FLYJACK

You are speculating to reach a universal conclusion that you cannot know. Sometimes that is fine, but for Gunther the stakes are too high to do that. I am open to the possibility that he was actually contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper.

Could be, but would he risk faking a letter and notes to Himmelsbach and the FBI??

I forgot that the letters to Gunther were postmarked NY... So, the person claiming to be Cooper was in NY around Feb-April 1972. He knew the phone number of a public phone at the Pan Am building. Gunther claimed he used Dan instead of DB.. When "Cooper" suddenly dropped contact .. Ed Kuhn, Mark Penzer and Gunther all assumed it was a hoax. "Clara" claimed Cooper was not wearing loafers,,, but heavy walking shoes. That was something reported incorrectly.

Only the parts of the book that Gunther presented as his experience are claimed to be true. That is why Clara's narrative even if 100% made up does not influence the identity of the person who claimed to be Cooper. Cooper's identity does not rely on Clara's narrative being true or accurate. I assume Clara's narrative was a script.. if she was legit or not. If however, any of those parts that Gunther claims as his experience are found to be a lie then that is a problem for Gunther.. Which is why Gunther claiming his multiple contacts with the FBI in 1972 would be a risk or faking the VV ad... or naming the others involved in the first contact.. it would be an obvious lie easily exposed.. According to Gunther the FBI believed his Cooper contact was a hoaxer in 1972 well before the Clara contact.. The Gunther book is an amazing mental puzzle to unravel using logic, reason and experience with the possibility that the real Cooper might have contacted Gunther. The stated colour of the parachute is irrelevant.. the media had widely reported it as white early on. I am not 100% convinced it was white but that is another argument. It could have been white, the FBI believed it was white and the media reported it as white. A hoaxer researching the case for a convincing narrative would have used that public info... for credibility.

The Cooper letter to Gunther and the Clara letter to Himmelsbach look to be typed and written by the same person...

If you have the book would you assume the VV ad isn't real.. the star graphic is added but it is the same as it actually appeared. Why would Gunther publish a fake ad that could be easily checked,, makes no sense.. Regardless, it has been independently found and verified. I have seen a copy of the page. Of course it is a logical error. The validity test of Clara's narrative doesn't negate Cooper's identity. This is a fallacy trap everyone seems to fall into. You made this error before, you assume we have everything that occurred in the case in the FBI files we have and if it isn't in there it never happened,, this is nonsense logic. I agree that it is not verified but not being in the released FBI files isn't proof of anything. Gunther claimed as fact that he contacted the FBI and Gray in 1972, it wasn't speculation like other (JFK type) books. If the FBI pointed out an obvious lie Gunther was done and the entire book would have been dismissed.. No way he takes that risk. If Himmelsbach read a factual lie in the book he would have mentioned it in those interviews.. You are conflating the context of the term hoax here and making another error.. was your DZ account hacked? ... the FBI and Himmelsbach believed the "Cooper/Clara" were the hoaxer, not Gunther. These are two different things. Even Gunther admitted "Cooper" may have been a hoaxer. Many people seem to conflate these different issues. Did Gunther make up the entire Cooper contact.... or was he contacted by a real person, (legit or a hoaxer)? The information indicates that he was contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper... If you accept that premise the entire Gunther thing changes.

Sounds like you haven't read the book,, the VV listing is in the book and has been independently confirmed. Gunther claimed he contacted the FBI several times in 1972. Gunther named others who were involved with the first "Cooper" contact,,, were they in on the hoax? But you make a common error. Clara's story is at least partially or perhaps completely fabricated and the "Cooper" contact could still be legit.. Discrediting part or all of Clara's narrative doesn't affect the Cooper contact. In the book, Gunther told parts that were his first hand experience, the contact with "Cooper" the contact with the FBI (first in 1972) and Himmelsbach and the contact with "Clara"... Those things he is representing as true,, the Clara narrative is Clara's story. Gunther claimed he called the FBI in 1972.. and wrote a letter to acting director L. Patrick Gray III Sept 20, 1972.. regarding that "Cooper" contact. Gunther claimed Himmelsbach and the FBI have his transcripts.. and that they, both the FBI and Himmelsbach believe it was a hoax. It isn't clear when Gunther actually started communicating with Himmelsbach. So, would Gunther lie about his early contact wth the FBI and Himmelsbach in the book. The FBI could out him instantly. That is a reputational risk beyond a potential obstruction of justice charge if he lied to the FBI. For a writer, reputation is currency. No way he lies about the FBI in the book, that is too much of a risk. My take is that Gunther was legitimately contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper.. could have been a hoaxer just trying to get money. Gunther contacted the FBI and they thought it was a hoax because it was clearly unverifiable with nothing to go on. Clara's narrative is largely irrelevant in determining whether the "Cooper" was legit. If "Cooper" was a hoaxer then we gain nothing but if he was the real Cooper we gain some pieces to the puzzle. IMO, the rational position is not to be a rejectionist but to be open to possibility that it may have been the real Cooper and what that would mean. To reject it as outright as a hoax based on opinion is not rational. If somebody makes a fact based case that proves it was a hoax then that needs to be evaluated.

If Gunther's encounter with the person claiming to be Cooper was real (hoaxer or the real Cooper) then he was in or close to NY.. from Feb - April 1972. He requested and responded to the ad in village voice. He contacted others in NY.. He asked Mark Penzer to go to a public phone in NY and got the number correct.

I checked the reference to Miller Wohl stock and it checked out.. it was in the $40's in 1977... could have been planted for credibility though...

It is self evident,, if Gunther was contacted by a pair of hoaxers then the book tells us nothing about Cooper. But, if Gunther was contacted the real Cooper it gives us clues about his identity. Jude's (DanCooperHimself) video gives us insight on the technical side of writing but it doesn't move the needle either way.. We already know Gunther was an accomplished writer... but Jude seemed to miss the premise of Gunther's book,, He was not claiming that Clara's story was factual.. or even that he was contacted by the real Cooper.. He gave his first hand experience with the Cooper contact. (His truth) He also gave his first hand contact experience with Clara and Himmlesbach. (His truth) And he gave Clara's narrative as told to him.. (Clara's truth) IMO, Gunther went through this experience and could not determine if it was the real Cooper or not. He went to the FBI and they rejected it outright,, Cooper was a hoaxer.. Gunther was not convinced. So, Gunther decided to write a book to publish his experience and let the reader decide. Gunther was really expressing his own battle with trying to determine if it was the real Cooper.. and if it was then there are real consequences for the case.

If Clara was real then Cooper was real. You are saying Cooper's identity can't be determined from Clara's story.. because it is unverifiable. Obviously his identity would have been obfuscated. But, if we assume it was the real Cooper, we can draw conclusions from Gunther's experience even outside of Clara's narrative. Cooper's location/residence, he survived, likely lost the money, and timing etc.. For Clara's narrative we have less confidence but may find some things that correlate with a suspect.. To claim it would not help if it were the real Cooper just makes no sense..

That is my read,, Clara's role was to convince the public via Gunther and the FBI via Himmelsbach that Cooper had died and was a good person right when interest in the case had increased... He hadn't died they wanted people to give up looking for him... I wonder if Cooper might have written the letter to Himmelsbach as Clara. I don't get the impression this was written by a woman.

The Clara narrative doesn't have to be all true, just enough for credibility with Gunther.. if Clara was a real associate of Cooper that doesn't mean her story has to true. In other words, Cooper being the real one doesn't require Clara's narrative to be accurate. People falsely believe that identifying the initial contact as the real Cooper depends on the legitimacy of Clara's narrative. It doesn't, I assume Clara's story is somewhat made up even if she was legit,, I just don't know which parts or how much.

Are you saying that if it was the real Cooper it doesn't help.. because the Clara narrative is unverifiable..

Gunther claimed that the "Cooper" initially wanted money to go to charity but that was a ruse to get a dialogue going,,, The "Cooper" just wanted money. You are right though there are some logic steps here.. none can be proven. First is.. was Gunther the hoaxer. Very unlikely for reasons previously laid out. If we accept that Gunther wasn't the hoaxer,, Then was the "Cooper" a hoaxer, if so then "Clara" was also a hoaxer. If the "Cooper" was the real Cooper then Clara was an associate. Those are the best two options.. and I can't figure out why if a hoaxer, "Cooper" would disappear then have a surrogate contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later claiming he had died and was a good guy.... it makes more sense if he was the real Cooper.

