Should FFC students ...

[SuperGirl 0]

Also, consider the case when something unexpected happens and the student needs to deploy early, without the coach necessarily knowing why.

Maybe they hurt their foot/shoulder/whatever on exit and want to give themselves more time under canopy to deal with it (doesn't even have to be exit related, it could just be a pre-existing condition that they failed to think or tell the coach about)

The wingsuit student should have some means of alerting their coach if for whatever reason they are choosing to deploy earlier than planned.

[LouDiamond 1]

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How is this even a question? Wave off on every skydive to avoid a mid-air collision. If someone isn't ready to handle tapping their heels together in a wingsuit, they have no business flying one.

+1. Anyone who thinks teaching to wave off is not needed during a FFC shouldn't be teaching a FFC to anyone. It boggles my mind that this was even a question. I stand corrected though....there is such a thing as a dumb question.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

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In the current world of extreme leg wing pressurization how much waving off is going on these days anyway...

What "extreme leg wing pressurization" is found in student suits? Should suit size, pressurization play a role in whether a waveoff occurs?
And...if one can't wave off in a carpet suit, one probably shouldn't be flying one, should they?

[DSE 3]

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How is this even a question? Wave off on every skydive to avoid a mid-air collision. If someone isn't ready to handle tapping their heels together in a wingsuit, they have no business flying one.

+1. Anyone who thinks teaching to wave off is not needed during a FFC shouldn't be teaching a FFC to anyone. It boggles my mind that this was even a question. I stand corrected though....there is such a thing as a dumb question.

I have a feeling Butters found the same FFC video I was pointed to recently (series of them) where the student doesn't wave off, and when asked about it, the instructor allegedly said "Wave offs are not necessary for the first flight."

[BIRDDOCTOR 0]

+1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 ect. ect. I can't believe we even need to have this discussion. Last year I almost hit another wingsuiter (15 WS jumps) deploying his canopy during breakoff because he never learned to wave off in a wingsuit from some "I've done 20 WS jumps let me teach you how to WS" guy. Needless to say I ripped in to him and I don't think he'll not wave off again.

Base# 1638

[lonedfx 0]

I think it depends, from what I'm reading here it seems that after an FFC in the US, the student can go fly in groups anywhere with anybody. Certainly if that's the case he should know to wave off on his next flights.

Here (france), I had to qualify for group flights with an instructor before I was allowed to join in. I wasn't told to wave off during my FFC, but was told to do so during group qualification.

I practice the same thing with my students now, and they can't fly groups at our dz unless they have that qualification from me or another instructor (or can justify of enough prior experience, for foreigners for instance), and I don't see any dropzone manager letting it happen at their dz either when I specifically write "aptitude for solo flights" in the student's logbook. I don't see how an instructor could grant the qualification without wave-off being a requirement either. Not saying it's the best way and everybody should do the same as we do, it's just a nice way of splitting the amount of things to know about/remember/do while you learn wingsuiting. There are already so many during the FFC...

Now would it serve any purpose to have the student wave me off during FFC or at any point during coaching before he can fly groups ? Well... I don't know if that would do anything for me really. Flying above or behind the student is a definite no-no, so if I'm there, i screwed up and I'm going to be going away immediately anyway. I try to fly alongside the student, always slightly ahead and I have my audible warn me 200m above the student's opening altitude, so I can pay extra attention from that point on. I'm a fairly new instructor but from what I've seen of others around me, they seem to be doing something similar.

I can't really see a negative side to doing it on FFC either though, other than perhaps adding to the complexity of the opening, i would expect many students to just forget to do it. It's not that complex to wave off, of course, but regardless of how much you de-dramatize them, some students are sressed up about wingsuit openings, just from things they've heard, i could see the argument made for streamlining them the first time on, but not if you're going to allow the student to fly groups after that.

[DSE 3]

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I can't really see a negative side to doing it on FFC either though, other than perhaps adding to the complexity of the opening, i would expect many students to just forget to do it. It's not that complex to wave off, of course, but regardless of how much you de-dramatize them, some students are sressed up about wingsuit openings, just from things they've heard, i could see the argument made for streamlining them the first time on, but not if you're going to allow the student to fly groups after that.

With hundreds of students in virtually every language and age group imaginable, haven't yet had one forget to wave off. It's ingrained from the first demonstration of the jump.
If we are to teach AFF Cat 3/Level 1 students to wave off, we can sure as hell teach experienced skydivers the necessity to waving off.
Campos said it best.

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"+1. Anyone who thinks teaching to wave off is not needed during a FFC shouldn't be teaching a FFC to anyone. "

[mccordia 73]

I think most students can (and should) be allowed to do 2 ways with others after an FFC. We are creating mature, aware and safe wingsuit flyers and should IMHO give them all the tools they need.

The arguement 'they wil forget' also turns into 'they may never learn' if they go too long without doing a waveoff on their dozens or more solos their coach makes them do before flying with others.

No better time to learn than straight from the start....

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[lonedfx 0]

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I think most students can (and should) be allowed to do 2 ways with others after an FFC.

Having flown a few two ways with students that did things that I considered extremely dangerous despite expecting and knowing how to react to them, I cannot agree with that. To be fair you do say "most", but then if not all, how do I know at my dz that the newcomer can or cannot ?

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The arguement 'they wil forget'

It's not an argument, it's just what I would expect from them. Probably I'm wrong, given what you guys say, based on experience.

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'they may never learn' if they go too long without doing a waveoff on their dozens or more solos their coach makes them do before flying with others.

I had no trouble adding wave off to my routine after 75 solo flights ;)

[lonedfx 0]

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If we are to teach AFF Cat 3/Level 1 students to wave off, we can sure as hell teach experienced skydivers the necessity to waving off.

We don't do this here. We teach "PAC", which is similar but different from AFF. We do not teach students to wave off, this is learned much later, when they pass their relative work and freefly qualifications.

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"+1. Anyone who thinks teaching to wave off is not needed during a FFC shouldn't be teaching a FFC to anyone. "

Again, I think it depends, but given the freedom you grant students after an FFC, I agree wholehartedly as it applies to you guys.

[mccordia 73]

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Having flown a few two ways with students that did things that I considered extremely dangerous

I advise the dangerous ones to first do some more non ws jumps
Jokes aside...unpredictable behaviour (to me) sounds like all the more reason to have them wave off.

I see many kids here who went to France just for an FFC (due to the lower experience standard) who jump straight into flocking back home.
If an AFF course can include a wave off, why would a person with 200 skydives not be able to do so? If they cant handle that stress, dont put them in a wingsuit?

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I had no trouble adding wave off to my routine after 75 solo flights ;)

What if a 'stuborn' other (visiting) experienced flyer unexpectedly followed you out on one of those and you decided to pull high? What warning woulf he have before he is inspecting your main up close?

Not an impossible scenario.....

Wave off....ALWAYS!

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[mccordia 73]

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but given the freedom you grant students after an FFC

Your students have that same freedom when they visit other countries or other dzs. Ive seen a few too many 'french taught' examples of that in various countries. Better give them the basic essentials during jump #1. If they are dangerous? Good...means they get to practice even more.

Nor in US nor in EU does any reputable coach let dangerous people just fly free. They receive more instruction....and a mandetory wave off on every single jump they do....

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[lonedfx 0]

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Your students have that same freedom when they visit other countries or other dzs.

Still they know perfectly well that they are bending the rules. Once you want to bend the rules, nothing is going to prevent you... There are also many examples of people, from france or otherwise (we teach many spanish people here for instance), who have learned in france and who I know are keeping up their end of the bargain, jumping beginner suits until those who have begun their teaching tell them it's okay to jump bigger suits, and as well for joining group jumps. Of course, people who cross borders are always somewhat in between regulation and can play with that (like with the minimum number of jumps requirement), and I agree that it's a pity that some people take advantage of that. Still they do it knowing full well that it is against the wishes of those who have begun their teaching. I'm not sure the coach or the methods are to blame here.

I hope it doesn't look like I was trying to say that france did it best, certainly i'm not. There are aspects of our regulation which are too limiting and some too permissive, IMHO. But I do think that the teaching makes sense in the context in which it is given: We actually do not require anybody to wave off for solo jumps (although many people do once they're used to it anyway). The teaching is suited to that context: waving off is a bahavior or group jumps here and so it makes sense to do the same for wingsuits as it is done for the other disciplines.

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Better give them the basic essentials during jump #1.If they are dangerous? Good...means they get to practice even more.

I'm not sure I quite catch your meaning. Good if they are dangerous ? I'm not sure I would want to put two people like that next to each other, just so they can train impacting one another... I must have misunderstood what you meant.

[lonedfx 0]

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due to the lower experience standard

Now that's arguable isn't it ? :) The kind of suits we allow at the lower standards (150 jumps) is nowhere near as problematic (or efficient) as a 'real' wingsuit can potentially be. Most countries allow any suit (even carpets) at 200, where we require 200 jumps + 40 beginner suit flights before wearing anything else (though, that's too many IMHO) and 600 jumps for carpet suits.

Again, different rules, people will always cross the border one direction or another to take advantage of that :/ People go to france to feel like they're flying a wingsuit at 150 jumps, french people go elsewhere to wear carpet suits before 600 jumps. Again, not sure who's to blame except the person crossing the border with that intent.

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What if a 'stuborn' other (visiting) experienced flyer unexpectedly followed you out on one of those

He'd be just as much in fault as a stubborn experience skydiver would be if he was following anybody who didn't have group qualification, that is, he'd be in real deep trouble specifically because the required procedures for a safe group jump are not in place, wave-off is clearly not the biggest problem here :) The situation you describe is not specific to wingsuits either, so it's really an argument for teaching wave-offs from the very beginning of a skydiver's life. I don't disagree, I'm not qualified to see the rest of the implications there, I'm only trying to give a wingsuit coaching that makes sense within the context in which it is given.

[mccordia 73]

Im seeing a lot of vague reasons for not teaching a wave-off, while the simple 'lets include it' takes out all those variables, and makes it more common/standard from jump 1.

That aside, I do wish/hope French coaches would include more common sense regarding any foreign jumper also being bound by their own rules.
A Belgian, Dutch or US jumper is still bound to his own countries rules (by which organisation they jump, and by which are insured for liability), regardless of where they are taught wingsuit. Ive seen many people 'flee' our more strict rules for first flights in favour of the French 150, or Empuria Brava's insanely low 100 jump rules. And both are at fault teaching other organisation jumpers, who have more strict rules back home.

Similarly your strict rules should bind french licenced jumpers abroad to not violate their allowed flying/suit etc if you're really strict and correct about the system you use...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[lonedfx 0]

My apologies, I had missed the most important part:

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Nor in US nor in EU does any reputable coach let dangerous people just fly free. They receive more instruction....

Ah! okay so you won't sign anything until they have the tools to fly in groups. Then I agree, the toolbox does include wave-off and isn't optional. We (or maybe just I and my instructor) just do it two step, and you don't really like that, gotcha.

[lonedfx 0]

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Im seeing a lot of vague reasons for not teaching a wave-off

Not sure what you mean by vague, I've given specific reasons why it doesn't fit with the rest of the teaching in other disciplines and within the activity in general. Again if it's a plee to include wave-off from jump #1, then sure, why not, I'm not qualified to see what that implies beyond the current discussion.

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That aside, I do wish/hope French coaches would include more common sense regarding any foreign jumper also being bound by their own rules.

That's fair.

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A Belgian, Dutch or US jumper is still bound to his own countries rules (by which organisation they jump, and by which are insured for liability), regardless of where they are taught wingsuit. Ive seen many people 'flee' our more strict rules for first flights in favour of the French 150, or Empuria Brava's insanely low 100 jump rules. And both are at fault teaching other organisation jumpers, who have more strict rules back home.

They are bound by their own countries rules, yet by your own argument, they come to france in order to break them, so they aren't bound really, at least not anymore than jumpers from france or any other country are. It's fair to say that perhaps everybody should be more careful in enforcing other countries's regulations but that's quite an undertaking for any coach in any country (unrealistic IMO). There are french people who have gone to the US to fly carpets barely over 200 jumps and who have been able to do so without any trouble either, I don't see a difference here. And I don't blame the US coaches who can't know about every country's regulation. It's a problem, yes, but it's a symmetrical one.

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Similarly your strict rules should bind french licenced jumpers abroad to not violate their allowed flying/suit etc if you're really strict and correct about the system you use...

They actually do (bind french lincensed jumpers abroad), just as much as in any other country to my knowledge, but it's hard to enforce anything when the person doing the jump is the one not reporting it. I have to actually inform the federation if I go jump elsewhere (or my insurance won't apply), and they remind me that going abroad is no license for bypassing french requirements and regulations. What more can be done, I'm not sure ?

[mccordia 73]

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It's fair to say that perhaps everybody should be more careful in enforcing other countries's regulations but that's quite an undertaking for any coach in any country (unrealistic IMO)

Ive had one French coach TELL the student to come to France to bypass his countries more strict rules.
That to me suggest a whole other motive. Knowing USA, Holland, Belgium and Germany have 200 jump rules shouldnt be a difficult thing for French coaches to adhere to? And most do know this. In the aforementioned case, selling 30 coached 1 on 1 jumps seemed to be the instructors only incentive for knowingly pulling foreign students to France and violating their rules.

Granted, a person jumping solo/without instruction can skip/bypass rules, but when it comes to instruction I like to think (hope!) we have some type of moral obligation as well to make sure people dont do stuff they shouldnt be doing.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[lonedfx 0]

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Ive had one French coach TELL the student to come to France to bypass his countries more strict rules.
That to me suggest a whole other motive. In the aforementioned case, selling 30 coached 1 on 1 jumps seemed to be the instructors only incentive for knowingly pulling foreign students to France and violating their rules.

You seem to be having a bit of a personnal issue there with someone in particular... i don't know who you're refering to but I don't think you'll find that money is only an incentive to french people tho :) I don't think it would be hard to find similar examples involving the reverse situation, like a french guy wanting to buy a carpet abroad at 500 jumps.

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Knowing USA, Holland, Belgium and Germany have 200 jump rules shouldnt be a difficult thing for French coaches to adhere to? And most do know this.

Sure, then again, speaking only for myself, I saw no reason to say no to the 170-jumps spanish jumper who had a french license and all the french qualifications to begin wingsuiting. "No, you're spanish" wouldn't sit well with me, especially because I do feel he was safer jumping the collapsable wings than he would have been at home 30 jumps later with a big suit. I've since learned that he ended up not flying the big suit at all and that's he's waiting to come back here. Yay him.

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when it comes to instruction I like to think (hope!) we have some type of moral obligation as well to make sure people dont do stuff they shouldnt be doing.

Precisely. And I like to think (hope!) we all do the best we can.

[Butters 0]

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How is this even a question? Wave off on every skydive to avoid a mid-air collision. If someone isn't ready to handle tapping their heels together in a wingsuit, they have no business flying one.

+1. Anyone who thinks teaching to wave off is not needed during a FFC shouldn't be teaching a FFC to anyone. It boggles my mind that this was even a question. I stand corrected though....there is such a thing as a dumb question.

I asked the question because I came across some videos and I wanted to find out the reason(s) why some people don't believe FFC students should wave off.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[sdctlc 0]

Hey what do you know, you're talking about some students I taught.... I would love to see every student wave off, but they do not always do it. In each and every course I have done over the years, the jumpers were absolutely taught about using the legs to wave off given the restrictions that arm wings and symmetry present. Here is another First Flight Video for a jumper making that initial jump, and he waves off. http://www.youtube.com/user/sdctlc?ob=5#p/u/8/YZ5HeqV8J_4

With every course jumpers are told that the FFC is not going to instantly teach them to Flock or fly vertically or Back Fly or any number of additional skills basic to advanced and to be able to do these, there are a good number of additional needed skills as they progress to be able to safely participate in these fun aspects of flying a wingsuit for which additional training will be needed. I look at the FFC as a place to accomplish a number things, but maybe most importantly pulling back the curtain on some of the "scary things" people may have misconceptions with about flying a wingsuit. To accomplish this you work to give them the skills that will allow them to successfully make one wingsuit flight. These include but are not limited to safely exiting the plane, having/gaining the confidence to know they can reach the PC with a level of stability for deployment, insight on stability while in flight, importance on navigation not only back to the LZ but also to avoid the other jumpers and canopies with the line of flight "red zone", to learn some of the tools for instability along with emergency procedures as they relate to wingsuiting. These skills all combine with the knowledge that have learned over the previous 200+ jumps to hopefully let them have an enjoyable jump following which they will want to make more jumps in a wingsuit.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[Sylvain 0]

Just my 2 cents :

I'm french, teach FFC at my home DZ, but request students to have 200 jumps before they start WS.

I always teach them to wave-off , but instead of collapsing the leg wing several times, I (and I think many other french instructors) teach them to wave their hands several times. It gives really good results in term of stability before opening

-- Sylvain

[dragon2 0]

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I (and I think many other french instructors) teach them to wave their hands several times

Why on earth would you change the worldwide wave-off for something that is not readily recognized as such and may (WILL) cause confusion on other DZs/with other jumpers? IMO that isn't much better than no wave off at all

PS I'm with "if a wingsuit student can't wave off (with their LEGS) without losing stability then 1) maybe they shouldn't BE in a wingsuit and 2) they definitely shouldn't be jumping with non-wingsuit coaches"

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 0]

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I saw no reason to say no to the 170-jumps spanish jumper who had a french license and all the french qualifications to begin wingsuiting. "No, you're spanish" wouldn't sit well with me

Why not? I've looked up the BPA rules when some British jumpers wanted a FJC whgen I was in Empuria, and 1 of them I declined to teach as he didn't comply with his home rules but the others did. While it is also their responsibility (they should know their own rules and follow them) I will not put my name under a FJC knowing I'm breaking someone else's rule, and would feel very bad and partly responsible if something were to happen with said jumper in a wingsuit. So no, I bowed out of that one.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Butters 0]

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Hey what do you know, you're talking about some students I taught.... I would love to see every student wave off, but they do not always do it.

I came across your video, noticed the student didn't wave off, and was using it as an example. I understand that not all students do what they're supposed to do (the video was to show this). It appears you fall into the category that FFC students should wave off. However, it appears that others in this thread fall into the other category ... I want to understand their reason(s).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch