and close in the markets, hoping for something to give and a knee jerk reaction in the market to cause it to rally and surge so I can pull out and bail, and SLAMMO. I watched it drop 675 points in a matter of minutes. I knew when it opened it wasn't going to be good. Then a few days back I am watching Leno and Dr. Phil is on the show... He gets up there and starts saying that the proposed bailout package would cost every American approx. 7K. Where in the hell are we all supposed to just come up with an extra 7K when most so many are unemployed, losing their homes, barely able to make ends meet? Then there was talk that plans would be there to make sure taxpayers get paid back? WTF? Like now we need to start believing our government and trusting them with our pocketbooks. I didn't think Armageddon would get here that soon but then again, we have had Bush in there for almost 8 years... Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Dang John, I didn't actually click on the clicky to see the car until just now. That is one stylin piece o machinery!!! I can totally see you cruisin in that MG Mobile. My Mom used to have an MG back in the late 70s. Her's was white. I know she loved it but I think it had problems all the time. Hers was certainly not classic like yours though! Do you have to take it somewhere special to get it fixed? Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Fair enough Tom, thanks for your response. Another perspective and possible door opened in my book. I really can't imagine though going into a DZ like Perris for instance and asking those things. I did try once and the lady looked at me like Didn't I know where I was? And yeah, I did, but that didn't mean I actually knew the nuts and bolts of the place... You would think it would be easy to judge but I just don't take things for granted anymore. Who is the best person to ask questions to and don't you think they will be offended that we are suspecting customers of them by asking for proof? It kind of starts things off not on the best foot? Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Well, I am an 80s girl who still remembers the good ole Sting... Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

So you feel the solution is for every jumper to ask lots and lots of questions at an establishment? How far would you go out of your way to be bothered by every jumper to drag out the airplanes logbooks and show proof that your operation and pilots are decent ones? I have been to MRVS I was impressed by the "looks" of it, but if we are to become that armed with knowledge, my point is, on a busy day are you really going to have that kind of time when you are also trying to run and oversee operations? I think it would be great if the bar of knowledge was raised but how do we do it short of including airplane/pilot dynamics in a safety day discussion perhaps or... ??? Just talk to other people about it so they are more aware too? Do we just go up to manifest when we sign our waivers at a new DZ and start asking questions? And then to really arm ourselves with the necessary knowledge to know whether or not we are getting bullshitted or not it seems like to make a skydive I need to gain the education of an A&P, FAA Inspector, pilot training expert, OK. I guess that is what I have to do... It will take me a long time to get there so I guess I won't skydive until I do if that is what is necessary. In theory, I think your idea is a good one but I think it would fail in practice. The reason I don't think it would be successful is because I think the majority of skydivers may take these things for granted like I used to, they can be apathetic and ignorant. If they don't read their 20 page manual for their rig then how can we expect to see a huge change from them now becoming airplane mechanical wizards? How many people are going to get a free education on all of those things? How many people are truly qualified or have the time to teach such things? Some people might and it would be nice if information regarding aircraft and pilots was more readily available. I do agree that skydivers need to be more knowledgeable about these things but realistically I don't see it happening. I would love to see a solution like this one work and some do get weeded out by that process but I don't think it happens quickly enough and it seems like a step in by the FAA would help to raise that bar a little quicker. I don't know how the FAA works or their timelines. If they are just a slow government agency with a lot of beaurocratic BS or they are like hawks in the way the oversee things. I know there are a lot of problems right now in the airline industry and I am not sure where skydiving plays in the list of importance. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Damn I am telepathic or something. I saw this thread Morons! I was immediately like uh oh, some asshat driver. I just spent a week in California, let me tell ya. My Mom thinks that Missouri drivers are the worst because she says they tailgait profusely. I have never had that problem here in the 5 years I have lived here unless I was going too slow in the fast lane and I told her that. I get to California and I am like dang. These people move and have no use for you on the road. Talk about tailgaiters. I am just so glad I will not ever have to live in LA again. That place is filled with nightmare drivers. Sorry to hear about your car John but just remember it is a car and not a person and although now you have a pain in the ass mess to deal with, go rent something fun and let the asshat pay for it and take your car into the shop. It will be OK in no time. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Unfortunately I don't think the people who were responsible are the ones who are going to have to pay for it, it is taxpayers like you and I who are going to get stuck with the responsibility. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

