Dd0g

I was also involved in the testing of the non-vented Troll. We used to call it the "jellyfish" on slider-down openings. Soft and mushy, not consistent. Slider-up was ok, and its flight characteristics were great. . . but that mushy opening was bad. I never jumped 'em myself, but saw enough firsthand to be spooked with the non-vented Trolls slider-down. Since the vents were added (even before valving), this jellyfish-ing has been nonexistent. The valves are helping primarily with the glide ratio, not opening. Valved or not, a vented Troll is a horse of a different color from the unvented predecessor. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

Oh, sorry - didn't mean to directly compare flight characteristics as such. Rather, trying to compare flight "feeling" based on approximate equal size. Yes, the Troll fiies different than a Fox in some ways, and like it in others. Um, I'm pretty sure you meant Troll 290 MDV. Can you clarify? While I'm pretty sure that I know when you are talking valved, when you are talking vented, and when you are talking none of the above, your post isn't very clear in that regard. It might help some beginners if we tried to keep clear which canopy variant we are discussing. Yes, I was referring to the vented and valved Troll. I've been comparing it to a vented and valved Fox (with 5th upper conrol line mod), which is more or less apples to apples. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

Can't be much worse than the infamous Aussie Pooster. . . and that was a commercially-manufactured canopy! I wonder if the fellow was taking the freefall from 180. . . that's pretty low for gear testing. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I am jumping a Troll 290 right now (w/ MDV). With all due respect, Robert is correct on the sizing decisions. The 290 Troll is similar in size, flight characteristics, and pack volume to a 285 Fox. Due to the valves, it packs a bit "bigger" than a Mojo 280, but is otherwise a similarly-sized canopy. If you are used to a 280 Mojo, then you'd be stepping down in size to go to a 265 Troll. Additionally, even with the valves, the vents will make a similarly-sized canopy fly a bit "smaller" in terms of flare stroke. I've done some pretty technical jumping on the 290 Troll during the last few weeks, and I am happy with its performance so far. In terms of pressurization, it is probably the most solid canopy I've jumped in a slider-down setting. I am still playing with the toggle settings - and possibly tweaking the upper control line configuration - to get maximum maneuverability out of the canopy for really tight landings. In terms of flare, it's comparable to a new Mojo 280 - good, powerful, and functional from even half brakes for someone of my body size (215 without clothes or gear). The valves are trick; glide ratio is exceptional. Overall workmanship is really nice, lots of little touches that show the care going into the canopy. Anyway, I don't know what's up with the "stabilizers included in measurement" stuff, either. . . but I know from firsthand experience that a 290 Troll is exactly the size I'd expect from a. . . 290 canopy. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

This is likely true in the States - someone doing only legal jumps here would be relagated to Bridge Day, TF, Moab, and some legal BLM/Forest Service jumps. That experience might not be enough to prep for Bs, though probably someone doing alot of slider-down Moab jumping would cross over well to Bs. However, in Europe there's lots of jumpers who do either all or nearly all legal jumping and have tons of experience and skills. There's just so much legal cliff jumping over there. . . it's difficult to imagine from afar. Folks doing alot of Lauterbrunnen jumping, for example, would be well-prepared for the big Bs in Malaysia. Ditto South Africa. Some of those cats are doing nearly all legal jumping, and have very deep skill sets in many areas. Then again, they get legal Bs down there quite regularly! Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I agree with you on this, but want to re-emphasize what you've said. As are safe only with proper winds. With nil winds, they are equivalent to Es with only 120 degrees of open cliff face (assuming an A with three line sets). With winds down the wire, they can be quite dangerous. And if, for some reason, someone jumps an A quadrant into a wind or with a crosswind, they can be as dangerous as any other type of object out there - regardless of landing area. Think of the line sets on an A as solid planes when thinking about object strike issues - yes, the wind blows through the line sets. . . but canopies generally do not! I've had my end cells "break the plane" of the line sets once, and it was only luck that I didn't hit a line in the process. This is a very bad habit. As can be fairly safe, but ONLY with the correct wind layout. I think that inexperienced jumpers are often taking much bigger risks on As than they think, as they are sometimes jumping very sub-optimal wind configurations. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

There are more than a few legal Bs out there - probably more so than legal As, actually. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

Aren't there numbers issued for jumping certain big overhung Es in CA? Not a "BASE" number, as such, but something. Also, many countries have their own BASE registries. Australia, South Africa, certain provinces of Canada, etc. Official or not, I'm not sure. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

In response to Richard's initial concerns about BASE being closed I can only say this. I believe that this varies alot depending on where one is in the U.S., and also internationally. Here in the Pacific NW there is a deep and long tradition of mentorship of new jumpers. I look at some of our core jumpers from this area and try to imagine how many hundreds of hours they have spend teaching new-ish folks. . . they add up quickly. Financial renumeration for this? Zero. Frankly, I don't know any experienced jumpers who won't mentor - myself included. Many of the best jumpers in the world are regularly mentoring folks. I know a very few crabby folks who think mentoring is not "cool," but every one of these people is unqualified to mentor in any case. My first student just received his BASE number. It was my honor to share my knowledge of the sport with someone new. . . as those who taught me shared their knowledge with me. This is far from unusual. Overall, I think that finding a mentor in BASE is massively easier than, say, finding a V10 boulderer to teach one how to pull hard. A few minutes online, a few emails to folks asking for advice/introductions, and a willingness to invest some time and energy in traveling to a mentor to learn firsthand - at their convenience - is all that's needed. Please don't take this as a crabby statement, but one place you'll likely not find BASE folks experienced enough to mentor is at the DZ. Current, active BASE folks in general aren't at the DZ hanging out with the skydivers and bragging about their BASE exploits. Well, ok, my mentor was doing just that when I met him but we all know what he's like If the net-based resources weren't around, then I could see how hooking up with the top tier of jumpers would be hard. However, with so many top jumpers only an email away, I just don't see the difficulty in finding world-class wisdom available for hire dirt cheap ($0). BASE mentors take huge risks and invest lots of time and energy in teaching their students. Now, having moved from student to mentor, I can see this more clearly. Expecting mentors to somehow read your mind and seek you out is just unreasonable. There's an inherent reciprocity in the mentorship relationship, much the same as in the master/apprentice roles of professional skill groups. If you want to learn how to be a competent, solid, knowledgeable BASE jumper then find someone who you respect in the sport and begin a dialogue about your potential involvement. If an anti-sociial dog like me can get mentored by the best, then anyone can. Peace, D-d0g ps: CT is an example of what happens when someone gets into BASE with no mentorship. It's been offered to him by many folks, but he spurns it and we all have seen the results. Not pretty. +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I'm in a foul mood today, so apologies in advance if I seem ill-tempered. We nearly lost a S in the PNW due to an idiot skydiver buying a BASE rig, driving to a site named by someone (likely a Seattle jumper spewing about their kewl exploits at the DZ over beers. . . but could also have been an online post), juming, nearly killing himself, making the nightly news on all the channels, making every BASE jumper in the PNW look like complete idiots by association, etc. Perhaps fortunately, the skydiver in question was not smart enough to find the correct S and jumped a sub-100 foot one instead. So the "real" S wasn't burned properly, though the heat on it (and elsewhere) certainly turned up after this little exploit. So there's a current, verified, tangible example. Q.E.D. As to the original poster on this thread, I echo 700's comments. . . lemme guess. . . you are a skydiver with 0 BASE jumps who has never opened an object in your life, and likely never will. Personaly, I'd not put anything past testosterone-poisoned, yahoo skydivers when it comes to doing stupid things relating to BASE. Some skydivers are convinced that their heroism at the DZ is an automatic ticket to BASE fame and fortune. Their misunderstanding of our sport can cost those of us who actually are jumpers dearly. Therefore, we all pretty much support policies designed to protect naive skydivers from themselves. . . and protect us from them, as well. The DZ is a great place to go with a big ego, not much knowledge, and desire to impress others. BASE is not. Peace, D-d0g BASE 715 . . . over 20 new objects opened, and counting. . . +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

These sound like pretty interesting trips. I've been wanting to get down to Mexico for some jumping for a couple of years, just never seem to find the time to get organized, etc. Hope your injured client heals well. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

Active? Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I typed up a long, insightful, brilliant response to this today. Just before posting, my laptop decided to take a siesta. I lost the post, and I've lost the last 18 hours teaching that laptop a lesson it'll never forget! If, by some miracle, I can reconstruct the thoughts and motivation behind the post, I'll do it all over again. Suffice it to say that I disagree with Tom on one relatively substantial point. Gotta run right now - I have a laptop that still needs more punishment to understand it's proper place in pack heirarchy. Grrrr. . . . Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I have a bum shoulder, ok I have two bum shoulders but my left is much worse - most of the rotator cuff assembly is torn entirely off the bone. I was told two years ago "don't do anything physically demanding, schedule surgery at once, take it easy in the meantime, and get ready for 6+ months of rehab." Of course, I ignored that. I've dislocated that shoulder twice during deployment, both slider-down. That is not fun; both delays were in the 3-3.5 range. After those incidents, I learned to basically cross my arms after tossing the PC to hold my shoulder in during opening shock. Not very stylish, but it works. BASE deployments slider-down in the 3 - 4.5 range (particularly above 4) can be very, very punishing. I've had partial blackout at the 4 second range, and that's jumping old Mojos. Take 4+ with a new-ish, vented canopy and the damage goes up exponentially. I'll still do it sometimes, but the body load from those sorts of delays is truly punishing. Yesterday I took just shy of 4 and cleverly forgot that I had a nearly-new, vented Troll 290 on my back. My neck is quite sore today, along with shoulders and (mysteriously) abdominals. I think I know those delays well enough that I tense my body and prep for the pounding. Staying loose sounds good in theory, but for me I need to fight that shock or I'd end up doubled over in a ball and not very functional for dealing with potential off-headings. The worst pounding I've ever taken was a 4.3 second delay where I got very head-down. Pack job came out of the container and hit my feet on the way to line stretch - not optimal body position, to say the least. I opened with a 120 right and half a line twist, along with blacked-out, tunnel vsion. I kicked off the cliff, got setup for landing, and somehow got down safely. I hurt for weeks afterwards, and was scared of that object ever since - I still am! I don't think many folks are into taking 3+ second slider-down delays consistently. There really is damage as a result, not just in the neck but in the lower back. The visuals are fun on some objects, but I'm much more picky about when I'll go deep now than I was in my "young and stupid" days. Now, I'm old and stupid! I think it is possible to pack so that slider-up deployments aren't horribly punishing, consistently. However, I know of no safe tricks to really soften 3+ slider-down. For those, we just grin and take the pain. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

Spence and I spent two days straight doing Tards from the backyard B Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I am far from the only jumper who has suggested strongly that the Ace/Blackjack canopies have earned a reputation for bad slider-up openings. I believe these canopies - for whatever reason - consistently produce off-heading openings slider-up. Further, I believe there is ample hard data after Petronas this year to back up this "hunch" that I've had for the better part of 9 months. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I also don't want to sit on my hands. I've posted a somewhat-vociferous statement on the subject at the [ url "http://www.basejump.org]ABA website,[/url] in the forum section. I a far from an authority on BASE gear, so take my opinions with a good bit of salt. They are just that, opinions. That said, I'd not jump these canopies slider-up with a hard object behind me. Period. I'll do lots of stupid things, but that's even outside of my own personal "stupid envelope." Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

Oh, I wasn't putitng forth indirect control as a substitute for direct slider control, not at all. I believe that direct and indirect slider control can be complimentary. Rather, I was suggesting that indirect slider control (a bite of all the lines) coluld be a substitute for some sort of tailgate-style mechanism slider-up. Of course, by controlling all the lines rather than just the center tail, the indirect control is hypothetically not as good at encouraging the nose to open prior to the tail and thus to help prevent line-overs. However, back to direct and indirect control and heading performance. Yes, it is true that at KL I never used direct control on over 30 slider-up jumps (well, I think I used it once when DW "loaned" me his Troll ). Since I wasn't taking longer than 6, I didn't feel the need to take direct control. {since I didn't take 7.5 from Menara KL I didn't have that problem myself JJ!} Direct control scares me. More broadly, sliders scare the piss out of me. They are designed (as DW says) to prevent canopies from opening. That is scary. Indirect control, I have a hard time seeing a full-on failure with it. However, at least in my mind's eye, I can see direct control causing a catastrophic opening failure with the slider somehow tangling with the canopy fabric at our around the direct control attachment point. Yes, I'll use direct control on 8+ second slider-up jumps. However, below that I've just not felt the need for it - at least when jumping Mojos, and given the way I pack for those jumps. I think the openings might look "hard," but I'd compare then to about a 2.8 second slider-down delay. I can handle that without feeling punished, even 30 jumps in 8 days. Heck, I did 7 of those indirect control jumps in Lauterbrunnen last year in 10 hours, three of them coming out of front loops and four of the delays being longer than 7 seconds. So perhaps I'm just too stoooopid to feel the pain, but indirect control is plenty for me up to 8 seconds or so. I even did 10+ of La Mousse with only indirect control and that wasn't really anywhere near the "bang" from even a 3.5 second slider-down delay. I don't like snively openings as I firmly believe snivels slider-up make off-headings much more likely - the canopy up there at line stretch, not expanded but flapping in the breeze. Bad! I'd rather a bit harder opening (within reason), and a clean opening than a nice, soft snivel and an off-heading and line twists. The latter is a potential killer for many of the jumps we do nowadays. So this is my "250 jump wonder" plea for folks to think about the impact of direct control on opening performance. As some partial vindication of my position, consider this: I did about 20 jumps from Petronas with only indrect control this year. I did (by most folks' assessment) the most consistently sloppy packjobs of anyone at the event. Not sloppy in the sense of reckless, but rather in the sense of not taking alot of time to "tidy" then; mostly in the 10 minute range, some faster. I finished in the upper 40% of the total jumpers in the opening performance category nonetheless. Given my obvious lack of skill, and my less than tidy packing, the one variable that I had on my side that I don't believe other jumpers were doing was that I was using only indirect control. I had no off-headings more than 45 degrees in all of my jumps from Petronas. Anyway, something to think about. I could be totally wrong on this, but until we get to 10+ second delays I believe that direct control is a potential variable that increases probability of off-headings with little justifiable increase in safety in other areas. I like hard openings; they are much better than no opening at all. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I suspect that the Vancouver locals who saw their object burned in broad daylight by out-of-town jumpers too unconcerned to take basic security precautions durning their jump probably didn't think it was quite so "funny." Just thought that was worth pointing out. . . Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

In more recent times, I also believe that we benefit from BASE gear manufacturers that are both active in our sport and that truly care about the folks who use their gear. From BR and CR through Morpheus and Vertigo (in the States), each manufacturer is headed up by real, honest-to-goodness jumpers with heaps of knowledge and plenty of desire to make gear better for the sake of their many jumping friends. Were it not for these hands-on, caring manufacturers, we'd be left with the temptation to simply sit back and "let someone else take the risks of being first." Instead, we have manufacturers that actively seek out experienced jumper feedback and who actively engage with the jumping community in debating new ideas in gear configuration. Finally, we have a minimum of classical "marketing" in BASE. We hear about gear from other jumpers, good or bad. We try the gear ourselves, and then buy it - or not. There's nobody in the world who makes a dime from being a "sponsored jumper" from the manufacturers, and therefore there's not a lick of economically-motivated "spin" about BASE gear from independent jumpers. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

How about simply using indirect control of the slider? Is there a reason why controlling only the tailgate lines would be better slider up than simply controlling ALL the lines until line stretch is reached and the slider comes down? Call me silly, but I worry much more about slider up tension knots than I do slider-up lineovers. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

I asked him, and he says that he is more interested in sampling Swiss cuisine than he is in trying out the exit points. Lazy mutt! Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

bah..sir you underestimate yourself...that was wonderful..bravo You should know that he made the whole thing up! Well, some of it might come dangerously close to the truth in certain areas. . . not that I had anything to do with any of that craziness. Of course. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

Thanks for the clarification, 311. I know of the incident as legend and lore; it is good to get details from someone with firsthand knowledge. I date myself by doing so, but I remember well the "bolting wars" of the '80s in the climbing community. Those issues erupted into widespread chopping jihads and more than a few fistfights. Remember Kauk and Bachar going at it in the Camp 4 parkinglot? Remember when Kurt Smith was a staunch traditionalist known for chopping in the Valley? In comparison to that craziness, BASE folks have been pretty clean about their self-regulation. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

BASE folks are often startlingly direct in our communications. Sometimes, being direct is best. Ours is not a politically correct community in most regards; lots of us are antisocial boobs who don't give a flying fluck what others think of us just so long as folks don't piss in our beds. Also, I think it takes a bit of BASE culture knowledge to read the original thread properly. To wit, the infamous tarring and feathering incident of JV in Atlanta. This is a part of our culture; the poster referencing this is thereby putting tongue (mostly) in cheek regarding threats of violence. Again, it's all about the reference that I think you didn't really get. I have, at times, posted nastygrams warning others about burning local objects. Would I actually beat down someone for being an ass and burning our objects? No, not really. Does it help to make the point that we're serious about object etiquette? Yeah, I think it does - again, within the context of the larger BASE community. Unlike skydivers, BASE folks self-manage. We do a pretty good job of it, and no we don't end up in fisticuffs all that often. Skydivers have official authority figures to set rules and enforce them. We hate authority figures, but we also need to play nice together to maintain our objects and hence our sport. If you think that original post is "barbaric" then you really haven't hung around many BASE folks yet Wait until you see how we actually behave in person - now that's barbaric! Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

It should be noted that Tom is a fair bit "nicer" (in the sense of being open-minded, non-emotional, and balanced) in all of his reviews than some other folks - this writer included - have been known to be. Given that Tom has the experience jumping multiple rigs to back up his opinions (always offered as such), it seems fair to remember that if all of one's reviews were to be exclusively positive on all levels, they wouldn't be much use would they? Sort of like Wall Street analysts in the late '90s. . . never a "sell" recommendation. I don't know squat about Boobproof's rigs, so I can't even offer an informed opinion. However, my completely uninformed opinion is that we shouldn't be BASE jumping with bombs. Ever. Peace, D-d0g +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.