JWest

Ah, so you're evaluating other people's attitudes. Cool. And you're also letting us all know that our perception of your attitude is probably wrong. So, you evaluate the attitudes of the rest of us and you're right. The rest of us judge your attitude and we're wrong. It sounds like you're in the 0.1% in attitude judging, in addition to skydiving. Btw, 0.1% == mad skillz. How can any of us argue with you? Attitude, not attitudes, not individuals. Pay attention to the words I use. I'm not evaluating anyones attitude. I was looking at the responses when I posted something that went against the current attitude. (People under 200 jumps shouldn't jump a camera/people aren't capable of 'passive filming') There is only one mindset in this thread you need to by observing much more carefully, and you haven't even come close. It matters not what we ask you or what you ask us. What matters is when you close your mouth and ask yourself why every single skydiver in this thread with thousands of jumps is agreeing on something, and you answer that question with the fact that maybe their experience contains a level of wisdom that all your Google searches and logic games cannot encompass. Or, maybe they're all just crazy internet dicks who don't understand sound logic. Your choice. The reason they all agree is because in general they are right. The reasons why they agree my be differ, hopefully each developed there own opinion from observations/experiences. I wasn't arguing against that in general. I was just seeing if they would admit it is possible that someone could do what I was saying even though it goes against their normal rhetoric. -------------- Wendy, I was more trying to see how people would react to a topic they were already spun up about. ---- Mistercwood - I actively remove context from my posts. Other people can't remove context from my post and I cannot do the same to theirs. That is the difference. If you can, that would be dumb, dumb, DUMB. What other sports have you done this in? You mentioned kayaking at one point didn't you? If you actively forget about the GoPro on a jump, you forget about the snag hazard. That goes for your lines, your jump-buddies handles etc. Hitting it on the door and having your attention away from your exit. If you forget it's there, you are forgetting about the actual risk posed by the physical presence of the object and not taking precautions against that. Your argument has been that a person could theoretically turn on and forget. You are absolutely 100% correct. My argument is that forgetting about your camera on a jump is - in my noob opinion - more dangerous than awareness. Thank you for recognizing that is correct. You are absolutely correct - also in my noob opinion- ignoring the snag hazard on their head would be a dumb thing to do skydiving. No it does not. When kayaking I do actively film sometimes, when I'm in an eddy after a section of rapids. That way I can get some footage of my upstream friends. When I am going through the rapids I passively film. During the other activities -snow sports mostly- the camera doest really pose a physical risk. During those activities I pretty much only passively film if we want to do active filming we don't use gopros, we will use the DSLR's or handycams usually on a tri/mono pod. Does that answer your question?

That's is me agreeing with you. You don't do context well. "During the skydive they think "hey this will be a cool shot." Under canopy they look around to give a cool panorama. They look at their altimeter to "show the camera" what altitude they are at. When they are in the pattern and they see something interesting they point their head at it. It's happened to me, and it has happened to a very large number of other people. Usually they get away with it. Sometimes they don't." I agree those things can/have/will happen. ------------------------ Mcordell- You can fit 5 jumpers in a 182 but it is just pretty cramped and takes a little longer to get to altitude. That is the max load, we normally do 4 jumper loads. There are 6 seat belts. ---------------- fcajump - I picked up on that a long while ago. That is why I research and ask questions to the experienced guys at my DZ before I try anything new. Something that I think people still haven't picked up on since my long post: When this thread became useless awhile ago I intentionally and thoughtfully argued a point that could not be incorrect do to semantics and technicalities. I knew this point would go against the grain of the general mentality in this thread. I continued to make that point and observed that few people considered the wording of what I was saying. Instead they responded based off of there opinions on inexperienced jumpers. There was no utility to it, it was simply a way for me to observe the mindset in this thread. Specifically if people were just adopting the current attitude, or if they were using critical thinking to understand it for themselves. Have you considered that since I was intentionally commenting to provoke an expected response that just maybe my attitude was misrepresented? I can assure you my skydiving attitude is much different than the one represented in this thread. The gig is up, but it was an interesting and entertaining ride.

I don't need your permission, this is an open forum. If you want to take it to PMs you have that option. I now see your earlier reply, I'm not sure I trust it as anything but post revelation ass covering, but at least you agree it is unsafe. Since you seem to need it spelled out, I'd say he's mocking your credibility gap in yet another area where you're waxing lyrical in a safety & training forum. Fair enough. A person would be unbelievably ignorant if they didn't recognize that spiraling into traffic would be unsafe. Just this year there has been multiple fatalities due to canopy collisions. I don't know what you think my revelation might have been. I knew long before I started this thread that canopy traffic, AAD fires, and being spun up were some of the risks while under canopy. If a less experienced jumper than myself asked what some risks under canopy were I think it would be completely appropriate for me to inform them of the ones I know about. I pack at my DZ and a couple weekends ago I was showing someone how to pack who had 300 something jumps but had been using a packer. Because I am inexperienced (low jump number) does that mean that it was inappropriate for me to pass on the information I know to another person? I think it was appropriate. Those are just two examples of how an inexperienced (low jump number) person can give advice and it IMHO be appropriate. If I didn't make it clear in my really long post where I explained everything, I was not arguing about skydiving against people who have more skydiving and skydiving videography experience/ knowledge than me. The only thing I have been doing for a while now is arguing that "It is possible for a person to "click and forget" while using a pov camera." I did not say a skydiver, I simply said a person. Yes we are on a skydiving form, and yes I knew people would make that assumption, and yes I was purposefully misleading in my word choice for those exact reasons. I was fully aware of what I was doing. I knew it was being overlooked by the majority of commenters. Some people caught on and acknowledged it including you. I don't know shit about actually jumping a camera aside from the basics like it being a snag hazard, and that filming things is less important that staying focused on the jump. Unless of course you are dedicated video. I learned that form the links I provided earlier, people at my dz, and reading posts on this form. I do know that I am capable of 'clicking and forgetting' Or 'passive filming' (I think that's a better term, both mean the same thing) because I have been doing it for years in other sports. That does not mean that I can/cannot do the same thing in skydiving. I won't know until I do it. It is a possibility? Yes. Is it likely? No, according to people who actually know what that are talking about directly related to skydiving. I am ok with being considered naive because of the things I said while doing the above. I am not ok with being called unsafe and I will not tolerate baseless claims that I am.

Dorbie- I am discussing a specific topic with ds8221. But if you want in on it be my guest. I know I am informed about it because I have done my research. ""720" spiraling down to 1k ready to start your downwind might be considered unsafe because it risks a low altitude canopy collision with others as you turn into trafficked airspace that you visually cannot clear." I completely agree. That is why as I explained previously that I only do it when I am the only one landing in that particular area and I have located the other 4 canopies landing in the other area. Having that information do you still consider spiraling down to be unsafe for the reasons you stated? ---------------------------------------------------- DS8221- You responded to the information I initially gave to everyone. You said I was unsafe, I provided you with the rest of the pertinent information. I asked the question whether or not you still see it as unsafe knowing all the information. You refuse to answer. If you still have a reason to believe that it is unsafe I would expect you to tell me. I am not qualified to give advice strictly about skydiving videography. That is true and I agree with it.

Context, nice try though. You know, earlier in the day I was about to admonish Bill for taking some of that out of context, but you seem to be able to take care of yourself rather well, so I guess I don't need to do that now. Thanks. Also BillVon, don't forget you said this. How do you keep a level head when dealing with all the wild opinions? "Mainly by realizing that the same people who are calling the moderators names online are generally good people when you meet them in person." While I am directly addressing you as a person and not an account I will add that I've read many of the articles you wrote. They contain a lot of good information.

It's the landing area for anyone with less than a C-license. What it's called really doesn't matter. You should care, you said I was unsafe, you should care about people that are unsafe. I gave you the details and asked you -an experienced jumper- a question. I am inexperienced but I am not uninformed. So I ask you again,what about my riser turn are unsafe? Or are you so stuck in discrediting me you are incapable of answering that question? I love the way you cite the work of a guy who has told you that you are an incident waiting to happen. His personal beliefs about me do not affect the helpfulness/content of his incident thread. Reading that thread and in particular the vast number of distraction incidents in it does not mean squat unless it affects your decision making for the better. You show no indication of that. On the contrary it seems that it has imbued you with a delusional sense of knowledge. That is remarkable since an easily discernible dominant theme in DSE's incidents list is newbies with many of the views you have espoused here getting bitten. This is so glaringly discordant that I'm beginning to suspect that your deficit of self-perception and introspection might be clinical. You think you can throw internet posts at this problem when in fact your primary defense is to make good decisions on the ground before you skydive. Your word salad transmitting your rationalizations at others who know better won't affect anything. You are wrong on your analysis of me. I've offered to answer question so people have actual information so base there opinion of me on. No one has taken the opportunity. You may have missed the who post where I explained how I was purposefully being combative to observe people reactions. Now that I explained it I can no longer do it. So I say it again. Instead of basin you judgment of me on intentionally misrepresenting comments (by me) why don't you ask me some questions so you have actual information.

JWest - It is NOT SAFE to be doing a 720 from 2k+ ish ft to enter "your landing pattern" at 900ft. Doesn't sound much like a landing pattern to me. Please stop doing this. A 720 in the landing pattern will not be "fun" at all IF and WHEN you collide with another jumper. Your attitude scares me JWest and I know there are MANY others. This is DEADLY serious business and not a debate class. I'm tired of losing friends and don't really care what your "reasoned" answer is on this topic or anything else relating to skydiving. You should NOT be giving advise to ANYONE. Stop Turning I was trying to keep my post short. I will explain. C-182 max load five people. Two landing areas. I only do this when I am the only person landing in the "student" landing area and I have already counted the 4 other canopies that are landing in the 'experienced' landing area. If I can't find all 4 I would not do this. The landing areas are separated by a significant distance. If I spiral down I line it up so I get spit out right into my down wind leg. I would never do this if there was someone else landing in that area with me or I was at a different drop zone. That would be blatantly unsafe and irresponsible. I covered a two out scenario, and possible collisions. Besides getting spun up (PD Specter, probably won't happen) I can't think of any other issues with it. I have explained myself, if you still think that it is unsafe please inform me what I missed. If you have any questions ask. Try not to jump to a conclusion, I don't do anything without researching it first. I love the way you cite the work of a guy who has told you that you are an incident waiting to happen. His personal beliefs about me do not affect the helpfulness/content of his incident thread. My replies to you are in bold. If the only purpose of this thread That was not the original purpose, I was curious about the reasons behind the mentality towards low time jumpers with camera, Only about the last 1/4 was about the rest of your sentence. is to argue that there exists at least one person in the world who may be able to forget the camera after they turn it on, I don't think anyone would seriously disagree with that. Exactly, that is why I kept saying it over and over. I wanted to see if people would acknowledge that. Most did not. What they disagree with is that: (a) the general rule shouldn't change for that one person Agreed; (b) that person is qualified to self-identifyAgreed; or (c) you are likely that person. Agreed Now, you may say that you never made any of those claims --- I haven't followed this thread carefully enough to say otherwise. I tried to choose my words carefully but there is a good chance I slipped up. I like numbers not letters But the reaction you got I think was a result of two things: (1) the great majority of people who made the claims you're making (certainly everyone I can remember), made them either to: (a) advocate for lowering the C-license rule Recomendation, I don't think it should be lowered. It's a solid goal for some people to shoot for. It also encompasses more than just chucking yourself out of a plane. I don't like seeing jumpers attacked over it. Chances are that their DZ is aware of it and has given them permission/talked about it. (Might be different on big DZ but that is not how it is at mine); or (b) claim that they were able to put a camera on their head and not let it distract them I have no comment because I do not know If I can do this in skydiving as I do with other activities.; and (2) there is little utility to the truth of your statement. Agreed, besides the social aspect I became interested in. I'm sure you would agree that we should not let students jump Velocities. YeP. Why? Because students aren't experienced enough to do so. I could point out that you can't categorically say that 100% of students are unable to handle a Velocity, and I'd bet quite a lot that there is at least one student in the world who could, but, so what? What utility does that true statement of exception have? None. Agreed So, if I were to make such a statement, most would assume that I was advocating a change in the rules I began to count on this assumption after it was recognized, or, alternatively, that I should be allowed to do something I wasn't currently being allowed to do. Because why else would I make that statement? It became a social observation, I wanted to see how people replied and their reasoning behind it, if there were willing to acknowledge something that went against the hive mind.

That's YOUR belief. Our experience actually you know, skydiving, suggests something else for 99.9% of people. That's not a belief. It's a fact. I am claiming something about cameras. Not skydiving. I'll do it again just so you are clear. Some people are capable of "clicking and forgetting" while using a POV camera. Alright fuck it, here it goes. I'm not convinced I am right. I know I am right, I didn't need to convince myself of anything. There are people capable of doing what I claimed above. Since this thread is on it's last leg I am going to inform you on what I have been doing for awhile. When the claim was made. (That people can't have a camera on their head without being distracted by filming) I knew this wasn't true. Who wouldn't recognize that some people are capable of this. I disputed that claim and have continually disputed it. This resulted in a bandwagon against me claiming that "I don't know, what I don't know." I continued to make my claim simply to see if people would continually fight me because jumping a camera under 200 jumps is against their views. They did. Even in one of your posts you acknowledged that 99.9% of people cannot do what I claimed. That mean that .1% can do what I claimed making my statement correct and the statement I was disputing incorrect. Even you continue to challenge me. Now I wasn't surprised at this reaction, hive mind is a real thing. Something that I assume most everyone missed is that I'm not applying my claim to only new jumpers or skydivers. I said 'generally' many many times. I even brought up speaking in absolutes and how it is generally not a good idea. I'm a logical and technical thinker. I found a minor technicality and rolled with it as long as possible. I wanted to see how people reacted and I honestly can't believe the mods didn't delete this thread already. That was never the intended purpose of this thread. Just happened to be where it ended up. For the finale, my view on POV cameras directly related to the activity of skydiving. A POV camera not only poses a physical risk it also poses a mental one. DSE maintains and excellent thread containing many camera related 'incidences' for us to learn from. It can be found here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693 As well as that thread there is an excellent video from Norm Kent about snag hazard involved with cameras. That can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sn2BCmnDUUM. Brian Germain has a video about how to add a quick release to fastex buckles, that can be found here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuqJV3eRH0g All of those sources provide information on to help minimize some hazards related to cameras. Jumping a camera contains a mental risk. The camera is a distraction. Whether it be from, turing it on, avoiding the door on climb out, or filming something instead of focusing on the jump. While it may be possible for some to totally ignore the cameras presence this is not advisable. One should be consciously aware that there is a potential snag hazard on their head and be proficient in their emergency procedures related to it. Along with the risks involved, jumping a camera has social stigma that surrounds it if you jump a camera before the recommended of a C-License and/or use a standard mount. Experienced jumpers and experienced camera flyers may think that you are reckless, irresponsible, or unsafe. Because skydiving is a small community that may follow you around. When someone thinks they are ready to jump a camera they should talk to the experienced jumpers/camera flyers at their drop zone -regardless of their jump number- looking for the guidance/advice. They should also go online to find all the potential hazards and ways to minimize them. If they think that they are ready and so do the people at their DZ then jump a damn camera.

I didn't miss it. You guys seem to be making a lot of assumptions based off of my view on someones ability to handle the distraction handled by a camera. That is one topic. I've offered to answer questions so you can get an actual basis to judge me by. You seem to continue pushing a false dichotomy that we must choose between inexperienced and highly informed or experienced and poorly informed. The simple truth is that information and experience are both invaluable, and more importantly, not interchangeable. A simple question for you, since you seem to like trying to boil the entire debate down to yes/no questions: Do you believe knowledge is a replacement for experience? I am not pushing that choice at all. Information and experience are both important. The context of what is being considered is important in making that distinction. Having the information can eliminate the need to experience it for yourself. I'm not trying to boil it down to a yes/no questions. Your question is not specific enough for a yes or no answer anyway because it lacks context. But to answer it. No, knowledge is not a replacement for experience. Yes, knowledge can be a replacement for experience. (That is a general statement not specifically directed at skydiving)

Claiming that it doesn't exist would be foolish. I would say that is exists for the majority/average jumper. By informing new jumpers that the things you listed can be dangerous some are able to prevent themselves from making to same mistake.

You still think this is a debate or discussion, it is not. It's closer to an intervention that's turned into a farce because you don't know when to give up the gates. The phrase "You don't know what you don't know" is not merely a shallow tautology. It means you do not know the vast scope of what you don't know. It means you are not even in a position to assess just how much there is to know and how much of it you don't know and therefore how much of it might kill you. Unlike some I do not think it is at all silly. I do think to read it glibly is to miss the point and weight of the truism. Tautology- nice word use. This should still be a debate or discussion. I claim that it is possible to "click and forget" and others claim it is not. I know you were challenging my credibility. That is why I offered you 5 questions to ask so you will have basis for claims you make in the future.

Context, nice try though. Them telling me what I don't know is the unlikely thing to happen. Again, nice try.

You're right, that is what it means. The concept of doing something without researching it first blows my mind. I would never do that. I forgot sometime that is not true for all people. I don't like those people. That is correct. Mine is still default (750 ft and 78MPH). If I do a 720 from 2k+ ish it normally puts me right about 1000 feet. Then I enter my landing pattern at 900. If I held it past 720 say a 900 there is a chance that my AAD would fire, causing a two out. I could of course test different degrees of turns up higher to find the corresponding attitude loss then adjust my starting hight. But 720 is fun and right at the edge of my 1 arm strength so I'll just stick with that. If someone owns an AAD they should know the conditions that it will fire. That is all true. I don't expect people to say that I am likely that good. As you pointed out none of you know me. I just want people to acknowledge in general that there are people capable of 'clicking and forgetting" while using a POV camera. In the time you've been posted on this thread, you should have been able to do 200 jumps. Winter, C-182, DZ only open on weekends, weather is not favorable, money, I have a life outside of skydiving. If I'm lucky I will hit 200 by the end of this season. More likely it will happen at the beginning of next year, unless I spend a couple weekends at a turbine DZ over the winter. I do look forward to my first turbine ride. Lyosha- I assure that my thought process in not lacking risk analysis. I am aware of the risks and also aware of ways to minimize those risks. Cant skydive during the week days! Just work, reading, and you guys to entertain me.

Check out the quattro, the fourth alarm is awesome.

O RLY? Your perception of who is humoring whom here and what you look like is ever so slightly off, and it's not a generational thing. Forget cavemen analogies, you're a virgin offering opinions on how to organize a gang bang. I'm just going to admit right off the bat that 'humor' was not the proper word to use because no one is humoring anyone. I'm fully aware of what I look like to the majority of you. I wasn't aware that I was offering advice, probably because I'm not. We were talking about the risks of POV cameras, it was established the there was a physical risk (snags) and a mental risk (distraction). I fully agree that they pose a snag hazard. I also acknowledge that camera is a distraction (subjective) however it while it poses an active distraction to some people others are able to stay focused and eliminate that distraction by "filming and forgetting." There are two points I made either agree or disagree it's up to you, I would like to know your stance. The caveman analogy was a good one. But what the hell I'll play your game. A virgin offering advice on how to organize a gang bang... Someones virginity status doesn't correlate with there ability to organize people. Perhaps this virgin is a party planner. Surely that experience would help them with the logistics. Furthermore we have google and I'm sure the virgin would have non-virgin friends. Between the two of those it wouldn't be too hard to track down a sex club. LGBT bars are also an excellent source for information like this. Again still all thing that could be found on google. So yeah a virgin could offer advice on organizing a gang bang/ could organize one. sure its obliquely but it is a possibility. Let's try to stay somewhat on topic because this is way out there. Now that nonsense has been addressed can you just reply to the underlined part so we can get back on track or at least away from the above ridiculousness? But to keep the side conversation going I will answer and 5 questions you have as long as it wouldn't contain and PII.

Mik, I'm going to humor you. Camera flying has its own discipline. Of course there is more to learn than the basics of safely jumping a Gopro. I never claimed otherwise. Several years ago, I remember talking to some students who were off AFF, but were not yet licensed. They were telling me how they were trying some freeflying with student rigs. The rigs were not freefly friendly. But they didn't know that. They didn't even know there was such a concept as freefly friendly. They just knew there was such a thing as freeflying, and couldn't think of any reason why they shouldn't try it themselves. Today, I witnessed a non-licensed jumper who had gone tracking. Besides not knowing that he wasn't permitted to do a tracking jump as a student, he didn't know in which direction tracking jumps went, and I'm betting he had no idea why it was important to have a direction, and also why he shouldn't track up and down the line of flight. These are examples of people not knowing what they don't know. Fair enough, those are excellent examples of that phase being applied. "not knowing what they don't know" = Clueless. I can't claim those people don't exist. So I stand corrected. Thank, you for clarifying that this term works when applied to a specific scenario. Honestly reading those examples made me cringe. We live in the age of information, what kind of person goes out and tries something without doing and kind of research? That's crazy we have, google, this web site, an instructor/experienced jumper, why would you not use any of those resources! If it is new to you then there is definitely more you can learn about it even if it's not new there is something you can lear about it. People like that drive me absolutely insane. Thanks, for reminding me they exist and that I despise them. The111: however the caveman should know that there are things in that civilization that he doesn't know about. The phrase only works when applied to a specific scenario. The caveman would be naive about the engine but he should at lease be aware that there will be things he doesn't know about. But then again some people are just... clueless.

And why would that be a problem? Or is that something else that you "don't know that you don't know"? Is that a real question(s)? People keep saying "don't know what you don't know" Have you ever thought about how ridiculous that statement is? It's literally impossible to know about everything. Since it is impossible to know everything and people in general are aware that they do not know about everything how can one claim that someone isn't aware that they don't know something? It's why people learn. It's like saying that people aren't aware there is something to learn about. Which again is a ridiculous statement. But I'm curious, what is it exactly that you don't think I have ever considered/hear of/read about/experienced/discussed that is directly related to my post?

There was no 360, there was a 270, and after that he was too deep in the corner to do anything but bounce. I eagerly await your inevitable opinion on swooping after you have mastered the art of camera flying. Totally was a 270, Can't believe he didn't bail at 180. I already have an opinion on swooping, it's crazy. I enjoy front riser turns but I normally do them around 2k. 720 Is as much as I'll do because I'll hit about 65 MPH (according to my Viso II) and that close enough to cypress firing speed.

I was an accomplished cliff diver and national champion gymnast when I started skydiving. I did handstands on the roofs of cars going down the freeway at 65 mph. I could do a triple twist on the trampoline... at the end of my routine. I once dove 25 feet, head first, into a sand hill. That was 20 years before you were born. Don't, for 2 seconds, think your generation is the first to be "extreme". I (my generation) was no better equipped to wear a camera at 200 jumps than you or any one else. I didn't know that then. You'll learn this in time. Now, GET OFF MY LAWN.

After the 360 I thought he was going to land but he just kept going. I don't mean we, as in you and I, I mean it as a comparison of all the posters in this thread. It's basically a way to say "kids these days" and "old people" in the same sentence; it also applies cultural and environmental context for the basis of the opinions.

He's paraplegic now. I wish he'd gotten away with it. A swoop pond under him and he might have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk Fucking shame. Holy shit, I can't believe he went for that. He was so low! That was terrifying. Dorbie I know you don't have much basis to believe me when I say that I really am taking in everything I'm told here. I used to work in intel, information is everything to me. I don't think the people who disagree with me are idiots. We came from different times and we grew up differently.

If you do start to pull the slider down be cautious about accidentally un-stowing a brake.

Depending on the size of the container you might be able to sell the canopies and get properly sized ones. Did he mention if it came with an AAD? If you included your exit weight it would help people advise you on canopy size.

The bottom line (whether it's really your opinion or you're playing the role like a troll) is that you feel you're superior to the literally hundreds of thousands of jumps pitted against your fraction of 1% of the experience you're pissing against. "Written in blood" may be the hyperbole, but it's accurate. When long-time experienced people offer advice, when hundreds of POV videos online support their/our position, you're that *one* guy who is special (or may be speshul) and we're all a bunch of idiots trying to keep you down. If nothing else, you've become infamous for your armchair skydiving opinions and the rest of us know nothing compared to you, as you've read every DZ.com post and have analyzed every opinion to boil it down to the bare facts. You've absorbed those facts and therefore are a superior jumper to everyone else who in thousands of jumps, hasn't learned what you've learned via analysis and life experience outside of skydiving. You win. Go do what you want to do, but be fully prepared to reap the wrath when you harm yourself, an aircraft, or someone else. There have been several Ted's, Sangi's, and others in this online community. Now we have a JWest. You keep doing this, try and stay on topic. I am not claiming to know to know more than every one or even that I know I lot. I am debating one very specific point. People keep claiming that it's not possible to "film and forget.' Not only are they claiming it, they refuse to believe that it is possible. I know I am not the only one who can and very few people have admitted it in this thread. I've never jumped a camera, I've used them many times during other "dangerous" activities, I've been on loads when my buddies were filming, I've been on loads when we had outside video. I was capable of 'forgetting' that the cameras were there and stayed focused on the activity. There are many people that are capable of that same thing yet some people in this thread refuse to believe that it's possible. When you check your reserve pin on the ground and it's straight and properly seated do you put it in the back of your mind or are you constantly thinking about it wile turning points? This is how I imagine that going" and turn, dock, shit what about my pin, and turn, BUT MY PIN, dock, MY PIN!!, turn, PINNNNNN, dock, AAHHHH" Mess up the jump. That doesn't happen, you check it, if its good you go about your jump. If you are capable of putting one thing in the back of your mind you are capable of putting another. You can replace reserve pin with any of the items on your pre boarding checklist. Yes those are skydiving essentials but that does not effect your ability to put them in the back of your mind. You should be able to do the same with non essentials. I make sure I do everything I can to prevent harming a plane or another person. The safety of others around me is more important to me than my personal safety. My discussion about cameras has made me infamous! Neat! If something happened to me you guys can say "I told you so." Hopefully nothing bad happens under my 1ish loaded docile 7-cell. As a DZO, it is reasoning enough for me. It saves me time and oxygen debating with hotshots who have less than the minimum requirements. Time which I'd rather spend doing my job as well as I can. When you have the 200 jump minimum, feel free to discuss your intentions, and convince me of your worthiness. I may then let you jump your camera at my DZ. Then again you may show up with 500 jumps and ask the same question. I may refuse. Its my decision and arguing the point will only get you so far. Your attitude and reaction when faced with a refusal will play a big part in my decision NEXT time you ask for permission to endanger yourself on MY DZ. That's how us DZO's operate. When you run a DZ, you might begin to see our POV. That is your decision and your drop zone so I respect that. Thank's for acknowledging that just because you have 200+ jumps does not mean you are ready to fly a camera.

I have a L&B Quattro. It uses the same case as the Viso II. I haven't had a problem with it.