That is a tough one. I actually won an auction in Rantoul in '04 for the B-17 Warbird lift ticket. Just came off of another load landing in the soybeans, raced to get there in time with a borrowed rig and was as excited as I ever have been about skydiving... I even whipped up some tears and those fuckers wouldn't even drop me off at 4K on their way out because they had somewhere "important" to go. Anyway, that is just a sidenote and I know more than anyone how cool those planes are and would have done anything to get on one. But if the pilot told me he thought it was safe "enough" to get me to 5K or he wouldn't be flying it and I trusted the pilot I might have gotten on. Now after what I know and have experienced I would have to say NO, not only NO but why would a pilot try and take a final voyage on an airplane that may just end up being his own as well? Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Instead of editing my post that I am replying to, after reading it again I caught myself saying something I don't mean. I thought I agreed with BillVon on the following matter but indeed I don't. When Billvon said that if I as a rigger, told someone that I could not replace their closing loop because I did not have the money to purchase more materials and a jumper says it is OK and he decides it is safe enough for him to jump, I don't agree that it is still OK. Not if you are going to dot your i's and cross your t's. If I continue to not replace the loop and it wears till it breaks, I am responsible as the rigger for allowing that to happen. Being that my job as a rigger is to inspect and assure the safety of a TSO device (reserve parachute/harness, etc.) in that it has been maintained and is going to work properly and then I blatantly do not follow the manufacturers directions as outlined in their manual, i.e. changing the reserve closing loop, and the direct result of my actions causes someone to die, I am criminally negligent and liable whether or not the jumper decided for him/herself that it was safe to jump. There may even be consequences for the pilot because they are responsible for making sure the gear is in date and safe as well. There is an entire gambit of circumstances and ensuing levels of importance when it comes to what needs to be fixed and what doesn't, what can wait and what is immediate. Rules are broken all the time. I am not going to say I never pencil packed for myself when one of my rigs was out of date because I ran out of time or was too lazy to repack it. But again, that all goes back to being responsible for myself and self regulating. If it got to be that the FAA wanted to come down and make sure I wasn't pencil packing I wouldn't have a problem with that. Let's say a jump plane has a window that is cracked or a little bit busted up... should it be fixed? Yeah. Do FARs require it to be fixed? I don't know but let's just say that they did require it. OK. Is it going to lead to a mass catastrophe of people getting killed? Probably not, operations I am sure could still run smoothly with a little bit of an inconvenience from noise on the way to altitude. Would it be irritating to have the FAA breathing down your neck to have the airplane fixed before it is allowed to leave the ground? Yes and that is one of the potential drawbacks to more regulation but I think the safety gains far outweigh the potential drawbacks. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Vinnie, even though I know you and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum (and I would be willing to bet money you voted for Bush) and I wouldn't vote for Bush if he was the last piece of dung on the planet, I would vote for YOU for President in a heartbeat because I think you are so damn brilliant! I miss you Vinnie!!! Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

And yes, I agree too and that is my point. But how many DZOs are telling jumpers/students/1st time tandems that there is something going on with the plane that they can't afford to fix and it may not be safe or airworthy? Or how about that their pilot is not commercially rated and has not been checked out properly on the airplane they are flying? I'd bet if there was one of those specials done (the name escapes me what I am thinking about) but the shows that are designed to reveal what is hidden from us, the public and consumers... people who go on a mission is to protect "us" from having the wool pulled over our eyes... I saw one show on red meat that was dated, redated, packaged and repackaged at many grocery stores revealing to the public that their meat that was bought was WAY beyond their packaging date and I mean way beyond... I'd be willing to bet lots of money that there are plenty of DZs out there who are doing the same things by trying to cover maintenance/pilot issues that need attention; secrets that only the DZO/pilot/mechanic know about. And, the only thing I don't agree with in your post above is that even if a DZO tells jumpers, Hey, this airplane can get us up to altitude and most likely will but there is this little problem with the elevator trim or the stabilizer so if the pilot stalls, the airplane will spin in (just an example). Now the DZO has made the jumpers aware of a potential problem. But like Stratostar mentioned, there might still be a load or two of asshats who are like, sheesh, no big deal because we have rigs on! Well, I know that kind of stuff actually does happen believe it or not. Do I think that just because those jumpers have been warned that now it is OK for them to jump out of that plane if they deem it safe? Absolutely NOT. That is up to the FAA to determine it has passed the airworthy test. Most jumpers don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to airplanes. All they know is that they want altitude and some want it so badly they are dumb enough to take stupid risks to get it. This is why I believe there needs to be more stops to more DZs by the FAA. Because we have seen too much tragedy lately with regulations not being followed. Just like in my example about breaking the law in an earlier post; just because there are plenty of criminals behind bars for committing crimes they are responsible for committing doesn't mean that they are ALL behind bars... Crime is still happening right now all over but only the ones who get caught by law enforcement are actually doing their time. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Geez, after reading your posts I was like this guy is pretty smart and seems to know a lot about what is up even though we don't agree on everything 100%. Come to find after doing a profile search it is my DPRE Tom Dolphin... Well Duh. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Well I am in agreement with you there on that one... And I am also in agreement with you on the issue related to rigging and arming yourself with knowledge (to the extent of the experienced jumper). I don't think it is necessary for a first time jumper or tandem to become familiar with the technicalities of all of the gear and such. I know when I was an early jumper and got my rig, it came to me fully assembled and I was one of the guilty ones who kept my manuals in a safe place (the closet). I did skim over them briefly but after learning more about my reserve and the problems people were having with it, my interest in rigging and maintaining my own gear became greater. My quest for knowledge got me through my riggers ticket so at least I didn't stay ignorant forever but I find there is always more to learn. I still feel ignorant when it comes to understanding engine mechanics but I am trying to arm myself with that knowledge now too. Someone asked earlier without offense (no offense taken by the way) about didn't I know or ever see the otter gone for any kind of routine inspections? Well to be frank, that otter was in the shop the last year I worked there full time more than it was out of the shop. It seemed like there was constant maintenance being done to it and that is where my experience comes in with the mechanic. Again, not caring to get into major details or finger pointing but I was less than impressed with him from the beginning and tried a number of times to get Scott to get rid of the guy and hire someone I KNEW to be competent. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Congrats Joe to you and everyone else who was there to complete the 100 Ways! I love the pictures too! They are awesome! Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Thanks Chris, your insight rocks and yes, I get it. I am with you 100% here. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Well we at Quantum Leap would have passed your inspection with flying colors. 12 "safe" years in the business, 2 accidents which were very explainable causes; one was due to pilot error (canopy collision) and one was due to what I consider equipment failure of an experimental canopy that spun a straight in approach to the ground. As far as I know, very good BBB standings, good relations with airport manager and FSDO. In fact our FSDO guy Mark loved us and visited us often. We were incredibly organized, manifest was run by an ex-military manifest b who knew exactly how to run things smoothly, efficiently and did a good job of keeping everyone happy. Our staff was over-standardized so that every instructor knew and kept records and logs of every student in their progression. There was also strong cohesion and a team comradery atmosphere between staff members inside and out of the workplace. Equipment was always stored inside a covered area, we had one of the most anal riggers and master riggers in the industry, I know because he trained me and nothing got by him... The aircraft was always hangared safely and appropriately, the pilot who was in his early 40s, started flying when he was 16 and was currently an airline FO for a major airline so he was very current. The facility was in above average condition, staff and customers were happy to the best of my knowledge without friction or confusion. Our staff was professional, knowledgeable, dressed for success and uniformity, organized and had excellent skills in AFF, Tandem and rigging. Our DZO and pilot was also a World Champion Crew Dog. Now what? And, is it the responsibility of a first time tandem student to understand what a reserve closing loop is and does and when the engines last TBO was? I think when people sign a waiver, they are assuming that they are signing their rights away for the skydive. In my opinion, negligence should count either way but really to what extent can a person get information about maintenance, logbooks, pilots? After our accident, I went to Perris to make some jumps... They thought I was a paranoid schizo in manifest. I started asking them all sorts of questions about how much time their pilots had in the left seat, their maintenance records and how well they maintained their airplanes... The more questions I asked, the more they started looking at me like I was crazy. In theory it is nice and safe to believe that we can identify all of the problems but in practice, good luck. And if that is what our sport has come to, I fear for the future of our sport as a business. Most people who skydive are willing to acknowledge the risks of leaving a perfectly good airplane but the key words there are perfectly good. I know one DZ in particular whose jump ship was grounded after being red tagged by the FAA for failure to comply. I straight up asked one of the regulars who not only is a friend of mine, but who prides himself on knowing everything about this particular DZ and he flat out denied it. Good luck getting the real skippy and thinking that you will even come close to knowing the "true" ins and outs of the operation especially when skydivers are usually super protective of their home DZs and friends there AND being that they are protective, they would rather keep the bad things hush hush. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Quote*** I agree with the basis of your statement but not the reality of it, I don't believe that many DZOs whom run less than stellar operations cut corners to make an extra buck! I think it is mostly done as an effort to stay in operation, the margin for possible profit is very small, rub this against the increasing requirements, costs of operation, and expected and requested services from customers, this creates a big problem when paying the bills! People always forget that "Increses in operation", "Increases in staff", increases in anything comes out of the same pocket the profit of the operation, if this is minimal or nonexistant, coners will be cut! QuoteI agree that these increases come out of the profit margin but then what is the alternative? If you don't have the revenue to support the business by making it a safe one, I think your solution is the best one. "Close down the bank! and the problem is solved!" When you start cutting corners to save a buck at the expense of the safety of others, it is time to close your doors and hope to start a more successful DZ on another day. That would be like me saying when someone brings their reserve parachute to me for a repack, I am a little poor this month and cannot afford to purchase Cypres loop material for your reserve closing loop. So instead, I am going to just use the same one over and over again (without telling my customer). Surely if I use this rationale on all of my customers, over time I will save money and perhaps be a more profitable rigger. But eventually, someone is going to be either in freefall or under canopy and due to wear and tear on their reserve closing loop it is going to break and they will have a premature reserve deployment. Heck, they may even be head down going 200 mph when it breaks. But oh well, it was their responsibility to know better... They should have done their homework...? Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

Buyer has to be AWARE first. Thank you John, that is my point exactly. I worked first hand for the DZ full time as a rigger, instructor, manifestor, packer, office person, etc for over 2.5 years and I did not know the things that I know now after this NTSB investigation about our airplane. How many DZOs are going to tell customers that the plane "might" have problems or that a pilot isn't even commercially rated. I am not saying that our pilot was not because he was but there are other DZs out there who were using pilots who were not commercially rated to fly jumpers. These are not exactly the things you are going to share with potential customers to bring in their business. Just what sorts of homework relating to common sense are you referring to? I taught many first jump courses and remember in each course speaking about our safety record. 12 years of business with a clean safety record with the exception of one canopy wrap and a "fluke" fatality under what I consider a terrible and experimental canopy (story for another thread). Then after 12 years and no warning to us (the general public or staff) the engine blows up, otter crashes and 7 people are dead. Doing your homework is one thing but gaining the inside scoop or knowledge is another. I don't find it non-sensable to have the expectation that a DZO is there to provide a safe environment to the best of his abilities and that includes making sure the airplane is sound for operational activities. Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."