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WickedWingsuits

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Probably worth mentioning I wasn't the coach on that first one, since the pic has my logo in it. I haven't, as of yet, ever coached or instructed anyone, ever. I personally felt comfortable jumping in those conditions. Whether or not it was appropriate for a student wasn't my call; it was between the student and her coach.



Based on the -several- photos you posted in that jump series, it would be tough to convince me that it was "okay for an FFC." Any AFFI, or even any qualified USPA coach would never take a Cat G/H student into those clouds (again, based exclusively on the several pix you posted), and it shows a tremendous irresponsibility on the part of the "world examiner" who is the coach on that jump. That shit is enough to have the FAA step in, let alone common sense.


I get the point of your list, Simon...You want to market your suits to more people. Once again...money rears it's ugly head in wingsuiting. It's killed a coupla kids...money being the motivating factor.
Then add in that there is no interview process, no face-to-face conversation with the student about what they can manage. A professional instructor knows how to look over a student and decide which suit (or level of ability) is appropriate.

FWIW, I just took one of your rentals off the line here, a few minutes ago. This guy should not be flying the suit you sent him. It is an improper fit (just like the one I had to ground a couple months ago when the guy kept nearly hitting the tail due to improper fit/exit problems).

FJC over the internet just doesn't work. I realize you guys think you can take the PFC program from a kiped PowerPoint and water training from a few videos, but the fact remains that experience, and actually doing this stuff makes a big difference in the quality of training.

Let's look at the guy with 30 jumps that destroyed my teeth and cochlea...he was trained by one of "yours." Let's look at other guys with the same experience, flying rings around your #1 guy in chicago at less than 1/50th the experience.
:S

This isn't about "you're stealing my business."
It's about "you're teaching bad information" and giving credence to people who have no business coaching.
A rear float exit for an FFC as a "Flock University standard?"
That's just plain fucked up.

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I get the point of your list, Simon...You want to market your suits to more people. Once again...money rears it's ugly head in wingsuiting. It's killed a coupla kids...money being the motivating factor.



I do want to set the record straight on this kind of comment which we do sometimes hear.

We do not ever put the motivation of money before safety concerns. There is no evidence of that, an ill fitting suit is the side effect of a rental suit...just as it is the side effect of a demo suit not fitting perfectly. It is also why we ask our clients to get a FFC where the suit can be checked. We have on multiple occasions paid for return shipping and refunded suit rental costs because of a badly fitting suit. Most can actually be adjusted correctly with the right knowledge and that is why we ask people to find a coach. See how this is all pointing towards why we want to provide a list? It is to help people..not to actually make a steaming pile of money.

Our suits are already in more demand than we can handle and we have almost 100 in inventory now. We rent to people that are qualified by USPA standards to fly a wingsuit or are close enough that they will clearly meet the requirements within the rental period.

We require them to agree to get coaching if they have no experience. Do they? I don't know for sure..we don't have a Private Investigator checking on them but I know they do ask me where they can get help from. Thats the purpose of the list, to help people find help.

We (my wife and I) do this as a family hobby to pay for my skydiving expenses...all the profits go back into skydiving one way or another. I have a real job that pays our real bills. We have turned away plenty of potential customers because of various concerns.

The purpose of our list is to fill a gap we have found based on the questions of our customers. Some of you can continue to think there is some evil motivation behind it but it is much simpler than that.

It's great fun talking to people every day about the excitement of wing suiting and how it has change the way they look at skydiving....that's the reward we get. The money just pays gives us gas to get to the next DZ and buy some jump tickets. It is still a business, just not an evil empire.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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Playing devils advocate, but seeing 'fly like brick' clumsy worked into the frontpage of your website, I do wonder is SEO is part of the reason to list a lot a well known schools and people on your company website for higher ranking in google.

Wouldnt a true independant seperate website/list more allign with your intent?
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Based on the -several- photos you posted in that jump series, it would be tough to convince me that it was "okay for an FFC." Any AFFI, or even any qualified USPA coach would never take a Cat G/H student into those clouds (again, based exclusively on the several pix you posted), and it shows a tremendous irresponsibility on the part of the "world examiner" who is the coach on that jump. That shit is enough to have the FAA step in, let alone common sense.



So, relative to my response, what's your point? I posted that I wasn't the coach/instructor/whatever the hell people call themselves these days ("Grand Poobah of Wingsuiting...").

I'm not going to defend whether that jump was wise or unwise since I wasn't the coach on it. I took that picture, it has my logo on it, and you're holding that up as an example of bad coaching. So, without further explanation, one could reasonably assume that I was the coach on it (or otherwise responsible for it). I wanted to clarify that this wasn't the case.

Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm happy to take responsibility for fucked up things that I cause. I have a lot less willingness to take responsibility for shit that I didn't cause. Call me crazy on that one, I know. I definitely don't like the splash effect created here, particularly when you went to the trouble of blanking out the instructor's image but not my logo.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Playing devils advocate, but seeing 'fly like brick' clumsy worked into the frontpage of your website, I do wonder is SEO is part of the reason to list a lot a well known schools and people on your company website for higher ranking in google.

Wouldnt a true independant seperate website/list more allign with your intent?



A true independent website would be ideal and save me effort but it doesn't exist, does it?

I think your conspiracy theories theories are a little paranoid....but entertaining. "fly like a brick" being in our Top 10 is a coincidence...but interesting you would think of it as SEO. When you just mentioned it I had to go and look to see what the heck your were referring to!

For your information the list is going to be in the form of a Google Map so I don't think that would make a single difference to SEO....(I had to google SEO by the way).

We already have a healthy ad budget with adwords for our placements but thanks for the idea!

It's funny, that I keep saying the list is to put customers in touch with coaches but many of you can't accept this simple concept and think there is some evil motivation behind it!
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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It's funny, that I keep saying the list is to put customers in touch with coaches but many of you can't accept this simple concept and think there is some evil motivation behind it!



Simon, come on now, this has to be filled with evil thinking and devious motivations.. Look at the look on your face in the avatar, it looks very evil... what would you expect? :S

Scott C.
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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Jeff, I think you mistook my point. I have no issue with you taking photos. It's just a documentation of the jump. You didn't facilitate it. No problem. Your logo was left as a sign of respect. Apologies if you saw it otherwise.

As far as the rest:

I don't think it's an evil empire. I get paid for my coaching as well, and should because of the significant investment I've made into it. I have no problem with suit rental (I do it myself, on a local basis).

However...instruction and first flight gear aren't things that can be done over the internet, IMO. Having a guy show up with an ill-fitting suit and no knowledge about how it should actually fit, isn't a good thing. Especially when that guy decides he can manage it on his own because "dude, I've seen so many of your FFC's on Facebook that I can do em' in my sleep." (True story, a guy pulled this with a Stealth2 for his first jump).
Wingsuiting is growing. Very fast. FAA has been here twice to have "friendly looks at the wingsuit situation."

I'm all for helping people get into wingsuits. Entirely for that. I'm entirely up for helping people learn to teach wingsuiting, too. That's one of my roles as a USPA C/E. We've developed a good program based on AFF instruction, a program that is entirely unique and demonstrably effective. And will share it with anyone who wishes to come here and see it in action.
Again...it's not about taking something away from anyone. It's about sensible access to wingsuiting.
Shouldn't we strive to avoid more fatalities due to terrible coaching, lack of knowledge, and lack of effective teaching methods?

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I checked all of the links and noticed that my home DZ is misrepresented or omited from two of them. Here is my corrected contact info:

Chuck Blue, D-12501, PFC/E, BMCI-4, AFFI, TMI, SLI, PRO, S&TA
Dragonfly Wingsuit School
Raeford Parachute Center
143 Airport Dr, Raeford, NC 28376

Phone: (DZ) (910) 904-0000

I have 11 suits from all manufactuers and am on the dropzone seven days a week.

For the record, I think it's a smart idea to start a "sticky" post at the top of this forum to put everyone's info in so that people can stop this bickering.

Chuck

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For the record, I think it's a smart idea to start a "sticky" post at the top of this forum to put everyone's info in so that people can stop this bickering.

Chuck



And Chuck comes swooping in as the voice of reason... :)
Scott C
"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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Am -I- legit?
I -am- largely a self-declared independent wingsuit instructor. The curriculum I teach is my own. I'm as current as any wingsuiter out there... about 2,500 flights total, I've been in virtually every significant record setting flock for the last 6 years. The list of the happy, safe and satisfied students I've taught, that list would speak for itself. By now my former students are everywhere.

I have had no student incidents of any kind, ever.

Right now the wingsuit instructional game belongs to those of us who created the wingsuit scene itself.

When the day comes where somebody finds a way to force me to jump through their hoops and tells me I'm not allowed to teach without paperwork granting me their permission to do so, I quit.
-B



Well there you have it. It is a miracle the thousands of wingsuit students before the "great spotted instructor" got here were not Maimed or killed by their self declared instructors. He is going to get you all back for not letting him on the official world record! The truth is you are all unsafe, you worked hard to get him on the un- official world record the year before. Sketchy bitches.

