Nerra

I can agree with that. For what it's worth, I just bought a VK, so I very much want this issue to be resolved and am rooting for PD to be successful in doing so. I'd be happy if I can get 350 jumps on a set of lines on the VK. Safely though, I don't want to be super worried between jump #250 and #350 because the lines look terrible. Is that an unrealistic expectation?

'All purpose' may have been the wrong wording but this canopy is definitely marketed way differently to that of the Peregrine. First of all, PD lists it under 'mains' along with the VE, Katana, Saber etc, not 'Specialty mains'. It then goes on to say on the VK webpage... "Whether you're filming tandems all day" and "Great for camera flyers". That's a little misleading if you're expected to replace the lines every 150 jumps. As for angryelf's comments, comparing a VK to the VE is not the same as comparing a truck to a race car. The leap is not that big. The pilot analogy is also weak. It's more like a G4 pilot flying a brand new G5 with the expectation set from Gulfstream that the range is similar to that of the G4 and then the pilot running out of fuel halfway to his destination. As for blaming tension knots on shitty packing technique and inexperienced pilots, I'd be careful where you go there. You think at 450 VK jumps that somehow you've figured it out and that you're immune. It's this very mindset that catches people out in this sport with any sort of experience.

As someone who is about to buy a VK, I really hope they have figured this issue out. On an all purpose canopy I expect around 400 jumps out of a line set. I don't think that's unreasonable. 150-200 is pretty bad unless you're flying comp lines on a petra or something similar. Daniel, when will you be installing the HMA500's?

Exactly what skydivecat said, go to the tryout camps. Bear in mind that if you're not good enough you'll get cut. This can happen on jump number one and that means you lose your registration fee and all the money it's cost you to get there. The same goes for the actual record, getting an invite doesn't mean you won't get cut. There are plenty of people that went to tryouts, earned an invite and have now been cut while in Chicago due to not performing well enough.

It's the chest ring articulation that causes issues. Just skip that option and save some money. I have an Infinity and a Vector. The shoulder straps on my Infinity which has the chest rings sometimes creeps off to the side when angle flying. My vector doesn't do this.

+1 OK poster comes on to vent about a perceived bad customer service situation and gets accused of 1) flaunting his financial situation 2) trying to rip off a starving rigger 3) harassing the poor salesperson after just having lost her father did I miss anything? That's it... for now Tune in for the next episode where I receive the rig and swoop down double dropkicking a line of starving cambodian children* to the floor before setting the whole thing on fire and sending it back to store with a letter of complaint. *Imported for this one time stunt using my disposable income of course

Thanks for the long post Nataly, much of what you say is very valid. Just to clarify, the original post was edited for a typo 6 minutes before the first reply so there was no further explanation or justification. Everyone who has replied, has done so directly in relation to the post as you see it now. I also haven't continued to insist the store overreacted. In fact I don't believe at any point have I complained further about the store or defended my reaction. The only thing I have continued to do is correct people's assumption that I expected a rigger to work for free. How people ever came to that conclusion especially when I spelt it out in the original post, still baffles me.

We still only have his word on that. I haven't named the company so what would I gain by lying?

Please show me where I dismissed opposing views to my actual complaint? I wasn't getting 'butt hurt' about being told no, I was annoyed at the way in which the company representative reacted to my request. It's perfectly clear if you read the thread that some people completely missed the original point and decided to join the witch hunt, you included normiss. The real loser here is still the company and the rigger for that matter. It seems from the private messages I've received that there are a ton of other companies that would have been happy to give me a discount and would have happily paid a rigger to pack my reserve had I spent that amount of money with them. Instead I will no longer buy anything from there, will not recommend them to any friends or new jumpers. I would make a point of steering them far clear. In case you've still failed to read the original post, here it is again. I would love for you to enlighten me and tell me where I was making a request to warrant such a response.

Glad to see this debate is still going strong like the proverbial bonfire Thanks again to the folks who brought a bit of reality to the thread and weren't afraid to oppose the angry mob I was reading something over the weekend (completely unrelated) and stumbled across the Straw Man Fallacy. It instantly made me think of this thread.

Thanks John, most certainly will!

Well I slept on the issue and refrained from posting. I'm glad some balance seems to have been restored to the thread. My main frustration with this thread wasn't the difference in opinion or even that people didn't agree with me, it was that people were continually getting side tracked and insinuating that I was expecting a rigger to work for free despite me continually stating otherwise. I'd like to state one more time, and please feel free to read the original post along with all my other posts to see that this was always the case... I did not ever expect the rigger to work for free, I was asking the store to cover the cost as a gesture of goodwill for my continual business. I do wonder how the thread would have gone had I not mentioned 'pack job' and just said '$60 discount'. This isn't my first rig but it is the first time I've bought all new components of a new rig all from one place at the same time... beer?! Anyway - thank you all for chipping in - I'm sorry if I offended anyone - bad karma and skydiving aren't a great mix.

Things you still seem to have not learned. 1) Prior purchases do not entitle you to anything other than the standard rate. 2) Never ask people their opinion unless you're willing to hear it. 3) A person makes their own hell. 1) Never did I say I was entitled to anything. I asked if it was a reasonable request. I still believe it was. The company isn't obliged to give me any kind of discount and neither am I to shop there again. 2) I heard every bit of it. Some opinions I took on board and others I didn't. 3) You obviously have first hand experience of this judging by your general people skills.

I presume this is in reference to me not naming the establishment? I'm sure if they were to read this they could work out very quickly who I am. I started the thread not to name and shame but to see if I was being unreasonable in the eyes of other skydivers. It seems that I am. Things I have learned from this thread: 1) It is completely unreasonable to ask for discount ever. 2) It is up to the customer to build trust and rapport with the retailer, not the other way round. 3) Large groups of people easily become single tracked about an issue taken completely out of context which would explain how someone like Bush was re-elected or even elected in the first place. 4) There is some underlying sore issue between riggers and retailers that I'm obviously unaware of.

But you are the one who made the link between "discount" and "reserve repack"... Put the two together, and I get "free reserve repack." And that sounds like you are asking the rigger to work for free. This is what the lady thought, this is what a lot of posters here thought, this is even what I thought initially. Plus you immediately start the thread with "free reserve repack" right in the title!! No matter how many times you explain it, the first reaction sticks. And the first reaction is that it is not reasonable to ask for a free reserve repack. So again, your approach was flawed. In my opinion. You would have had a better reaction had *you* approached the matter differently. Again, just my opinion. I get what you're saying and in this case you're right judging by the replies. I do think that in any other industry, it would be a non-issue. In snowboarding you get wax jobs, biking you get services, cars you get you oil changes. All of these are performed by hard working people that deserve to get paid. They still get paid... the company that is operating at a profit swallows the cost. Someone mentioned free shipping... how is that any different to asking the company to cover the cost of a reserve pack? judging by the logic in this thread we're now saying it's okay for the UPS guy not to get paid. But we wouldn't think that because we assume he will still get paid and that it is the shop that swallows the cost of the shipping.

19000+ posts. You win buddy!

Thanks Nataly, this is actually a good point and you're right, timing and perception are important. As a business though, I would expect them to make the link and not see this as an insult to one of their riggers. It would have been completely different if I had approached one of the riggers directly and been like, "Hey buddy, pack my reserve for free because I just spent a lot of money at the shop you work at".

Metaphorically put yourself in their position and attempt to see things from their point of view before complaining too hard. Okay... There is a customer in front of me who has happily spent over $7000 with me in the last couple of months and hasn't requested any form of discount. He has come back to purchase an item to the value of $1500. He is requesting a $60 discount. What a self-centered individual trying to take the food out of my mouth. Be gone fool!! Well I completely understand where you're coming from now. I should have done that before, put myself in the shoes of that poor business owner.

You're missing the original point because you keep going on about the riggers. No rigger is being short changed. No rigger is expected to do the work for free. No one thinks the rigger is charging too much. No one questions the value of a rigger. This is not about the rigger. This is about asking a company who has just received over $7000 in business to comp a service charge of $60. What that service is is completely irrelevant. The person performing that service will still get paid.

SMH... read the original post.

For me, it's not about the number of purchases but about building a rapport with a local business But what can I do as a 'customer' to build rapport other than purchase goods and smile?

Thanks buddy.

Sell out. I can't believe that in an industry where people are literally saving lives with the work they do that you're so quick to sell out. What kind of terrible person are you?

Yes. You just admitted you have (or at least had) $7000 in completely disposable income. You are a fortunate individual. It is particularly douchy to flaunt that in the faces of people and ask for "free" services from people who work hella hard to provide a service that saves people's lives. Think about what you just wrote next time you request or are offered something at less than full asking price. Yes I spent $7000 - I wouldn't call it disposable income, more like a solid two years of really hard work, saving and sacrifice. Assuming that I'm wealthy because I bought a new rig is a pretty douchy thing to do. I just wanted to say good for you for saving for something you really wanted instead of throwing it all on a credit card.

AFTER a deal has been made? You're not asking for a discount. You are attempting to justify your request in terms of a discount, but according to your own account you had already agreed to the deal. That being the case, you are not asking for a discount. You're asking for a business for $60. Let's turn that around and suppose you had ordered and paid for the gear, went to pick it up and the gear store decided to charge you $60 for "delivery." How would that go down with you? Yes and no. I was actually about to purchase the reserve canopy (everything else had been paid for) and I asked for a discount to which I was told no because the manufacturer doesn't allow discounts. I didn't argue with that, I then asked if they could comp the reserve pack. I terms of pure salesmanship and bargaining power, yes maybe I should have twisted their arm before handing over any cash and that's something I might do before buying a used car from a car dealer that I will probably never go back to again. However in this case I have bought equipment from them in the past and I had planned to continue buying equipment from them in the future. It's an ongoing relationship.