Minimum jump number for rider of birdeo?

[monkycndo 0]

I had a conversation with someone about how many jumps someone should have to be the rider on a birdeo. For the sake of the discussion, let's say the bird is a coach or instructor and allowed to jump with pre A students.

What do you think is a reasonable jump number to take a newer jumper on a birdeo? I have my set idea, but might adjust depending on results. What do you use as a baseline?

All the poll numbers are based on USPA requirements.

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You know you want to spank it
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[voilsb 1]

My "rule of thumb" is 50 jumps, but it's much more interview-based. What's her canopy experience? How heads-up does she seem about messed up exits or landing off?

I've jumped with passengers having less than 30 jumps, and turned down passengers with a couple hundred jumps.

And although I joke about it, I don't think I'd ever take someone who doesn't at least have an A-license.

Brian

[Birdman_Mike 0]

Does Birdeo = Wingsuit Rodeo?

[SuperGirl 0]

My personal rule has been around 100 jumps. (veeeeery rare exceptions, I can think of only one... and even then, B license minimum).

I have pissed people off by turning them down, and gotten the reply "But why? my girlfriend has less jumps than me, and she just rode Purple!"
Obviously my response was "so then go ride Purple if he'll take ya!" :)

My rule may be a bit stricter than what other guys use, but then again, I'm more equal opportunity here in terms of passengers, I don't just take the tiny 90 pound hot chick, I've successfully flown rodeos with a whole bunch of bigger guys, which can make things more complicated.

A few considerations:

- altitude awareness - my passenger needs to have jumped enough to have a good sense of when the skydive is about to be over. Alti's sometimes give innaccurate readings while on the back of a wingsuiter. Sure, I'll shake em off when it's time, but the more aware they are, the better.

- experience getting back from a longer spot - passenger needs to be really heads up about deploying early if the rodeo fails early and we're still a bit far...

- flying skills - and I don't mean that in my usual dirty-minded way, I just mean knowing wtf to do with the air around them. it's so much easier when your passenger is skilled enough to get up on their feet and surf on your back, isn't it? not a requirement, but better they can freefly, the better they'll do.

- passenger needs to be competent enough to not grab onto my shit by accident and give me a premature

- awareness during spin/tumble - passenger should be able to distinguish between a slight tumble (often happens on exit and perfectly recoverable) and a more aggressive spin (fuckin let go already!). Not gonna take chances explaining the difference to a total newbie in hopes that they get it

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting. Feel free to add to the list...

Anyway, no way in hell would I ever take a pre-A student on a rodeo. Too many things that can go wrong! Why the rush, anyway? To them it'll be equally exciting to fly that first 3-way belly formation slot, everything's new at that point.
We shouldn't teach them to rush into things beyond their level, it's a bad habit to have in this sport.

[DSE 3]

Great post.
My minimum is 75 jumps or so. Coincidental this came up like this, only this morning were we having a conversation, as one of our locals wanted to take someone for their 26th skydive.

Pre-A student on a rodeo? That's just fucked up.

[mccordia 73]

I know people with 500 jumps and and no licence?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[pattersd 0]

I'm with Andreea, 100 jumps and a heads up skydiver.

[lurch 0]

My minimum is 50 but I prefer more as well, and it depends on the jumper.
Took a girl once a bit under that. Turned out her airskills and awareness were a bit raw. She could not handle being in a burble.
Soon as we got flying cleanly, she began instinctively seeking airflow, flopped her legs off one side and began doing her best to flip us upside down into a spin.

I scrunched wings, flew under her, shrugged her neatly back into the saddle, and resumed carrying her home.

She promptly flopped both legs off the other side. I repeated the midair reset and resumed flying.

She flopped off the other side again. This went on for the entire skydive while I'm thinking "Come on girl, gimme a break, I'm trying to get us home and theres nothing but trees down there, willya just stay put already!"

We didn't have far to go but she ended up landing out anyway. I was able to get us close but not directly over the DZ... impossible to cover much ground while constantly transitioning between Rodeo mode and wingsuit freefly mode every 5 seconds with her trying to yank us both all over the sky.

Then under canopy she was also inexperienced enough that she was unable to make it back from a distance everyone else managed easily because she did not appear to have any idea which way to fly. She could have made the distance easily... just a few hundred yards and she pulled at 5000, but she appeared nearly helpless under canopy the way students sometimes do, letting the canopy start carrying her away from the dz and not doing anything about it, finally flew an odd angle that was only vaguely headed towards the dz (in no wind) and ended up in a nearby field.

I've been a lot more selective about who I'll take for a rodeo ever since. Everything turned out alright, but it might not have. If they're too young, they get overload.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Titanium_Gecko 0]

Other - Not jump number dependant but that the person has FS1 in the UK, in my opinion!

Hence, A Certificate automatically AND passed the 4 point 4 way test (FS1) to allow people to jump together just doing flat. If you haven't got this sticker then you can only flat fly with a coach/instructor.

Ross

www.gathhelmets.co.uk
www.flyyourbody.com

[mccordia 73]

Here in Holland students (pre-A licence) have this thing called a in-stability test. Meaning they get shoved out the plane in asymetrical bodyposition, and have to show they can recover within a few seconds.

Anyone who can recover from an unstable exit (which is most likely what they will experience when they fall/jump off) would be fine by me.

Granted with stricter rules here, related to being allowed to jump with others, its pretty similar to having FS1 (UK Rules).
You can actually have a few 100 jumps and still dont have a licence. Lots of stuff one has to do to actually get one...

So saying A licence might suffice for one country, it may be overkill for another. Not every country has the same rules for skydiving. Especially when it comes to canopies etc. holland is very strict (though not in a bad way IMHO).

That said...Im more of a fan of filming rodeos (outside video) than I am of being the person giving someone a ride...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Grubber 0]

Just out of curiosity, how many wingsuit jumps should the bird have?

Is 50 appropriate?
100?

[mccordia 73]

If somebody needs to ask if he/she is ready, he or she should probably not do it

More serious..its hard to put solid numbers on things. Same like the minimum 200 skydives before wingsuit.
You can try and set a minimum in which people COULD have learnt/experienced enough to do okay. Its not a golden rule that says they are actually ready when they reach that number.

On rodeo exits and dismounts you can experience unstable moments, tumbles, spins etc.
A wingsuit flyers should be comfortable with flying, navigation, frontloops, backloops, barrelrolls etc. and the recovery if they go to hell...and in general be aware of whats happening. Its fun taking an exit 2,5 miles out, but spinning down with a heap of person on your back/belly/head you have to know when to call it quits and make sure both you and the rider make it home.

How much experience? Id say...use some common sense and think about the jump....than see if that person is up to the task...both rider and bird.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[The111 0]

Somewhere between 50 and 100.

In the real world, it is situation dependent. In a dropzone with very few outs, where you will be flying the rider over places he/she couldn't land comfortably, I'd almost say 100.

But rules are usually situation independent, so if a hard rule was set it should be 75 or 100 maybe.

On the other hand, I am not usually for too many rules, and a licensed skydiver is in charge of his own life. But IF a rule were instituted, that's my vote for the numbers.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[decompresion 2]

+1 on Supergirl.
Need to talk to the person ahead of time and make sure they are a heads up skydiver.
I would like to know the person or at least someone who jumps with them. I feel much better taking a freeflyer from my home DZ than someone who just walked into the hangar (unless they are a "top heavy" 90 pound chick willing to do it in a bikini and get outside video)

Or maybe they have someone vouch for them or something like that.

We could hand out "rodeo cards"

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[SuperGirl 0]

bwaaahahahhaa. love your frequent rider card.
so then some dude can be like "oh, hey, I rode andreea 10 times, how many times did you ride her?"

[BenediktDE 2]

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they are a "top heavy" 90 pound chick willing to do it in a bikini and get outside video

I think that summs up most of the rider's requirements, doesn't it?

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[Electronaut 0]

Quote

bwaaahahahhaa. love your frequent rider card.
so then some dude can be like "oh, hey, I rode andreea 10 times, how many times did you ride her?"

You make this way too easy...

[phoenixlpr 0]

A licensed skydiver or a freefall capable student if his/her instructor agrees.

I got a case when an instructor denied it. Their rules, their games.

[monkycndo 0]

Supergirl, thanks for a well thought out reply.
A birdeo is not just another jump and requires a well planned dirt dive including what to do when it goes to hell.

Now let's add some more fuel to the conversation.

What would you do if you found out a recently minted AFF-I took a jumper on a birdeo that had, let's say around 10 jumps?

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You know you want to spank it
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[DSE 3]

Quote

Now let's add some more fuel to the conversation.

What would you do if you found out a recently minted AFF-I took a jumper on a birdeo that had, let's say around 10 jumps?

Since no BSR was broken, there isn't much that *can* be done, except for the world to know the guy is one of "those guys" that shouldn't be an AFFI, and that he's one of "those guys" that should be avoided.

USPA can only keep racking up the "stupids" for so long before they'll allow us to begin helping ourselves.

[bofh 0]

The passenger needs to be able to pull, at the right altitude and stable even if they were unstable previously on the jump. I do hope that is a requirement for the A-license in all countries.

Of course the more inexperienced the passenger is, the more time is spent on briefing and talking about what to do when things don't go as planned. Just like all other skydiving activities with persons of little experience. Tell them where to find the DZ, at what height to pull if you get separated early (and what "early" means in terms of altitude), etc.

The passenger doesn't even need to be able to track before pulling so I consider it even safer than a FS-2 jump, something quite a lot of people have been doing right after getting their A-licenses. I've rarely seen any of these FS-2 groups exit the plane in a stable way but somehow they manage to pull their parachutes at the right altitude.

[SuperGirl 0]

Quote

Now let's add some more fuel to the conversation.

What would you do if you found out a recently minted AFF-I took a jumper on a birdeo that had, let's say around 10 jumps?

Technically no official rules were broken.
But I'd make pretty damn sure everyone knows about it and realizes the dangers involved.

This is often one of those "you don't know what you don't know" situations. People around may think it was okay, because they know little about wingsuits or rodeos and don't realize all the dangers involved.

Need to spread awareness among wingsuiters and non-wingsuiters alike, so that next time someone tries to pull this off, other instructors/s&ta's/people on the load or around the dz can immediately see how WRONG that is and take the dude aside and say "whoa there, buddy, are you sure you're doing this?"

At the very least I would bring it up to the S&TA/DZO etc.

This sounds like a good topic to add to our future wingsuit safety presentations at safety day, too.

Might wanna show this newly minted AFFI that picture of Jeff N with the blood eyes from the rodeo gone wrong way back when... is there an electronic version of that anywhere? The one that used to be in the old birdhouse in zhills

[decompresion 2]

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The passenger needs to be able to pull, at the right altitude and stable even if they were unstable previously on the jump. I do hope that is a requirement for the A-license in all countries.

Yes, the passenger needs to be able to pull.
But also:
-Not accidentally mess my stuff up while sitting on my rig
-know the difference between a slightly unstable exit and a horrible flat spin.
-know how to dismount without ripping up the WS (think GoPro snag)
-Be comfortable launching a rear float exit while holding a riser flap.
-Have enough experience to come back form a long spot.
and so on...
But I am being repetitive.

I am not sure if just being able to "pull stable" and at the right altitude are enough for a successful "birdeo" but it is probably enough to attempt one.

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[decompresion 2]

It does sound better than "This weekend, I rode this dude. I rode him hard"

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[travelguru 0]

My vote would be for at least 100 jumps and I would want to feel very comfortable with the person.