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Am -I- legit?
I -am- largely a self-declared independent wingsuit instructor. The curriculum I teach is my own. I'm as current as any wingsuiter out there... about 2,500 flights total, I've been in virtually every significant record setting flock for the last 6 years. The list of the happy, safe and satisfied students I've taught, that list would speak for itself. By now my former students are everywhere.

I have had no student incidents of any kind, ever.

Right now the wingsuit instructional game belongs to those of us who created the wingsuit scene itself.

When the day comes where somebody finds a way to force me to jump through their hoops and tells me I'm not allowed to teach without paperwork granting me their permission to do so, I quit.
-B



Well there you have it. It is a miracle the thousands of wingsuit students before the "great spotted instructor" got here were not Maimed or killed by their self declared instructors. He is going to get you all back for not letting him on the official world record! The truth is you are all unsafe, you worked hard to get him on the un- official world record the year before. Sketchy bitches.



Cool story, bro!
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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It is a miracle the thousands of wingsuit students before the "great spotted instructor" got here were not Maimed or killed by their self declared instructors.



Some were killed. Is there an acceptable number of needless fatalities or near misses? For me the acceptable number is 0 so what has gone heretofore just wasn't good enough.

How many more fatalities do you think should be ignored before someone tries to improve the standard of instruction?

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Hmmm.
Ya know, that little not-quite-a-rant of mine was in response to Jcoolhand's call for standardization. It was not intended to be used as a vehicle for attacking Spot.

Not cool.

Right about now Spot is doing a better job of it in a more systematic way than our northeast crowd is. Just because I prefer to work in a more freelance fashion does not mean there is any sort of "us versus them" dynamic.

Have you flown with Spot? Met him? Worked with him? I have. He is a man of very strong opinions and not shy about expressing em... and also of extremely high and uncompromising integrity. Right or wrong agree or not, he calls it as he sees it regardless of the consequences.

I've tangled with him once or twice in the air in big events and he chewed me out for it. I didn't give him any bullshit back even though I had seniority and easily 2 to 3 times his experience. He was right. I'd screwed up and earned it, was flying too much like a hotshot when that shit was inappropriate. I knocked that shit off quick when he pointed it out and tuned my flying to work with him. We had a job to do.

I hold the man in the highest personal and professional respect and you just used my words to back up a rather juvenile attack on him. "Great spotted instructor" jesus christ show some fucking respect. He's got his way. I've got mine. Those ways are not in conflict.

If you're not gonna step into the ring with us and try to do a better job of it than we're doing, then at least have the dignity and manners to stop throwing peanuts. We're trying to work here.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it.
Chuck's got a WHAT?
Damn.
Probably faster than his bike.
Alright, just tell me he's got kills painted on the fender. You know... dogs, wheelchairs, marmosets, grannies, Stegodons, Yuppie Spandex Biker Clan members, the usual.

Whatever's considered good hunting when you're Chuck in a Porsche. I just get the impression the Chuck/car combo is the sort of thing you'd use to bag large multiton prehistoric mammals with lots of teeth.
Or maybe it's just me.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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Could not have said it better...!



True, but you could do it with a funny accent.;)



I want Jarno's accent, it is pretty sexy.



To be fair, Jarno is pretty sexy. If i weren't related to him, and he had boobies, i'd for sure want to sex him.
Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

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Lurch, I love you brother. And for the record, Spot, Jeff, Scott, Monkey, Jarno, Simon, and Chuck (and everyone else I missed) I love you too, but not in that way Monkey...

Thanks for refocusing us Lurch. The standardization I was talking about is a general agreement that a FCC should teach a student how to survive flying a wing suit, including but not limited to rigging and donning the kit, exiting the aircraft, navigating home, flying stable, deploying at a safe altitude, emergency pro refutes, and awareness so when they fly later on the don't hurt themselves. Then through additional coaching, improve their survivability skills and make them into safe little flockers. I think that is the crux of Spot's school in Cali, Chuck's school in raeford, and what lurch does as an independent wing suit teacher. I AM NOT calling for someone to take control, require documentation, or brand inspired vocabulary.

Simon, send 'em my way. But just like Spot, I will ground them with prejudice if they aren't experienced enough to be in the suit, the suit doesn't fit, or their ego is too big for the suit.

Justin Pabis (aka JP)
(808) 386-9916
justin.pabis@gmail.com
Currently jumping at the greatest dz (with a king air!) in the Kansas/Missouri area, SKYDIVE KANSAS CITY.

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Anyone else notice that their website has the yellow Phantom from PF's homepage right in the middle yet says 'Exclusively TonySuit' at the bottom?

:)



Hmz since that is an exact drawing of a picture I took, aren't my copyrights being violated here somehow? :S Plus James' portret rights, as it's him in the picture ;)

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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