rhys

That is an eloquent way to put it... That is their words; They could be read as; We believe these units have dodgy cutters based on 2 incidents and ignoring many saves, though we have not botherd to investigate this particular incident we assume the cutters are dodgy and are prone to locking you containers closed when they fire so we reccomend you ban them as soon as possible in the interest of safety, otherwise you will be in trouble and people will die. Nowhere did it mention that the unit had been investigated or will be, the unit could have been an individually faulty unit, damaged or a bad batch, as has happned before in other brand units, this was not mentioned. Vigils and Cypreses that had problems and failed to work correctly, these were bad batches faulty units, they were not banned. it could have been in sea water or exposed to some chemical or a vast array of possibilities. Assumtion is simply not good enough. This was a scare letter it was not balanced it was obviously pressure on the industry to knee jerk; and it did. Then we found out about the foreign object a few days later and everybody goes quiet. You read it as you will, I will read it as I will and you will find that there are many that will agree with my point of view and some that will agree with yours. The fact remains that this particular incident was 'most likely' caused by and anomaly and not a faulty cutter. Some question the truth of the ball bearings existance in the cutter and the only reason they do so is because if the ball bearing was there, then it is perfectly understandable that it failed to work and the bannings were unjustified. We will see an investigation from aviacom, you bet your bottom dollar we will. If you owned a company with millions of dollars of product out there and the ability to turn around many millions more over the coming years would you just pack up and leave in this situation? I bet not! Aviacom has a much more difficyult task of selling units now than any other company has had to face, if they play thier cards right. There will probably be the threatened lawsuit, winnong that and using the 10 million on sorting out ther customers would goo a long way. I hope everybody that is out of pocket be it for a repack, an new unit or is forcet to jumo without an aad when they would prefer to complains and writes the manufacturer of their container. Ask them what thier thoughts are now it is known there was a steel ball in there, and what they plan to do, they should CC in Aviacom and then there will be plenty of evidence that this has taken place. This will pressure the manufacturers to take a long hard think about the message they want to give their customers and may go a long way in resolving this issue. This will assist the argus end user getting the correct treatment. You like many others seem to hope that argus' are dodgy so you can be correct in your assumtions. So you ignore the conclusion and evidence from the investigation that has taken place, (my guess is) Aviacoms investigation will have the same conclusion though it will go into more detail and you will see more concise evidence. We will probably also see plastic inserts going into the cutters to avoid it happening again. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Look mate, you are twisting my words, it was not me that issued a letter to the manufacturers saying these units were unsafe. All I am saying is that the PIA need to be adequately informed when making such decisions, in this case they were not, I bet they are regretting their action now (aside from AAD and Airtec). Somebody needed to investigate the unit, when that bans were put in place it was not known what the fault of the cutter was. The acted prematurely and they have made a huge hassle for many people. The unit should have been sent immediately to the manufacturer for analysis, tht did not happen even after request, the FAA had to be involved before they were allowed to anylise the unit. And if the bans were not immediately put in place and the correct measures were taken, the bans most likely would not have happened, as the foreign object would have been discovered, now the bans are in place the manufacturers have to admit fault to revoke the ban and we all know how human beings feel about admitting fault. Now aviacom have to go one step further and resotre the communities faith in them, and that will probably come in the form of a multi million dollar law suit against the PIA. The PIA should be shitting bricks because as you and many others have mentioned, they are not an authority, though they used their influence as so. Now answer my question; Do you think it is resonable for the manufacturers to ban these units in thier equipment based on assumtion and fear? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

That is up to them to decide, they have plenty of riggers at hand. If they had waited a few more days they would have had the relevant information, but it seems they were too keen to eliminate the opposition to 2 of their memebrs! Are you suggesting that it is reasonable to ban something based on assumtion without any attempt to recognise the actual problem? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

