mccordia 73 #51 November 3, 2011 I think both this and our Dutch comp will feature the more complete PPC version next year. This 'best 2 out of 5' seemed like a fun first go. And indeed, this time more weight won't hurt. Though looking at the PPC page, few of the top scores in speed actually are heavy people...several are actually tiny light people in small suits...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #52 November 3, 2011 I am attending for the "love of the sport" and to learn a new side in the discipline...thanks for the info. SimonSummer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #53 November 3, 2011 Quote Interesting you make this distinction as heavier pilots have an advantage in the speed round. :) Only if they know how to use it. Through quite a bit of testing, it's obvious that the weight can help if leveraged properly. And it's not that easy to do. The PPC scores page demonstrate that. Robi isn't very heavy in relationship to height, but he does pretty well. Either way, this comp version is easier on the competitor, provides more options for a new competition, has a great potential for a lot of fun, provides more peeps opportunity for bragging rights and talking shit, and providing a solid foundation for where this is going in the very near future. Although it's a comp with real scores and real rankings, it's also about having a great time and bringing something new to the discipline. Sorry we won't see you here to claim your share of tin, James. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #54 November 3, 2011 Hey Spot, I am at Elsinore . Spotted you briefly yesterday and then had to leave the DZ to run an errand before I could come say Hi. I will be at the DZ today the whole day if there are others to jump with or at the casino playing poker if there is no jumping. This is awesome...windy at the DZ? The casino is a mile and a half away. Kris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gzimmermann 0 #55 November 3, 2011 Spot, could you please post the exact rules (3K-2K window?) and times of the competition so that we can watch on live stream http://www.ustream.tv/channel/performance-cup-wingsuit-competition-skydive-elsinore while working / being bored in grey clouded Europe? I am so sad I cannot be with you all and wish you a FUN, CHALLENGING and SAFE competition!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Migs 0 #56 November 3, 2011 I will be flying out here shortly in just a few hours. See you guys in the AM!~Migs~ On Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #57 November 3, 2011 I'll be arriving late tonight. Hopefully the Wx will cooperate tomorrow. If not, I'm sure there will be plenty of stupid skydiver tricks to watch.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam_Adams 0 #58 November 4, 2011 Quote Time....is for skinny lil' guys in big suits; no talent required. They can be a leaf that goes nowhere. looking at the topscores at the ppc website, you are right. caldwell, boole, uragallo, kloska, tacke, scherrinsky...they are ALL skinny and little...and absolutly talent free everybody who knows a little more about this kind of competitions agrees that each disciplin (time, distance and speed) favors a slightly different tecnique, body shape and suit. and without talent, you get nowhere. on the ppc website you can analyse each individual jump by graphs. show us one of the ten best time jumps where there wasn´t at the same time a big distance covered (taking into acount the influence of wind that can´t be seen for the individuel jump.on some there was a lot of headwind involved, still, no one ever managed to get a great time just "falling down like a leave that goes nowhere") blue skies and cu saturday timYou see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #59 November 4, 2011 Quote Quote Time....is for skinny lil' guys in big suits; no talent required. They can be a leaf that goes nowhere. looking at the topscores at the ppc website, you are right. caldwell, boole, uragallo, kloska, tacke, scherrinsky...they are ALL skinny and little...and absolutly talent free everybody who knows a little more about this kind of competitions agrees that each disciplin (time, distance and speed) favors a slightly different tecnique, body shape and suit. and without talent, you get nowhere. on the ppc website you can analyse each individual jump by graphs. show us one of the ten best time jumps where there wasn´t at the same time a big distance covered (taking into acount the influence of wind that can´t be seen for the individuel jump.on some there was a lot of headwind involved, still, no one ever managed to get a great time just "falling down like a leave that goes nowhere") blue skies and cu saturday tim Didn't say "no talent involved in previous comps..." but rather "no talent required." Lightweight plays a significantly greater advantage to time than heavier weight grants to speed. For this first comp, we wanted to make it fun and similar advantage to everyone. In the future, we'll likely grant a larger budget to the comp and add time as one task in the jump series. Of the three possible tasks, Time is the least talent-driven. Perhaps I should have said "Less talent required?" Quote (taking into acount the influence of wind that can´t be seen for the individuel jump.on some there was a lot of headwind involved, any more than it takes into account the jumps where tailwinds were involved, either.Looking forward to seeing you Saturday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam_Adams 0 #60 November 5, 2011 QuoteOf the three possible tasks, Time is the least talent-driven. In speed the best scores ever archived have been done with a tailwind component. looking at these results you figure that speed is done best most of the time with an average glide ratio of 1.5 while time in tailwind conditions has a glide ratio better than 3. in speed all the good scorers shoot through the competition window in less than 20 seconds (with only few exceptions within the top ten) meaning they loose more than 3000 feet in less than 20 seconds. to clarify, i mentioned the tailwind fact in the beginning cause this is how good results have been archived in speed. if we do this in no wind conditions speed favors a glide ratio of 1 roughly. we figured this out in quite a few years of doing performance competitions. so are you really trying to say that putting on a wing suit and falling with the fall rate of an aff student and a glide ratio of roughly 1.5 is more demanding than putting on a wing suit and fly it so efficient that you get a glide ratio of 3 or bigger and maxing out the time in the competition window by converting a powerful dive into forward speed to absolutely minimizing vertical fallrate? to clarify one more thing. i don't mind speed been done on competitions and i don't say one discipline is harder than the other. all three disciplines are challenging especially if they have to be done in the same suit. i don't know if you have ever competed in all three but if you have you shurly enjoyed the different demands of these challenges. its great to hear that you are thinking about making future competitions more complete and also i love the fact that you are getting into performance competitions now and that you are bringing this discipline to the us! great job! and i am looking forward to more interessting conversations on the subject on the dz. most of all i am keeping thumbs pressed for good weather tomorrow and sunday! cu tomorrow timYou see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #61 November 5, 2011 QuoteIn speed the best scores ever archived have been done with a tailwind component. Wind also affects distance. But for both its only relevant in the absolute ranking online. Among the competitors at this or any comp, wind is almost the same for everyone, so not that relevant. No skill in diving like an AFF student? 1.5 is better than most flocks, and even there the angle and recovery are far from exact with regards to how much speed you generate. People at the same event, same suit, same angle, score hugely different results in speed due to different body possition, recovery etc. No skill? Far from it....JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam_Adams 0 #62 November 5, 2011 QuoteNo skill? Far from it.... thanks for proving my point. as i said, every disciplin needs a certain skill, a good timing, the right tecnique, the right equipment. it can´t be said one disciplin is way easier than the other. that is a well known fact and that was my whole point in previous posts. whoever says one disciplin (of the three well established ones) is supereasy and takes barely any talent....well, pick a gps tomorrow and enter the top ten. shouldn´t be a problem right? that is what makes these event so much fun. good results are not accidently happening. the fact that we see good and well respected flyers like robbie and tony archiving good results is not pure coincidence. it´s all their experience that comes into play. if that wouldn´t be the case, why would we do this competitions? Quote No skill in diving like an AFF student? you got confused with diving and fall rate. the FALL RATE on a good speed dive is similar to the FALL RATE of an aff student, but an aff student DIVING at a glide ratio of 1.5? .... i would be impressed if you could show me this happening somewhere.You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #63 November 5, 2011 Quote it can´t be said one disciplin is way easier than the other. Looking at time, it IS the one dicipline most linked to good build, while speed and distance less favour those less sensitive to gravity...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #64 November 5, 2011 When it rains, we bowl... Weather kept the trial jumps from getting up, but we'll be starting @ 8 a.m. tomorrow morning, first comp loads around 8:30. We spent this morning hearing a great lecture from Robi Pecnik about the history of wingsuiting, where he feels it is today, and where it may be going in the future. We also went bowling in the afternoon. Rules were simple; you must hold your gripper with the hand that is not holding the bowling ball, and you must be fully zipped into the wingsuit. It was a blast; thanks to those that participated. I think we had 25 peeps in wingsuits at one point. A few opted to not attend. This evening, we watched Gypsy Moths on a projected screen. Thanks to Scotty Burns for the beer, Joel and Laurence for the pizza. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam_Adams 0 #65 November 5, 2011 Quote Looking at time, it IS the one dicipline most linked to good build, while speed and distance less favour those less sensitive to gravity... Looking at the statement it IS your opinion not a fact. i agree that speed allows a really fat person to get a good result cause an outstanding glide ratio is not really needed there. only a good distance over time ratio (no matter how big the distance covered is) distance is a different thing as you should know. havn´t you noticed that its more or less the same names scoring good distances AND times? where are the "sensitive to gravity" ones (i am shure this is a very politically correct term You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam_Adams 0 #66 November 5, 2011 but maybe show us tomorrow...its always a good thing to get at least a little bit of sleep before competing take care and cu tomorrow You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #67 November 5, 2011 Quote Looking at the statement it IS your opinion not a fact. Glide ratio is actually not affected by weight, and though sure PPC ranking has a the same trained flyers in the ranking, and SOME of them are lighter people, many comps have had severly heavy flyers scoring first over skilled tall and skinny ones. Hungary has had quite a few top 3 heavy folks (and doesnt include a time element in the competition). Unlike fallrate, glide ratio is an constant where all play equal (outside factors such as wind aside). So for sure not just 'my opinion' but actual actual scientific fact. Also the speed round wins are by far dominated by our more ground-hungry companions, and seemingly quite equal for people of all builds. Every element has a certain degree of build come into it, but scores like these are close to impossible for a heavy person, while in glide and speed competition is certainly a more leveled battle field. As to sleeping...as soon as all FlySights check out as 'full' Im gonna do so...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenediktDE 2 #68 November 5, 2011 QuoteWe spent this morning hearing a great lecture from Robi Pecnik about the history of wingsuiting, where he feels it is today, and where it may be going in the future. Did anyone take video of that lecture?For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifell 0 #69 November 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteWe spent this morning hearing a great lecture from Robi Pecnik about the history of wingsuiting, where he feels it is today, and where it may be going in the future. Did anyone take video of that lecture? Was wondering that myself! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam_Adams 0 #70 November 5, 2011 seems what your flysights are doing to your sleep is my jetlag doing over here.still stuck in japanese time.... Quote Every element has a certain degree of build come into it, but scores like these are close to impossible for a heavy person, while in glide and speed competition is certainly a more leveled battle field. so actual scientific facts is what you are using now...you have mentioned glide ratio is independent of weight (as well as lift producing area and wing loading) . now with that being said, what is the scientific reason in your opinion that people stay up in the air when they do time? and how is weight now making a huge difference? and just using basic formulars at what weight differences does it start to get unfair? 2 kilos difference? 20 kilos? where is the line that the heavier guy can beat the lighter guy in distance but can´t do it in time? i am really interessted in your answer here, cause you can show us the difference between "scientific facts" that are used correctly, describing an actual process, like flying..... and just throwing in some physic terms that are only half way understood. you went to the field of actual scientific facts, now please explain the laws that describe why time is more unfair than distance and speed, but do it properly. Quote Hungary has had quite a few top 3 heavy folks so my friends alexey (first) and paul (third) are "heavy folks" thats funny, don´t let them know please make an educated guess...how much heavier are they compared to tony, harry kloska or myself? so you are saying these guys couldn´t do good in time cause they are heavy folks? come on say it, we won´t tell them and if thats not the point you wanted to make with the hungarian comp example......what actually was the point then?You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #71 November 5, 2011 Hungary has been held more times than just last yearSkilled flyers in huge suits with a good flare can set record times for sure. But Id love to see them do a minute plus in a small suit, within the comp window. Alexey (who isnt heavy, but normal build, and not a skinny guy) did less time in his Apache (59 seconds) than Martijn Maas in his Phantom (61 seconds). In distance Alexey won. Martijn in that same huge suit (and skinny build) would/could set slow sustained fallrates you and I could only dream about. For sure low weight is a huge advantage, as the above example shows. Which is what DSE mentioned. Time does favour lighter people. And when you combine light build with a good suit, and great skill you get close to 90 second 1st time I can only brag about to whuffo's, but never actually do myself JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #72 November 5, 2011 Quoteat what weight differences does it start to get unfair I personaly dont think its unfair someone has a healthier lifestile than me. The statement was only: light people easier set slow fallrates. Especially when putting them in smaller suits. Distance and speed are slightly less build dependant. Jetlag and this discussion aside. Lets fly! See you all on the DZ in 45 mins or so! The speech was recorded and will be uploaded broadcast via the livestream from what I got.JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #73 November 5, 2011 Quote When it rains, we bowl.... man we NEED a change in the discipline... Even CReW have more girls than us.... scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #74 November 5, 2011 Quote Quote When it rains, we bowl.... man we NEED a change in the discipline... Even CReW have more girls than us.... Pick something other than Skydiving. Anyway, better chance of the few women in the sport showing up at a flock than a comp. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #75 November 6, 2011 Ok guys Just some perspective I'm the light floaty guy. This comp was weighted against me 2 different ways... one, the lack of Time category eliminated my best discipline and left me committed to a comp in my weakest areas. Two, which ended up mattering far more, the 11000 foot exit left me 2000 feet short of the dive I needed to get the kinetic energy necessary for a light guy to take on heavier guys in distance. AND it screwed me over in Speed as well, since I had much less acceleration time. I predicted that the missing 2000 feet of attack setup time was going to cost me about 30KPH in Speed and thus eliminate me almost entirely. I was right almost to the K, my best at Gransee topped out at 248 KPH, this comp I topped out at around 220. I'm wearing a medal around my neck to bed tonight that I earned in my weakest category because it DID inspire me to pull out the absolute best possible performance I could, multiple disadvantages bedamned. A REAL ninja shouldn't be afraid to take on all opponents even when all is weighted against you...just makes you stronger. I figured theres more honor in 3'rd in a comp weighted against me than 1'st in a time comp where I'm almost God against anyone on the planet. I'd prefer to see all 3 categories represented at future comps... but nothing was gonna stop me from stepping up for the sake of sheer gallantry and sportsmanship. Against the likes of the people at this comp, what possible other course of action? Honor and respect demand it. I had a BLAST!!! Quibble about rules till the sun sets. Set the rules any way you like. We came for the glory and unity and we got it. I feel like a million dollars... and if my readers had been here for this incredible fun event, you would too. The quality of people I got to hang out with was unreal. Robi. Jarno. The Legendary Scotty B. Douglas Spotted Eagle. Zack. Miguel. Sattler. Omnia. Cate. People of unlimited audacity and mindblowing gallantry. I could go on for a half hour listing names I call friends all of whom will be greeted with hero's welcome when they arrive in Valhalla someday. I'd keep going but I don't wanna leave anyone out...Joel. OJ. Lawrence. I could keep going, and going, and going... YOU PEOPLE ROCK!!! WHAT A RIDE!!! (insert customary Lurch howl here...you'll have to imagine it cause I can't type it) -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
