Butters 0 #1 October 4, 2011 ... this?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 October 4, 2011 Quote ... this? Other than you remove it in 10 minutes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #3 October 4, 2011 Quote Quote ... this? Other than you remove it in 10 minutes? I didn't remove the last one. Heck, I don't even take video let alone post video ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #4 October 4, 2011 Quote ... this? the music edit: this was my post #666 HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 October 4, 2011 Do you know what is the difference between gynaecologist and an (art-)critic ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #6 October 5, 2011 I'll give a hint ... look at the legs and remember it's a vertical formation."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #7 October 5, 2011 I *THINK* your point is something along the line of "ZOMG! Bent Leeeeeeeeeegggggsss!!! American Flying!!!!11!1!" But you're being a little cryptic, so this is just a guess. Here's the challenge - when you have a LOT of people in the air, you need to find a common denominator forward speed if you want to stay in formation, right? That's particularly important in a vertical formation where you don't want to play Plinko with your fellow bird. Since we all have different suits, different body shapes and different weights, for some people that is going to be max flight, for others, it's going to be bent legs. The formation was flown at a few different speeds - the "max forward speed" one (where most, but not all, had legs out) left a bunch of people (even Europeans) behind. Slower forward speed ones built more effectively - but yes, some folks in bigger suits weren't sticking their legs all the way out. In a perfect world, we'd all have our legs out and be in perfect formation, but as I'm sure folks who participated in that event can tell you, it's hard enough without trying to focus eliminating the crease in the knee. Ultimately, I think it depends on what the priorities of the formation is - if you're trying to build a visually pretty vertical diamond, you have to decide whether it's more important to be in one's slot with slightly bent knees or potentially trailing folks who can't keep up. I've filmed vertical formations that were a lot smaller than this and were "legs out". When I look at those pictures, they don't give me a chubby any more than this bendy leggy ones do. Maybe you've got a leg fetish... Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #8 October 5, 2011 Don't you think you can view any number of videos (if not all of them) and find something not well-done. The channel you took that from has some FFCs that are of significantly greater concern. If we're going to start down the road of critiquing every video that's up in the cloud...folks'll fee less incentive to post em. Of course commenting on unsafe actions in formations or FFC's is fair game but this is a bit different? You sure this is the direction you wanna go? [edited to respond to Skwrl] Quoteyou need to find a common denominator forward speed if you want to stay in formation, right? That's particularly important in a vertical formation where you don't want to play Plinko with your fellow bird. Since we all have different suits, different body shapes and different weights, for some people that is going to be max flight, for others, it's going to be bent legs. I'm not entirely sure that you didn't deliberately leave "skills" out of the list. Any AFFI or RW competitor will tell you "Dress for Success." Same goes for wingsuiting, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #9 October 5, 2011 The faster the flying, the farther back the burble. The farther back the burble, the "cleaner" the slots and the tighter the formations. Here's the challenge - stop having a lot of people in the air where some people are in max flight (I didn't see any max flight) and others are in bent legs (I did see a lot of really bent legs). How do we do this? We could take a lesson from CReW ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #10 October 5, 2011 QuoteIn a perfect world, we'd all have our legs out and be in perfect formation, but as I'm sure folks who participated in that event can tell you, it's hard enough without trying to focus eliminating the crease in the knee I don't see how that's 'perfect'. How do you build a formation if everyone is going their fastest? You can't all exit in formation, so at some point the divers need to be flying faster than the floaters for the formation to even get together. What's the suggestion, that every formation should get together, then all at once everyone slam into top speed mode? Look at any formation in skydiving, or even any flying of any sort, both human or animal based, and you'll see that nobody is going their fastest. You look for a middle ground, so everyone (tall, short, fat, thin, etc) can go both faster and slower than the base, and in essence, 'fly' in their slot. Everything else just turns into a drag race where the fastest will be grouped together, and everyone esle will be trailing behind. How is that fun or productive? For that matter, these 'guess what's wrong' threads are bordering on lame as hell, and are actually lame as hell when what is 'wrong' is a matter of opinion. Let's say an editor flips a video 180, and a group appears to exit out of the right side of an Otter, OK, that's legitimately wrong. When it's a matter of legs being bent, or a flying style the poster doesn't agree with, it's just a waste of everyone's time. If you have a beef with something, start an 'I think this is lame as hell' thread, and state your business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #11 October 5, 2011 QuoteYou sure this is the direction you wanna go? If you post a video that we can learn a lesson from ... sure, it's the direction I want to go."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #12 October 5, 2011 Quotethe "max forward speed" one (where most, but not all, had legs out) left a bunch of people (even Europeans) behind Not related to this event, but maybe thats a signal the group should be smaller, and the organizers more selective. I see a lot of 'sorta nice' 30/40/50 way etc stuff happening in wingsuit that could be 'fucking awesome' if they did the same selective cutting that freefly and FS organisers use. No other dicipline chooses to fly at the level/speed of the lowest performer. I know a lot of good freeflyers got cut from the EU and World records, because they could not do the fasssstt speeds the group was doing on the record. The fast speed was appearantly key in getting enough fast/smooth air through the group. I severely enjoy watching bigway flying. But think we as a dicipline could grow a lot more if we would choose to tighten the flying and raise the general skill level, over going from a 68 way to a 100 way....the number always seems more important than the actual level of flying. Again...not linked to this exact thing...more an observation of bigway flying in general...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #13 October 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteIn a perfect world, we'd all have our legs out and be in perfect formation, but as I'm sure folks who participated in that event can tell you, it's hard enough without trying to focus eliminating the crease in the knee I don't see how that's 'perfect'. How do you build a formation if everyone is going their fastest? You can't all exit in formation, so at some point the divers need to be flying faster than the floaters for the formation to even get together. Look at any formation in skydiving, or even any flying of any sort, both human or animal based, and you'll see that nobody is going their fastest. You look for a middle ground, so everyone (tall, short, fat, thin, etc) can go both faster and slower than the base, and in essence, 'fly' in their slot. If you have a beef with something, start an 'I think this is lame as hell' thread, and state your business. I understand everyone can't be going their fastest and I don't think it's lame. However, I do think vertical formations are safer when flown faster ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #14 October 5, 2011 Quote so at some point the divers need to be flying faster than the floaters for the formation to even get together. Divers=altitude=speed? Its always easy to cut an arguement down with black/white views. There is more in between flying at 40% or 100%. 85% to 90% perhaps? Quote Look at any formation in skydiving, I do....they often choose to wear suits and/or lead that puts everyone in the same range/speed somewhere in the midlle, as opposed to everyone bringing enough lead to match the fastest or balloon suits to match the slowest. Quote Everything else just turns into a drag race where the fastest will be grouped together, and everyone esle will be trailing behind. ? Again...very black and white....but yes..people who shouldnt be on a record (if the word record is to mean the same thing in terms of skills-validation as it does in FF or FS or CRW) probably wont make it to the formation. Quote How is that fun or productive What you're talking about is mostly fun....if you want to be productive, you have to be MUCH more selective. Again...seeing the caliber of people who DIDNT make it on FF and FS bigways. Im shocked to see 20 jump wonders fly at mediocre levels, yet meet the current record standard some countries uphold.. For that matter, these 'guess what's wrong' threads are bordering on lame as hell, Quote As is the lack of ability on some people to discuss how our dicipline could improve the general skill level and group achievements. Its not a matter of 'not agreeing' its more a matter of 'wishing people could try harder (and formationwise, worry less about numbers and more about skills/tightness/speed), If you have a beef with something,*** Thats right...silence those people who dont think we should keep doing the same thing over and over again, without an eye for a higher standardAgain...great pix, loved the videos. But for sure hope the coming years dont just bring us bigger and bigger formations, but actually smaller and tighter...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #15 October 5, 2011 QuoteAny AFFI or RW competitor will tell you "Dress for Success." Same goes for wingsuiting, IMO. Oh, no question. It would be awesome if everyone in the formation had suits that were perfectly tailored to their flying a vertical stack. When I was there, I wished I'd brought along my Xbird (I only brought my Sbird). It's similar to the problem I have when I travel and want to film FFCs - I often wish I'd brought my Mbird (but I usually don't because I don't want to go over the 50lb checked bag limit). I suppose one of the differences between us and RW is that our suits are a lot more expensive, so not everyone who is going to participate will have the luxury of getting the perfect suit for this event. I mean, a lot of folks only have one suit and don't have the luxury of having 2 or 3 (or a fleet of them). And, of course, the suit you picked might not be the right tool for the job: if you buy a suit because you're interested in "max hang time", it might not be the best tool for you for "tight flocking". Can it be done? Sure. Is it harder? Definitely. When my regime comes to power, we'll all have custom made suits for all just for events like this (and free hookers and beer, too), but that day is still a little far off.Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #16 October 5, 2011 Quite often I see people with even the smallest suits fly with legs bent in formations. At Zflock etc the last years Ive mostly flown one model intermediate suit, and rarely (if never) even on my back have had to fly that near 100% in any of the group jumps. With multiple suits, its often the choice 'in this one I have to arch less'. I look forward to the day where I have to upsize suit, because I cant match the forward speed/glide. The only problem I see sometimes is big suits and no forward speed (using the suits as camera suits). In all cases...more speed would be welcome...its not really a thing that demands you own 5 different suits. Although at FF and FS records, you also buy a tight FF suit if you need to go fast, and dont bring the flappy wide suit.JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #17 October 5, 2011 QuoteWhen my regime comes to power, we'll all have custom made suits for all just for events like this (and free hookers and beer, too), but that day is still a little far off. I don't care much for the free hookers and beer but I'm all about those custom made suits!"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #18 October 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteAny AFFI or RW competitor will tell you "Dress for Success." Same goes for wingsuiting, IMO. Oh, no question. It would be awesome if everyone in the formation had suits that were perfectly tailored to their flying a vertical stack. When I was there, I wished I'd brought along my Xbird (I only brought my Sbird). It's similar to the problem I have when I travel and want to film FFCs - I often wish I'd brought my Mbird (but I usually don't because I don't want to go over the 50lb checked bag limit). I suppose one of the differences between us and RW is that our suits are a lot more expensive, so not everyone who is going to participate will have the luxury of getting the perfect suit for this event. I mean, a lot of folks only have one suit and don't have the luxury of having 2 or 3 (or a fleet of them). And, of course, the suit you picked might not be the right tool for the job: if you buy a suit because you're interested in "max hang time", it might not be the best tool for you for "tight flocking". Can it be done? Sure. Is it harder? Definitely. If your point was reality, we're in complete agreement. But the reality is, it seems the majority of wingsuiters out there have little peni and therefore compensate accordingly. They can't fly a Phantom or other small wing that would be better suited to the goal, even if they did own one. The opening jumps of the first vertical kinda demonstrated this. Remember, Andreea, myself, and several others removed our larger suits and put on Phantom 2's. The first and last photos bear out the quality that came with downsizing the suit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #19 October 5, 2011 Hell. Last vertical challenge I attended I had to ditch the S-Bird in favor of Purple Mike's P2. Fallrate was way high, forward speed rather low, big suit was washing all over the place even with my wings behind my back. I can fly anything, under any conditions, but trying to force that suit to do the job would have just been stupid. The only way to hold that slot was to fly with armwings completely shut down and my tail squeezed almost entirely shut. Looked like crap and flew worse. Like driving a car on 3 flat tires. If I'd insisted on continuing that way I would have ruined the event. It only took two tries for me to ditch the big suit with no hesitation. Granted, I'd have liked the whole formation to jack it up a bit since higher forward speed and lower fallrate would make the whole flock work better in addition to making it easier on me, but you work with what you've got, not what you'd like to have, and Mike's P2 was the right tool for the job. Now can we please, please outgrow that snooty elitist "I'm too good to bend my legs a little to fly with others" routine? Its getting old. I'm 135 lb and can sustain mid-20's as long as I damn well please. If I insisted on only ever flying flat and wide and legs out I'd be flying alone. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #20 October 5, 2011 QuoteNow can we please, please outgrow that snooty elitist "I'm too good to bend my legs a little to fly with others" routine? -B Who stated that they were to good to bend their legs a little to fly with others? You said exactly what I've been saying ... QuoteI'd have liked the whole formation to jack it up a bit since higher forward speed and lower fallrate would make the whole flock work better. ... that a faster flock makes the whole flock work better (and I believe makes the flock safer for vertical formations). PS: I applaud you for switching suits."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #21 October 5, 2011 Damn, didnt figure the forum was that active. After a minute I figured what I said didnt contribute much to the conversation so I removed it. I'll put it back to avoid confusion. ------------------------------------------------------------- Hell. Last vertical challenge I attended I had to ditch the S-Bird in favor of Purple Mike's P2. Fallrate was way high, forward speed rather low, big suit was washing all over the place even with my wings behind my back. I can fly anything, under any conditions, but trying to force that suit to do the job would have just been stupid. The only way to hold that slot was to fly with armwings completely shut down and my tail squeezed almost entirely shut. Looked like crap and flew worse. Like driving a car on 3 flat tires. If I'd insisted on continuing that way I would have ruined the event. It only took two tries for me to ditch the big suit with no hesitation. Granted, I'd have liked the whole formation to jack it up a bit since higher forward speed and lower fallrate would make the whole flock work better in addition to making it easier on me, but you work with what you've got, not what you'd like to have, and Mike's P2 was the right tool for the job. Now can we please, please outgrow that snooty elitist "I'm too good to bend my legs a little to fly with others" routine? Its getting old. I'm 135 lb and can sustain mid-20's as long as I damn well please. If I insisted on only ever flying flat and wide and legs out I'd be flying alone. -B ----------------------------------------------------- Scuse me. As Teh Skwrl noted, we do get a lot of "Zomg American flying" comments. Funny thing is, for example I've repeatedly seen the Soul Flyers guys show up at big events here and they often can't hang... falling out of even easy formations... the small triangular suits popular in that crowd may be nimble but no performance at all.Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #22 October 5, 2011 Another funny, normally I keep my ragged-out S-6 handy as a backup suit, but go figure, for that vert event I left it at home, didn't think I needed it. Fortunately Mike had a spare he was willing to loan me. Looked weird as all hell with 2 Purple Mikes in 1 formation and its the first time in years I've been seen flying anything other than my usual blue and white colors, but damn was it a lot of fun. Right suit for the job makes all the difference. I went from spending all my concentration trying to contain an S-Bird to instant pinpoint precision in Mike's suit. It made it EASY... I could open the suit out to 3/4 and hold my slot (or, ahem... Justin's ) without even thinking about it. Maybe I should have thought about it actually... I'm still a little embarassed about that slot-stealing episode. -B Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #23 October 5, 2011 Quote Any AFFI or RW competitor will tell you "Dress for Success." Same goes for wingsuiting, IMO. This is so true, and if you don't own the right suit you could always rent one. Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #24 October 5, 2011 Or directly but the one you can fly the rest of your wingsuit career JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #25 October 5, 2011 Quote Or directly but the one you can fly the rest of your wingsuit career That's as silly as only having one car or one woman.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