New Zealand New Zealand is fickle, There are three different part 149 organisations that issue licenses. 1, The NZPIA, these guys are the babylon forces of darkness, haha. not really but they can be difficult to deal with and unreasonable. Most of the major DZ's are under the NZPIA as the NZPIA shareholders are comprised of the Dropzone owners that were in existance at the time. anod for the most part are not into sport jumpers, there are exceptions to that. 2, The NZSA, these guy are easy to deal with, inexpensive and promt, you can have your authority to jump immediately, and you can complete a high altitude test immediately at no cost (if need be), where the NZPIA can make you pay $170 for a high altitude test for going to 15k 3, The NZPO, these are the new guys, not too sure how they roll but have not herd any bad things. The CAA has requested that all part 149 organisations recognise each others licenses and ratings, though the NZPIA cant quite fathom that concept it seems. As a foreign jumper you can usually use your license from your own country if it is recognised, you will normally have to become a temporary member. At the NZSA this cost NZ$10, and you are away. Accident insurance is not required in New Zealand as EVERYBOY is covered for accidents whether they are a citizen or not under the socialised ACC accident insurance scheme. At my DZ you can rock up, pay $10, and be at 18k in 30 minutes, if you have not been signed off for high altitude you will have to sit a basic test with study material supplied. Some DZ's such as NZONE you will have to Pay $80 for your first jump, bugger knows why but that is how it is. In NZ at present expect a little confusion when travelling to different DZ's due to these different organisations, and you can blame the NZPIA for anti competative behaviour in the past for this being the case. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

whatever anybody says, fly your own body. Don't hook legs or grab arms... just fly. oh and Relaxxxxxx. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

This is a repost as you deleted the last reply, calling me a radiophobe is a personal attack, and that is not expected of a moderator, you may well be humoured by that but it shows you true colours. Grow up and act like a moderator if you are going to be one. These are both pretty well laid out opinions of yours, You posted the very letter from the PIA and within a few days many manufacturers and associations had banned the argus. If you can honestly tell us that you find it hard to see how anybody can blame the PIA for these bannings then you need your comrehention tested. It is pretty fucking obvious (to many) that the strongest influence on this situation has been the PIA letter.. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Well for a start they could investugate the unit that was faulty somehow and work out if it was; A, a problem with that particular unit B, A problem with the design OR C, An anomoly. It I quite obvious that this did not happen as there is nobody that can verify whether or not that steel ball was there other than Arnold Camfferman the FAA Senior Rigger that discovered it. He discovered this after the swift bannings took place. i can see how this is embarressing for those that participated bt the hard truth is that they made a decision without the relevant information. The assumed and many are out of pocket, bar airtec and AAD. Some are questioning Arnold Camfferman's judgment, but how are they so quick to forget the judgment of those that banned the use of these units before such an investigation had taken place. The banns were implemented based on hearsay, guesswork, assumtion and fear. They were not based on facts or examination and therefore they were simply knee jerk reactions... In short they should get their fucking facts straight before grounding hundreds (thousands?) of skydivers and essentially ruining a company (competition to PIA memebers). They fucked up and they fucked up good, was it purposful? I am not sure but there is a serious problem with how this was dealt with and how it is currently being dealt with . There are photos of the ball and it seems the investigator was having issues getting a good focus on all of the photos. I am sure aviacom are compling a comprehensive investigation reiterating what we already know. In the meantime (most of) the banns remain in place and the skydiving community loses. Here is the investigation again; http://tools.emailgarage.com/Pub/Asset.ashx?Id=23c77610-0dde-4a9f-98bc-64da7820cdf0&MessageId=509493423 Read and Ingest it. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

The ball bearing is an explanation, though not 100% ratified, it is an explanation as to why it did not work. That fact is something you and the PIA members seem to be ignoring. If I put brake flid all over your brake pads and you fail to stop and drive over a cliff, is that the fault of the brakes, should you brand of car be recalled? Same fucking thing! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

That could be the case and the worst case scenario, but I am more inclined to beleive it was a bandwagon and a fear of litigation. But at the end of the day the decision to make people remove argus was premature and not good enough! It was based on an unknown quantity and that is the dangerous precedent I am fearful of... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Oi, you can STFU with your personal attack buddy, I could care less about you being a greenie, calling me a radiophobe is a personal attack and you should know better, now you will prompt all sorts of other stabs as you have basically gven the green light for others to do so themselves, this will take the focus from the subject onto me which is a scenario we have been though before. You used to have my respect, as you seemd to be neutral, now if you can make personal attacks as a moderator then you are setting a precedent and lowering the function of this forum, pull your head in please. READ WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING. not just me but manufacturers, riggers, customers and many of the skydiving community. LOOK AT THE DATE OF THE PIA LETTER, AND LOOK AT THE DATES OF THE BULLITENS!!! Do you not see the backflip in those comments, who is missing the point... So thier little meeting is where the decisions of the manufacturers were made, but the PIA had no influence on grounding the argus, none whatsoever... Give me a break... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I agree whole heartedly with you there, she is hot and seems grounded. My wedding was about my wife and I, our vouws about us and the whole ceremony was about our relatyionship and our future together... That royal wedding was a church service and nothing more, what a crock of shit. I reckon she would have been quietly dreaming of a wedding such as mine, a handful of close friends, immediate family and no Jeebus! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

She looked hot, he was handsome, westmnster abbey is a great piece of architecture, but the god bothering crap stole the limelight off the beutiful bride. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Go back and look at the dates of the PIA letter to its members and the dates of the bans.. The PIA letter came first. Now considering the H/C manufacturers are intergral components of the PIA, and the bannings frpom those that are PIA members came after the PIA letter, decide for yourself if this is just a touch...ahem.. dodgy! Oh wait, you published that letter and made it a sticky yourself...Why do I bother. Probably because I give a shit and many people support me via PM and email and I am willing to talk about the elephant in the room that many will will not. How fucking stupid do you think people are? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Watching the Royal wedding makes me happy to not have to live to etiquette, it was more about (ahem) you know who than the happy couple, they do look happy and that is what matters, but geez man, my wedding was heaps better than that farcical codswollop... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Polish authorities banned the Argus due to that incident you speak of, then they revoked the ban some time later... why? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I distrus the PIA because they are not bringing any clarity to the situation, the PIA is made up of very experienced and influaential entities, if anybody knows what the rules are iot should be the PIA members... why are we all so unsure... What is the PIA's role in all this... Business or Safety? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

The PIA COULD and SHOULD bring clarity to the situation, what is the PIA's role... to increase prifits or to increase the industries potential? We have riggers saying they beleive the bulliten is not mandatory, we have container manufacturers saying that the container manufacturers do not have the authority to ban such a device (especially without complete or correct details). Publishing conflicting statements only briong ambeguity to the situation. Where is the clarification of where this precedent is set, where is the rule that allows this to happen, why did it all get banned so quickly and where are the comments from the manufacturers that were so prompt to ban the units, now it was discovered that there was a foreign object in there... Some say; "it was Aviacom that found the ball bearing, how do we know they are not lying?" Well how do we know anybody is telling the truth, I have pointed out where Airtec have been blatantly lying to all of us about an incident with one of their units... Why is aviacom the only one to be suspected. At the end of the day all of these companies are in BUSINESS to make money, this whole excersise appears to be anti competative behaviour, Airtec's comments on the situation were very shallow and obviously designed to drive the nails in Aviacoms coffin, if this type of bullshit anti competative behaviour continues then our industry is going down a very dark road where monopilisation and deciet are key factors in what is said to us. I stil belive cypres' are great units but the managment of that company are not being completely honest, they say they drive for excellence though they themselves have had problems just as much as most other products that have been introduced to the market. They have had problems that were potentially fatal that argus has not had, how can they come out and say they are so excellent when they can also lie... Shame on you Airtec, and shame on you PIA for not being clear to all of us as to who has the authority on the issue. There are conflicting stories and now we are left to decide for ourselves whgat the actual reaity of the siutuation is. there is a possibility that argus cutters are complete shit and should be grounded, there is also a possibility that they are not and this is all a storm in a teacup but nobody with any authority is being completely open an honest. The PIA are not a regulating body they are there to help each other make more money, that is all! If this was about safety then there would be more clarity and less ambiguity. I am pissed off with the situation because it is setting a precedent for the future and those that lose are us consumers... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

