FFC Exit Preferences?

[WickedWingsuits 0]

In another thread a topic came up that got me thinking. FFC exit...inside or outside. I have seen both and I have personally done both. There seems to be a strong feeling against an outside exit but I wonder what the facts are behind this stance and maybe it is aircraft related?

Personally at this point in time I feel a student has more chance to "jump" from inside the aircraft. They also seem to be able to get their wings open quicker which often results in instability our of the door due to the left wing normally leading. Definitely have seen more stable exists from the float BUT I wouldn't like to think that the price is safety.

My experience with FFC's is both limited and also limited to Otters and just a few Caravan exits.

The tail strikes I have witnessed or seen video of were all from inside the aircraft and at least one was an Otter. I haven't personally witnessed or seen video from an outside exit but I am sure they exist.

Would be nice to see a fair discussions on the pro's and con's of each as a learning topic. I would like to understand more and simply learn. I am always happy to adapt based on new knowledge.

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[Butters 0]

I don't believe the issue in the other thread was in regards to all outside exits ... it was in regards to a rear-float outside exit.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[DSE 3]

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I don't believe the issue in the other thread was in regards to all outside exits ... it was in regards to a rear-float outside exit.

More specifically, a student rear-float and a coach inside the aircraft.

[lurch 0]

I prefer inside exit AFF style, have em with wings scrunched up and hop out sideways facing prop, head high. I have em exit first and I follow, cause if they forget to look at the prop they often look up at me which causes the same effect.
That exit also has the side effect that if the student gets sloppy with limb management on a sidestep Otter exit they often pop their tail open, since they were heavily focused on arm position and keeping those armwings tightly shut down for the first second. This also tends to make for a nice smooth exit, they get out looking up and the popped tail lays em down flying, neat. I figure, why not try to arrange things so even the student's smaller mistakes actually make the whole thing smoother?
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[BenediktDE 2]

One exit is not listed and I prefere that one on FFCs: The student sits in the door slighly sidways with the legs already outside the aircraft and just drops off.
A bit like in this picture just with less gay looking googles. ;)

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[mccordia 73]

Especially for planes with a lower tail/rear-stabilaser I prefer that sitting exit. Though standing up also works, its the one exit that gives a student the least chance to jump up/back.

In some rare cases I could see a front-float exit be an option (extremely tall people), but definately not rear-float. The risk of even a small jump up or opening of wings putting them into the tail is to high.
And thats aside from prefering not to have a student be in a suit for the first time, and have to add a complex climb out to the exit briefing...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

Super-tall guys (remember Stefan, Jarno?) work pretty well with a front float exit on almost any aircraft. I don't like it much, however. But....when you're 6'7" like Ville and 6'10" like Stefan, it's really the only choice. S/L exit didn't work for them in an Otter or Caravan.
Here is a very tall guy in this video

If the student needs to be front float, then coach rear-float, the coach still has the opportunity to control the student. Same with student inside, Coach outside and student inside/coach inside. Being able to control right up to fly away is important, IMO.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Totally depends on the AC. I routinely have students outside front float out of the PAC, but they do not deploy their wings until the tail passes over their head. Out of an Otter I teach both ways: stepping out from inside with your wings pulled in to your handles (or hands slightly crossed); or standing outside in the front float position. Both have always worked fine.

Chuck

[DSE 3]

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Totally depends on the AC. I routinely have students outside front float out of the PAC, but they do not deploy their wings until the tail passes over their head. Out of an Otter I teach both ways: stepping out from inside with your wings pulled in to your handles (or hands slightly crossed); or standing outside in the front float position. Both have always worked fine.

Chuck

Yet I'll bet you don't advocate a student rear-float-with-coach-inside exit from an Otter or other aircraft, right? That's what spawned this conversation in the first place.

[WickedWingsuits 0]

Where does "front float" end and "rear float" start?

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[mccordia 73]

Are we moving back in the door inch by inch till someone yells 'thats it!'?

Its quite obvious in any case, but typicaly rear is where you fear having a student collide with a tail if they jump to much. Aside from all other obvious points (Coach not controling student/exit position/timing) that are more controlable in all other positions (standing/sitting/front float).
Next to the Coach potentialy burbling the student in the exit when that one is on rear float (as I saw in some FFC videos where the coach was more busy with his 'backfly exit showcase' than his student safety)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Electronaut 0]

In full disclosure I did my FFC with Jarno.

We did my exit sitting in a grand caravan that had a fast jump run. It got me out stable, very clear of the tail, and head up with an overall good first flight.

[DSE 3]

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Where does "front float" end and "rear float" start?

I had a really witty response, but then realized you're probably serious in your question.

[lonedfx 0]

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Being able to control right up to fly away is important, IMO.

I'm curious as to what kind of control you can have on a student at exit. Surely at some point you have to let him go out the door, and it's right outside the plane that he can potentially do the damage.

Am I missing something ?

[DSE 3]

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Being able to control right up to fly away is important, IMO.

I'm curious as to what kind of control you can have on a student at exit. Surely at some point you have to let him go out the door, and it's right outside the plane that he can potentially do the damage.

Am I missing something ?

Apparently so. An AFFI should be able to show you how. Easier shown than explained. One of these days I'll take a photo. I think someone caught photos at the last wingsuit coach course I gave.
Bill? Matt?

[freeflysoul 0]

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I prefer inside exit AFF style, have em with wings scrunched up and hop out sideways facing prop, head high. I have em exit first and I follow, cause if they forget to look at the prop they often look up at me which causes the same effect.
That exit also has the side effect that if the student gets sloppy with limb management on a sidestep Otter exit they often pop their tail open, since they were heavily focused on arm position and keeping those armwings tightly shut down for the first second. This also tends to make for a nice smooth exit, they get out looking up and the popped tail lays em down flying, neat. I figure, why not try to arrange things so even the student's smaller mistakes actually make the whole thing smoother?
-B

+1

3,2,1,C-YA!!!
V.
BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104

[lonedfx 0]

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An AFFI should be able to show you how. Easier shown than explained. One of these days I'll take a photo

I don't have an AFFI handy, just PAC instructors (somewhat similar). I've asked the question and they've shown me a few things that they agreed did not apply to my case. Could you try to put what you mean into words for me ? I'm always willing to learn, truthfully, and you seem to imply that it's an important skill.