Even speculation is based on reasoned analysis of information.. but it can't be evaluated without the underlying argument.. Not all speculation is equal... You claimed things you read in the book caused you to believe Gunther wasn't contacted by the real Cooper. How can anybody evaluate that without knowing what information you used to reach that conclusion. I haven't seen anything in the book that indicates the "Cooper" contact was or wasn't the real Cooper. This happens all the time in this case because we don't have a lot of hard facts. We have to use speculation or inference to try to understand things. Most people conclude the Gunther book is a hoax but nobody can put together a good argument or they have misunderstood the book.. If it was a couple of hoaxers it tells us nothing about Cooper. If it was the real Cooper that tells us he survived, he likely lost the money, he was on the East coast and suddenly dropped contact. He was probably alive in 1982 but wanted to be considered dead by using an associate to push that narrative.

We aren't hijacker's either.

Am a skeptic by nature as well.. That is why I asked... why would hoaxer Clara contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later.. it doesn't make sense.

You missed the premise of the book, Gunther was not fooled.. he admitted that he did not know if Cooper and Clara were legit and was not representing the contact as the real Cooper.. He was telling his experience and left it up to the reader. It is very unlikely Gunther perpetrated the hoax or made it all up,, his reputational risk and legal exposure going to the FBI was too high. He was already successful and didn't need the risk.. He likely filled in some things with research and case info from Himmelsbach. Essentially we have two primary possibilities.. Both the initial Cooper contact was a hoaxer and Clara was a hoaxer.. or It was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate.. (not necessarily a girlfriend) The accuracy of Clara's narrative isn't the test, if she was a hoaxer she made it all up but that seems extreme or hoaxer to do, if she was legit she could have made up most of it. The question is motive,, what were they trying to accomplish.. The first contact was for money.. hoaxer or the real Cooper.. works either way if Cooper lost the money in the hijacking. But what is the motive for Clara, a hoaxer somehow associated with the initial Cooper hoaxer. Why contact Gunther and Himmelsbach 10 years later?? Very risky for a hoaxer and why, it just doesn't really make sense. But, if it was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate then a motive for Clara would be to establish the narrative that Cooper had died and that he was a good guy... though he probably hadn't died. This was not long after the TBAR money find, the Cooper movie and renewed interest in the case.. IMO, Clara's role was to establish the false narrative that Cooper was dead. Can anybody reasonably explain why Clara if a hoaxer would contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later with a very detailed narrative...

How do you/we know that he was contacted by a hoaxer and not the real Cooper? We can't know... I do have more evidence that pushes the needle toward it being the real Cooper. We can't dismiss the possibility. If Cooper did lose the ransom money, this would be an opportunity to cash in.. Why would an associate hoaxer "Clara" contact Gunther ten years later and contact Himmelsbach to claim Cooper had died and he was really a good guy... I just can't make sense of that. Anybody have a reasonable explanation.

Yes, he talked on the phone.. in detail. The only reason I can think of for a real Cooper to contact Gunther for money is if he lost the ransom in the jump.. The Gunther thing is a tough nut to crack, he lays it out that it may be a hoax and is telling a narrative told to him... It is extremely unlikely Gunther is the hoaxer, he would be putting himself in reputational and legal jeopardy. Clara's narrative is unverifiable. It could be partially or entirely made up. IMO, people too easily dismiss Gunther, there is a legit possibility that he was contacted by the real Cooper.. if so that is a big deal..

Not top secret info,, The stairs could be lowered inflight.. that could have been picked up in the media, from personal experience, job experience or second hand info. He could have heard or read about the Vietnam or US tests but never been involved.. He had to be very confident that the stairs could be lowered inflight but the number of people that had that knowledge is hard to quantify or source. It suggests Cooper had aviation experience or interest.. Another one of those Vortex things that has no answer..

Somebody on Reddit asked about the theory that the TBAR money wasn't from Cooper... That was my research and theory and it is a bit complex but theoretically possible that the TBAR money was NOT from Cooper at all. I can hear some eyeball roll already. I am not claiming this is fact or I think this happened, I don't know what exactly happened but it is theoretically possible. Fact.. We know that the money found on TBAR matched the FBI list. Fact.. The list was short 2 bills. The issue is the creation of the FBI list and its accuracy, it was a keystone cops type of process. Most people, even seasoned Cooper researchers don't understand how that FBI serial number list was created and the room for error. This is a bit complicated but the FBI list might not be accurate. The money was pre-recorded by the bank and in a special stash of $250,000 with $230,000 being in $20's and $20,000 in tens.. The bank pulled 100 packets ($200,000) in bundles and sent them to Cooper. So, 15 packets ($30,000) were left behind from the stash The Bank sent the Recordak Micro of all $250,000 to the FBI... They wrote down the top and bottom bill of the 15 packets remaining at the bank and said to deduct those plus the 98 bills in between from the list. They ignored the $20,000 in tens. Got it so far.. The FBI had to deduct 1500 bills from the micro based on only 15 pairs of serial numbers to get an accurate list. The bank immediately incorporated the 15 packets back into a new bank emergency ransom stash. The FBI was having trouble figuring out the serial numbers to deduct from the original micro so they asked the bank for help. The bank sent them the Recordak of the new bank stash with the 15 bundles left behind in there. The bank gave the FBI the range for the 15 sets of bills in the micro.... but there was an error, one of the bills was incorrect. So, the FBI should have compared the entire list for the first micro vs the second micro and deducted any bills that appeared on the second micro,, the process of creating the FBI serial number list was done by deduction.. They were given a total list that included 1500 bills that Cooper did not take. So, did they get this correct,, were bills manipulated after the original micro before they went to cooper.. I don't know, we can't check without the original micro.. We know the FBI list is missing 2 bills, that indicates an error of some sort. But here it gets interesting.. if they mixed bill numbers and were not deducted properly and the ones left at the bank were on the FBI list then some of the bills would not have gone to Cooper.. Those 1500 bills added to the new extortion/ransom stash may have been used for another event. Another second way the FBI list may not be accurate is if the bank stash was not kept accurate after the initial Recordak. The bills were recorded some time previous and the micro was presumed accurate at the time of the hijacking.. The bills were not recorded right before the hijacking. If some bills were used and replaced but the micro was not redone. This is unlikely as banks are very accurate but it is possible. The problem is the FBI serial number list, we have no way to confirm that they got it right since it was created by deduction and not positive identification. The point is everyone assumes the TBAR money was money given to Cooper is a 100% fact but it is possible based on the convoluted process to create the FBI list that the TBAR money didn't go to Cooper... I think it probably is money given to Cooper but it is something less than 100%... and we can't check,, the fact that 2 bills are missing from the list indicates an error somewhere.

Sure it was.. when it came out Calame and Rhodes did the media.. It wasn't just readers of the books and I don't know the exact number of books sold but I doubt it was only a few. I knew all about the Calame and Rhodes argument before I got the book. Their cred pushing the McCoy narrative influenced the public and made McCoy the #1 Cooper suspect... Nothing had the impact that they did to plant the myth. People who make McCoy arguments use their arguments, most were false or embellished. When people look into the Cooper case they find the Calame and Rhodes McCoy stuff.. Even Dan Gryder used the book as his foundation for research...

Jude missed the mark completely... Critics take the Clara story too literally. Look beyond her story and explore motives. What is she trying to accomplish... Clara's apparent motivation was to convince the public via Gunther and then FBI that Cooper had died,,, and he was really a nice guy. IMO, she wanted sympathy and to give cover. It wasn't to give an accurate and detailed account. That was her motivation and that isn't normally something a hoaxer would do. The Clara story as told by her is not to be taken as true, it has only enough facts to gain credibility whether she was associated to Cooper or not. Gunther told Clara's story as told to him and not presenting it as fact. If she was legitimately connected to the real Cooper 95% of her story could be false, half truths or misinformation. IMO, Gunther was contacted by either Cooper or a hoaxer in '72 and later an associate "Clara" who told a mostly fabricated story for the purpose of declaring Cooper dead. He wasn't. Gunther said it was her story and not to be taken as fact. He didn't know her identity and said it may not be true so no need for an NDA. The NDA is a red herring. Those Gunther notes look like a typed up version of hand written notes,, Options.. 1 Cooper contact in "72 was a hoaxer and Clara was made up by Gunther to fill out a story. Huge risk for Gunther publishing and contacting the FBI. Very unlikely. 2 Cooper contact in '72 was a hoaxer and Clara was an associate hoaxer.. then why contact 10 years later and she did get some things right. Hard to figure a motive. 3 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was a hoaxer. Seems unlikely, why do that and she had inside info. Unlikely. 4 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate (may or may not be a girlfriend). Why? To claim Cooper had died when he hadn't and paint him as really a good guy.. Clara may have been given a script. IMO, it is 2 or 4.