View the letter from the owners of the reflex TSO (i suspect you already have), you speak as if I am the only one with this standpoint and it is quite clear that there are many or a majority, yes some are industry members too, but who are the major players... who holds the aces so to speak... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

How about a knot forced into the cutter, i do beleive there was a knot forced into the cutter on that experiment, what was such a bogus experiment undertaken for, what was the purpose... I imagine we will get a comprhensive report from argus/aviacom, there will be lawyers and all sorts of other ancilary things making it take longer, if they had simply been sent the unit and investigated it from the start under supervision from the FAA then it is likley none of us would be waiting right now. instead they were immediately banned before they even got the unit to look at... Think about that for a minute, I am not going into federal politics here, but I know what you are talking about, whatever you beleive about that day, and for whatever reason;you believe in a conspiracy. You need to understand the meaning of the word if you are going to throw it around willy nilly. I suspect you actually know this but are acting upon you desire for social accptance, much as many people are when they decide not to comment on this argus banning, many of those type of people have PM'ed me agreeing with my comments (on both subjects) but are reluctant to post their comments here to avoid ridicule from individuals such as yourself. I could care less about argus, what I care about is our industry and how this new precedent has shaped the future. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I have xl 2003. even somebody else with a current verion of xl could save it and then save as an earlier viersion could they not? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Argus were banned in Poland, then they were not banned. So that banning was revoked... what whas the reason for them to remove the ban... action?, clarity?, further investigation? The fact is, there was a foreign object in there, the units had been approved for use, and were approved until this recent incident where a foreign object was found in the cutter... This incident was the catylist for the banning, and as there was a foriegn object in the cutter made of very hard steel. . Another previous time it was a dubious experiement where there was minimal to no tention on the loop... Argus have been allowed to be used since that ordeal too... There was something about this incident that tipped the scale even though it was less of a concern than previous falures. The current bullitens are bullshit and were knee jerk reactions with irreversable consequences for many people, it was a fuck up and nobody is willing to admit that. The PIA are (partially) made up of (a good proportion)the very companies that have grounded the Argus. The PIA have republished all the relevant documents that state that the units should not be used, and are in turn pushing the idea that they are not airworthy. IT IS PRETTY FUCKING OBVIOIUS WHERE EVERYBODY GETS THAT IDEA FROM, do you not think!!! It looks like they may go to court for anti competitive behaviour, and since Aviacom suggested that this was going on, some have reversed thier decision and the others have gone very quiet indeed or are making excuses. the dirtect competition are trying to drive the nail inb the coffin by claiming that thieir impecabvloe excellence has never put anyone in danger while knowingtly lying to all of us about one of those very incidents. It is a dictionary definition Clusterfuck! This is a royal fuck up and me and many thousand of people are eagerly awaiting the next outcome... Like I already if the previous incidents were grounds for a bulliten, then publish a bulliten then, not before you know the outcome of a further incident that turns out to be something completely different, and as par as the manufacturers and the PIA...many of them are the same people... 1+1=2 "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Treat a serous problem seriously, Knee jerk reactions with unfounded and incorrect assumtions is not acting seriously. It is acting irresponsibly. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Hi there, I am keen as to check out that calculator, My version of XL will not open it, what version was used to create that calculator/xl document? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Most skydiving operations would be under a part 149 (or the FAA equivelant) maintenance schedule, part 149 is for sport aviation. My DZ uses part 135 (air transport ops.) aircraft with the relevant maintenance schedule. I doubt many that own their own aircraft would do so, we do as we lease our aircraft and that is the schedule thay are on. You would have a hard time convincing an insurance company with a sport aviation maintenance schedule is an air transport provider. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

That is funny, lemming light is quite appropriate for some. Our GPS has not been picking up the satelites the last few days and we have been manually spotting and determining winds from orbiting, it has been quite cool going back to grass roots. Buying an new GPS is not so cool. any suggestions on a good unit? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix