JeffCa

Chuck, it's not even just the "offer" of insurance. The OP has suggested that DZ's could add an extra fee (to the already ridiculous prices) so that they profit from every policy sold. This would encourage DZOs to use salesmanship, and possibly some hard sales techniques, to upsell their tandem packages with these policies. So now you have a conflict between the industry trying to convince people that they're safe, and the capitalist desire to convince them that it's dangerous and you need to buy insurance. How would that play out at the reception desk? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Loafer, I can make an attempt to quantify my comment above. Please point out my error, if there is one (or more). The USPA uses a number of approximately 1-in-333,000 for deaths from tandem skydiving. For the $25,000 rate plan, you can expect to pay out an average 7.5 cents for every person who buys a policy. Yet the proposal is to charge $4. For the $250,000 plan, you can expect to pay out 75 cents for every policy holder, yet the proposed premium is $26. I know there is overhead, commissions and profit to be considered, but this is outrageous. Do you know what I've been thinking the skydiving world needs? We often get questions on here about insurance for regular jumpers. The scuba diving industry has some great scuba-specialist plans, which cover very scuba-specific issues, on an annual or single-trip basis. Some examples are from DAN and DiveAssure. http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/insurance/ http://www.diveassure.com/new/usa/ For some reason, nobody has made such a plan for skydivers, despite there being pent-up demand for it. I know the risk is probably higher for skydiving, but the rates could be adjusted accordingly. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I'm trying to determine how difficult this stunt is. We know it's brave (or stupid), but how hard is it? Assuming the spot is good, could any competent skydiver guide into a spot 100'x100' on the ground, or does it require much more skill than that? How would we test/practice if we could do it, without killing ourselves? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Not a DZ owner, but I have a question. Does anybody else think the premium being proposed is horrendously high? Given that the risk of death from a tandem skydive is in the range of one in several hundred thousand, I would never pay the proposed fee for the amount of payout being offered. Such prices would take advantage of the customer's perception that the jump is probably a whole lot more dangerous than it actually is, and somebody stands to make a very unfair amount of money out of this. I'd hope if this insurance was offered at the proposed prices, that it would be widely ignored by passengers. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

http://www.basejumper.com/ "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Can I suggest that the name of this thread be changed, so that people know what it's about or can at least find it later with the search function? We seem pretty bad at this on this forum. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I made this thread a while back: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4641881 Only 31% of people responded that they did tandem first, and many of them were because it was a requirement for solo training or because they didn't even know about solo then. My first jump was a solo static line, a one-time thing. Only did tandem once years later with the then girlfriend, then did full solo training a couple of years after that. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

None here in Japan. You'll get holds for many other reasons, though. [remainder of comment deleted in case lawyers really do read DZ.com] "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

A wingsuit purely designed for BASE? Off-topic, no?

I have a very difficult time believing that there are half as many active skydivers in China as in the USA. Where does this 10,000 in China number come from? I'm living in that area of the world, and have never heard of a large community there, or any dropzones to visit. Was it completely a guess based on its population, or is there sport jumping going on there that I've just never heard of? Depending on how you define "active", I'd estimate only between 200-400 in Japan. Not familiar with the 2-3 other DZs in the country, but know that ours is the biggest, with the biggest plane, and we're still kinda small. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Look up "burden of proof". It is not my obligation to prove anything, as I am not the one making the claim. It's your obligation. "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The "cold causes colds" thing seemed obvious too, until it was put to the test. Millions of parents knew that sugar made their kids hyper, but it failed under testing. Your example of opening the canopy of 50 feet is silly, because it can be shown with basic math that it's more dangerous. And no, anecdotes from individuals is not evidence. If it was, I could conclude that somewhere between intermediate and advanced levels, jumpers forget what the cutaway handle is for. Correlation does not equal causation. Not only can you not demonstrate the causation, you have failed to even provide data that there is a correlation at all. If you could just show the correlation, I might give you the causation for free. Therefore, I'm putting this in the "potential myth" category. Edit: I simply asked if there was data to back it up. Just write, "No", and move on. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I can't agree with this. If the graph calls intermediates a "hazard", I want to see the data. If nobody can supply it, then I have to conclude that it possibly is not true. To be clear, this isn't about what people know, it's about whether or not they are more hazardous than other jumpers, and that requires more accidents to be taking place. So here is the question, as I wasn't properly represented in the other thread you made: "Does overconfidence in one's own intermediate abilities in skydiving actually lead to more accidents than having more or less knowledge and not being overconfident?" I know the graph was just a stupid tease, and I did smile at first, but it raises an important point that would be really great and useful if it could be backed up with anything other than anecdotes. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

That is not my question. The graph that we are discussing calls those people in the intermediate range a "hazard". I'm looking for data that they get into more accidents, not about how much they know. Not knowing the difference between a slink and a rapide link will not likely result in an accident. Not knowing how my reserve gets packed will also not likely result in an accident, if my rigger is competent. So show me that intermediate jumpers are lacking in the knowledge that directly leads to a higher proportion of accidents, by showing me that they get into more accidents per jump than other skill levels. I'm NOT suggesting that it isn't true, I'm asking if we can back it up with data, or if I have to categorise it as a popular myth that may or may not be true. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

As my CBC (Canadian-born Chinese) friend says, (add the stereotypical accent in your head), "What Canada? This New China!" "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Bad thread drift.... I'm not Japanese and have the Japanese flag here because it's where I jump. Different people seem to have interpreted the use of the flags differently. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

The Einstein quote in your signature is widely believed to be a fabrication, nobody has been able to find proof that would link it to him. But best of luck to your DZ! "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Tokyo Skydiving Club has drastically lowered their ticket prices over the last few years. 20% for single jumps, and over 50% if you buy in bulk. My understanding is it has to do with the ownership of the plane being transferred to the club, or something like that. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I'm familiar with Sangi, and with the low-jump highly-loaded reserve dude. Scary stuff. I'm also familiar with super-experienced jumpers who think they don't have to pull their cutaway handle, because they can fix it. Seems the more experienced you are, the more likely you are to go in by not cutting away, but I have no data for this. Why doesn't somebody just write, "No, we have no data to support this"? The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", and I just get anecdote after anecdote whenever I ask this question. Nobody has written, "No", yet nobody has provided the data, either. If this myth is not true, it wouldn't be the first thing that "everybody knew" that wasn't true. Everybody knows that cold weather causes colds, yet it doesn't seem to hold up when tested. Everybody knows that sugar causes kids to get hyper, yet that also doesn't hold up when tested, etc. How hard is it for the USPA to compare fatalities (I know data for non-fatal accidents are not necessarily kept) among the various experience levels and compare it with the number of licences in the various categories? It's not perfect, because you can have 1,000 jumps and an A-licence, but it would be a good start. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

No joke. And it's not necessarily about jump numbers. It's more about attitude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect I only stumble on this a few years ago, but it explains so much about some of my former coworkers. So do I understand that there are no data suggesting that intermediate jumpers have more accidents? The Wikipedia article about the effect does not translate into real-life accidents without some more evidence. Do we have any support for the idea that intermediates get into proportionately more accidents or are more hazardous? If not, why not? Shouldn't somebody be keeping track of this if it's truly so dangerous? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I know this is a common belief in skydiving, but is there actual evidence to back it up, or is it just a myth/joke? Are intermediate jumpers having proportionately more accidents than beginners and experienced? I've only been following fatality reports for 3 years, but it seems that we've had a whole lot of very experienced jumpers going in. So are there data to support this? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I have over 100 jumps on my Racer now, and the toggles do seem very secure. People at the DZ think it's a strange way to store them, and a master rigger suggested I don't do it like that, but they work. Not quite bulletproof, though. I had one of the snaps itself (on the riser) break into pieces after a few jumps. Got it replaced, and no problems since. Edited to add: Even though the snap broke into pieces on opening, I didn't have a toggle fire because the second snap held it in place. So OK, maybe bulletproof. Sorry for the thread drift. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Yes, I read that. It's why I made my comment about him being trustworthy. I guess you didn't get the intentional understatement. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I could swear I read somewhere that you did have to get the licence issued and pay for each one, but I guess that wasn't correct. You seem to be a trustworthy authority on this. It does answer a question I posed on the dropzone last weekend, about why C licence numbers are higher than B licence numbers in Parachutist. I had to get my B to do our annual night jumps, but I guess a lot of people just skip it. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Do something that many in skydiving don't seem to do and read the manuals for your gear! "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I would agree that having it "offests some of the disadvantages." Having it as a "Flight Data Recorder" gives unbiased, unarguable proof of what happened (assuming whatever happened was "on camera"). But I don't see that being the case often enough to make it a valid argument. I don't think it offsets enough of the risks to make it worthwhile. Of course it's a valid argument, because what you wrote is exactly what I wrote. Nowhere did I write anything different. Some people may be so hung up on dissing cameras that they would refuse to admit that there are any pros to it at all. I put forward a pro, stated that it was a pro, also mentioned that there are cons. So my argument is that the dashboard cam factor is something for the + column. I'm hardly a "strap a camera on all newbies" proponent. I don't even fly a camera, because I think the cons outweigh the pros. I even have a GoPro 3+ Black right now, but only use it for scuba. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth