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WickedWingsuits

Independent Wingsuit Coach Database

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Anyone else notice that their website has the yellow Phantom from PF's homepage right in the middle yet says 'Exclusively TonySuit' at the bottom?

:)



Hmz since that is an exact drawing of a picture I took, aren't my copyrights being violated here somehow? :S Plus James' portret rights, as it's him in the picture ;)




Interesting. We contracted a company to design the website. I told them to get ideas from images.google.com for wingsuits. No idea it came from something so obvious on the PF website.

We will take the graphic off this week. All you had to do was ask, no need for public drama.

WW

edited to add: if you search wingsuit in images.google.com you will see the image in question is the 2nd to display, at least on the search I did it was.
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you are kidding, right? you PAID a company to get images from google, which are hardly ever copyright free? and in such a small community too.

you're wrong. all YOU had to do was ask. or shoot your own pics.



If you take a moment to READ my post you will see I told them to use google to get IDEAS. It is a drawing and that was the requirement, create a drawing of a wingsuit....that could be a combination of ideas from google, couldn't it?

I have done this before for drawn images of aircraft....it works fine. It just appears they took a short cut in this case and I am fixing the issue. So what's your beef?
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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Haha, then don't. The thing about instruction is no matter what discipline you are in you will get experienced, instructors, self made instructors all bitching about the best way to do things.

I am not going to put in my two cents because I just got a shiny new suit and I haven't made nearly enough jumps with it so far, so I am still in the honeymoon phase.
Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

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In response to plenty of positive feedback in PM and emails I have created a link to fill in so that I don't need to be the middle Wickey.

http://wickedwingsuits.com/coachsignup.php

The database will drive a map feature, much like the "find drop zone" feature on dz.com. My intent is to allow it to be a listing that has no true maintenance or policing to it, truly independent. That might not work but it is worth a try to start with. A feedback system may be incorporated in the future.

Sign up...or don't...your choice.

Simon
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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In response to plenty of positive feedback in PM and emails I have created a link to fill in so that I don't need to be the middle Wickey.

http://wickedwingsuits.com/coachsignup.php

The database will drive a map feature, much like the "find drop zone" feature on dz.com. My intent is to allow it to be a listing that has no true maintenance or policing to it, truly independent. That might not work but it is worth a try to start with. A feedback system may be incorporated in the future.

Sign up...or don't...your choice.

Simon



So essentially anyone can add themselves without any validation as to their claimed skills? What benefit is that?
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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In response to plenty of positive feedback in PM and emails I have created a link to fill in so that I don't need to be the middle Wickey.

http://wickedwingsuits.com/coachsignup.php

The database will drive a map feature, much like the "find drop zone" feature on dz.com. My intent is to allow it to be a listing that has no true maintenance or policing to it, truly independent. That might not work but it is worth a try to start with. A feedback system may be incorporated in the future.

Sign up...or don't...your choice.

Simon



So essentially anyone can add themselves without any validation as to their claimed skills? What benefit is that?



guess the fun he'll have when he's finished cleaning up his database from people like me busting his balls.. :P
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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I'm not busting his balls - i'm genuinely curious as to the point of an unvalidated, non regulated list of people who may or may not be experienced enough to teach someone else.
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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I'm not busting his balls - i'm genuinely curious as to the point of an unvalidated, non regulated list of people who may or may not be experienced enough to teach someone else.



I don't even have to buy someone a beer to get on the list! :P
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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I'm guessing it's no different than what currently exists: an unvalidated, non-regulated list of people who may or may not be experienced enough to teach someone else... which is currently shared by word of mouth instead of the internet.

[Shrug.]

What's the problem with putting it on line?
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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PFC, FYB are quite strict and regulated listings, including people who get their listing pulled for bad teaching. I think thats a different type of listing than the one ment here, which seems more open/unregulated.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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And, of course, there are other schools that provide certification and hold instructors to a standard as well, not just the ones you listed. But what Simon was talking about was a list of "independents".

Rightly or wrongly, lots of people do first flight courses with folks who aren't certified by any of these "schools". At the moment, people find those instructors by word of mouth; Simon has put that on the Internet. I don't see the issue with that.

You can make compelling arguments about why everyone who does a first flight course should do so with an instructor/coach that has been qualified or reviewed by somebody - whether it's PF, FYB, Flock U, or whomever else you want to hold out. But that's not required by the BSRs. So - at least in the US - there are going to be "independents" (people who aren't affiliated with a school or manufacturer) who will offer instructional services.

If you're saying "independents shouldn't hold themselves out as instructors because no one has 'certified' (or whatever you want to call it) them", then that's a different issue... If that's the argument, I think of someone like Lurch - who I think is a really good instructor - that lacks a current certification. While he's no doubt certifiable (pun intended), there's no certification there... People will seek out Lurch or not based on his reputation, not based on his certification...

As an aside, it would be great if the wingsuit community - or at least the wingsuit instructor community - could get together in a sort of "summit" or "convention" to share best practices. But that's the nature of the situation we have - a number of folks who are making a living (or at least some beer money) giving wingsuit instruction. They don't have a lot of incentive to share their programs, because that's their proprietary work product. I don't blame them. But the net result is a lot of competitive behavior in an area where we are all supposed to be safety focused...
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Rightly or wrongly, lots of people do first flight courses with folks who aren't certified by any of these "schools". At the moment, people find those instructors by word of mouth



What worries me, is that in 99% of all cases, when I meet people who had 1 minute FFCs with no briefing on emergencies, people who are clueless on safety and flight paterns, people who have been put in HUGE suits on their first or 2nd jump (with often horror stories on that same jump OR a proud story on how they bought it), and people who where put in bigway flocks at jump number 2 or 3 and a whole other scary list of things you wouldnt wish on anyone....its those same 'independents'

Sadly those events are always shrugged of, and ignored in favour of 'good word of mouth' and ´not bad-mouthing people´. My fear is that un-monitored lists like these wil become THE go-to place for people who got rejected by instructors/coaches who DO stick to a certain standard.
Regardless if those are ones with a manufacturer rating (earned and taught in a way, where it actually means something) or so called freelancers who DO do a good job.

Unless such a list has someone with brutal honesty weeding out the bad apples...its mostly gonna be the scary list of people who do things different. And different isnt always good or needed, especially seeing how far good instruction has come in terms of whats being taught on FFCs and advanced coaching these days.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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But that's the nature of the situation we have - a number of folks who are making a living (or at least some beer money) giving wingsuit instruction. They don't have a lot of incentive to share their programs, because that's their proprietary work product. I don't blame them. But the net result is a lot of competitive behavior in an area where we are all supposed to be safety focused...



I disagree, Jeff. We'll happily teach anyone our methods here. We're confident that they are entirely different than anything anyone else is doing because we approach it from a very different perspective.
However...if they want to learn it directly, then they'll have to pay for the experience because it takes me off the line. If they want to shadow for a week, that's their prerogative. We're a tourism destination, so there are coaching or FFC jumps every day. Crazy busy here and we've learned a lot about how to do things wrong and how to make things better. With people like Hammo, Jay S, Lob, and a few other I/E's with years of experience chiming in about how we work...it's turned into a very successful program. Just ask our students, pilots, or DZO's.

An "independent list" of people that call themselves "instructors..." sure. It's just an internet version that reflects the real-world. I feel it suspect because it comes in the wake of the Flock University mess that hurts us all, and something related to instruction needs to be salvaged. But it's unfortunate that those that don't know what they don't know will be "endorsed" to those that know even less about what they don't know.

As but one small example:
There was a guy on the Vertical 25 way. He did not have the quals, experience, nor coaching to have merited his inclusion. He struck me in the back of the head, not only costing me a molar and camera, but 6 months later, I discovered my cochlea has been damaged. My hearing in that ear has deteriorated past the point of being legally deaf. He'd never been trained to stop and flies at a small DZ.
The two organizers told me "how we organize is none of your fucking business." Well....my health sorta is my business. And my health, your health, is greatly dependent on the quality of people that are in the sky with us, don't you agree? Coaching helps alleviate all of that.
I can promise you that any student that comes through our school knows how to do stall stops on their second jump.

With so many new people coming into the discipline, proper coaching should be a valid concern for all of us.

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....I feel it suspect because it comes in the wake of the Flock University mess that hurts us all, and something related to instruction needs to be salvaged.



I am not sure how this is relevant to this list at all. Wicked Wingsuits is 100% independent of any training method. We have referred people to Z-Flock, FlockU and Elsinore (PF) depending on where in the country they were based or were travelling. You will have to make your case against FlockU without dragging this list into it please.

One of the owners (me) is indeed a FlockU certified instructor but that bears no weight on the list at all, that is why it is referred to as independent. Otherwise I would have just been referring people directly to the FlockU website wouldn't I? To date only 2 people registered on the list are FlockU but I would hope that all of their instructors do complete it.

It amazes me that so many are so suspicious, I almost can't believe that people think the intentions are so sinister or somehow motivated by a desire to create web traffic or unleash death and destruction on newbie wingsuiters. It is, as previously stated to help a new wingsuiter make contact with an experienced wingsuiter.

The reality in the US is there are people jumping at rural drop zones that are not going to make a trip across the country to visit a school or a boogie. I still contend that having access to a local and experienced wingsuiter beats youtube and dz.com for knowledge.

Either way I am pleased to say the list is off to a good start, those that simply completed the form are highly experienced and I would feel comfortable sending my customers their way.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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Regardless if those are ones with a manufacturer rating (earned and taught in a way, where it actually means something) or so called freelancers who DO do a good job.



Jarno, I'm not arguing that people shouldn't get good training. That would be, in a word, retarded. Wingsuit safety is a hugely important issue to me, which was why I got involved in the discussion with USPA about the wingsuit instructor rating in the first place. My point is that right now, there's no requirement that anyone be involved in a school or a manufacturer's program. So as a result, there are lots of independents. Some are good. Some suck and churn out dangerous students. But since all it technically takes to call oneself a wingsuit instructor is, I dunno, being an "experienced wingsuiter" and having access to a Kinkos to get business cards made, there's no quality control across the board.

But this is my point: you can't just wish the problem away. If there's a sucky independent out there, you don't really solve the problem by trying to prevent the publication of a list of names that includes him. Sucky Wingsuit Instructor X will still find students, whether or not his name is on the internet. If anything, Simon's list creates the possibility (admittedly, in the future) of feedback - the same feedback that you might not get if you just rely on word of mouth. I applaud the effort - so long as it's non-denominational as he's been saying.

It's more of a fundamental problem with how we all decided to set up our community - people didn't want rules telling them who could be a wingsuit instructor. Cool. But the consequence of that is we have tons of different approaches blooming. Some are good; some not so much. Making the list available to folks simply reflects the reality of how a lot of folks in out of the way places get trained - whether or not we like that reality.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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A few of the most well known names have some of the worst track records in instructing students.
Simply being infamous within the discipline, much less the industry, is of zero value when selecting a qualified, safe, and sane instructor.

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BTW, how could you possibly be truely independent if your website states: "Proud to be Exclusively TonySuits", "chicks dig tonysuits" and other stuff!?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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