kallend 1,621 #26 May 16, 2011 Quote Quote I can even do 80mph at 1:1 in my "large" suit. I just wear weights. And your "large" suit is causing more turbulence for those around you than a "small" suit. Nonsense. Learn some physics.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
omnia 0 #27 May 16, 2011 Last weekend was indeed awesome. So excited for this season and plenty more flocking at SDC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #28 May 16, 2011 Quote Nonsense. Learn some physics. Nonsense. Learn to fly closer..Bigger boat, bigger bow wave. Play with ankle docks a bit more flying with big vs small suits to learn that even professors dont know everything yetJC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #29 May 16, 2011 Quote Quote Nonsense. Learn some physics. Nonsense. Learn to fly closer..Bigger boat, bigger bow wave. Play with ankle docks a bit more flying with big vs small suits to learn that even professors dont know everything yet As I said previously, learn some physics and/or aerodynamics. Try reading about wake turbulence and the factors affecting it. Hint - it's not about SIZE, it's about WEIGHT.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #30 May 16, 2011 So you're saying that driving behind a wide semi truck doesnt give of a much bigger burble than driving behind a bicycle at the same speed? Its simply a much, much larger/wider object, thus larger/wider burble.....And may not be al edumecated and stuff with my 2 years of kitchen training flipping burgers at McDonalds, but its really just about size of the suit/object. Something clearly noticable when flying close range/docked formations...bigger suits are hard to impossible to approach near the hind quarters for docks, as they have a much larger effected area by the burble/wake/turbulance of whatever you want to call it. Whatever happens inside there...and how the vortexes react...no clue.. But when it comes to docking and mega close range flying....for sure...smaller suits are a lot easier to get close to for touching and stuff JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #31 May 16, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Nonsense. Learn some physics. Nonsense. Learn to fly closer..Bigger boat, bigger bow wave. Play with ankle docks a bit more flying with big vs small suits to learn that even professors dont know everything yet As I said previously, learn some physics and/or aerodynamics. Try reading about wake turbulence and the factors affecting it. Hint - it's not about SIZE, it's about WEIGHT. And you added WEIGHT."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #32 May 16, 2011 Quote . Hint - it's not about SIZE, it's about WEIGHT. that's what I'm trying to explain to my girlfriend Reminds me of a Garfield Tshirt we offered to my uncle ... scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #33 May 16, 2011 In simpler terms... By your calculation, a 400 way FS formation doesnt give of a much larger burble than a 2 way? We may 'incorrectly' use the term wake to describe what is actually 'turbulance/burble'. But regardless, on bigger suits, its bigger...and dressing for succes is key....JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #34 May 17, 2011 QuoteSo you're saying that driving behind a wide semi truck doesnt give of a much bigger burble than driving behind a bicycle at the same speed? Inappropriate analogy for a variety of reasons. Do the physics, or read up about wake turbulence.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #35 May 17, 2011 QuoteIn simpler terms... By your calculation, a 400 way FS formation doesnt give of a much larger burble than a 2 way? We may 'incorrectly' use the term wake to describe what is actually 'turbulance/burble'. But regardless, on bigger suits, its bigger...and dressing for succes is key.... Is the 400 way heavier than the 2 way? A 400 way with a total mass of 150kg is the correct comparison.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #36 May 17, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Nonsense. Learn some physics. Nonsense. Learn to fly closer..Bigger boat, bigger bow wave. Play with ankle docks a bit more flying with big vs small suits to learn that even professors dont know everything yet As I said previously, learn some physics and/or aerodynamics. Try reading about wake turbulence and the factors affecting it. Hint - it's not about SIZE, it's about WEIGHT. And you added WEIGHT. Two skydivers of the same MASS falling at the same speed are imparting exactly the same momentum/second to the atmosphere, regardless of the size of their suits.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #37 May 17, 2011 Obviously, this is a back and forth argument that will probably have no end, but I do have a couple questions. Do you believe the form drag to be more substantial on the larger suit? Do you believe form drag has an effect on wake turbulence? I do believe a smaller suit that is being flown in a very head high (stall) position would have similar wake turbulence as a larger suit with a more head low angle of attack with the relative wind hitting almost entirely on the leading edge. But what do I know? One more... Have you ever been incorrect?Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #38 May 17, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Nonsense. Learn some physics. Nonsense. Learn to fly closer..Bigger boat, bigger bow wave. Play with ankle docks a bit more flying with big vs small suits to learn that even professors dont know everything yet As I said previously, learn some physics and/or aerodynamics. Try reading about wake turbulence and the factors affecting it. Hint - it's not about SIZE, it's about WEIGHT. And you added WEIGHT. Two skydivers of the same MASS falling at the same speed are imparting exactly the same momentum/second to the atmosphere, regardless of the size of their suits. The same skydiver who adds MASS (and WEIGHT) will impart more momentum/second to the atmosphere. PS: Regardless, a larger suit may produce the same amount of turbulence as a smaller suit but it will spread the turbulence over a larger area."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #39 May 17, 2011 QuotePS: Regardless, a larger suit may produce the same amount of turbulence as a smaller suit but it will spread the turbulence over a larger area. As well as the wings with a large/lower wingroot 'guiding/deflecting' the relative wind outward more towards where people are flying (when close). It may not all be the right language for the more tech-savy people, but for sure...its an effect thats there...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #40 May 17, 2011 Quote Have you ever been incorrect? Very rarely when discussing physics with non physicists. Don't confuse drag coefficients, area, and total drag, which appears to be what you, Butters and Jarno are doing. Two skydivers of the same mass falling at the same speed impart IDENTICAL momentum to the atmosphere (in the form of wake) regardless of the size of their suits.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #41 May 17, 2011 wouldn't the "shape" of the wake change with different shape of the wing ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #42 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuote Have you ever been incorrect? Very rarely when discussing physics with non physicists. Don't confuse drag coefficients, area, and total drag, which appears to be what you, Butters and Jarno are doing. Two skydivers of the same mass falling at the same speed impart IDENTICAL momentum to the atmosphere (in the form of wake) regardless of the size of their suits. Blah, blah, blah ... have you read anything I've written? You added mass (and weight) and thus imparted more momentum to the atmosphere (in the form of wake). Where am I wrong? Also, the wake from a larger suit will be different than the wake from a smaller suit. Where am I wrong? You can now go back to your blah, blah, blah ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #43 May 17, 2011 Quotewouldn't the "shape" of the wake change with different shape of the wing ? No doubt, but the total disturbance will be the same. My exit mass, including rig and 5kg of lead, is 81kg. Falling at a steady fall rate of 30m/sec I impart approx. 810 N.sec of momentum to the atmosphere each second and impart 24,300 joules of energy to the atmosphere. Anyone with an exit weight more than 81kg (and that would be most guys) makes more disturbance than me regardless of what suit they are wearing. Quantum mechanics not required, Newton's 2nd and 3rd laws are all that's needed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #44 May 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Have you ever been incorrect? Very rarely when discussing physics with non physicists. Don't confuse drag coefficients, area, and total drag, which appears to be what you, Butters and Jarno are doing. Two skydivers of the same mass falling at the same speed impart IDENTICAL momentum to the atmosphere (in the form of wake) regardless of the size of their suits. Blah, blah, blah ... have you read anything I've written? .. When you pretended to know some physics and wrote "And your "large" suit is causing more turbulence for those around you than a "small" suit." it became apparent that you are misinformed. Your statement was simply incorrect. You don't even know the size of my suit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #45 May 17, 2011 so you mean that if you were wearing a smaller suit without the lead, you would cause less disturbance to our atmosphere (and global warming ) ?? so much for ecology scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #46 May 17, 2011 Quote so you mean that if you were wearing a smaller suit without the lead, you would cause less disturbance to our atmosphere (and global warming ) ?? so much for ecology No, the environmental cost of manufacturing the fabric and sewing a new suit would negate the effectA bigger saving would accrue if every fat bastard weighing more than me (145 pounds or 66kg) would lose the fat. How heavy are you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #47 May 17, 2011 Quote***wouldn't the "shape" of the wake change with different shape of the wing ? No doubt So...if we skip all the 'Id rather go into a gazillion difficult explanations rather than acknowledge what everyone else is talking about, and talk about the practical side of things instead of techno-mumbo jumbo that I think is incorrect' you're actually agreeing... Skipping the tech talk, the 'different oriented/directed' wake of a bigger wingsuit for sure influences those flying close. Especially during tight/docked flying, a smaller suit flown at a higher performance level feeds those around the person a lot 'cleaner' air when close. Regardless if the cause is direction, velocity, size or girth..... Shame the tech always seems to take center stage, while the practical side of things and how it applies to what we do is skimmed or even skipped....JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #48 May 17, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Have you ever been incorrect? Very rarely when discussing physics with non physicists. Don't confuse drag coefficients, area, and total drag, which appears to be what you, Butters and Jarno are doing. Two skydivers of the same mass falling at the same speed impart IDENTICAL momentum to the atmosphere (in the form of wake) regardless of the size of their suits. Blah, blah, blah ... have you read anything I've written? .. When you pretended to know some physics and wrote "And your "large" suit is causing more turbulence for those around you than a "small" suit." it became apparent that you are misinformed. Your statement was simply incorrect. You don't even know the size of my suit. You couldn't understand my point because the terms weren't correct? I thought you were smart. The fact is that adding weight (which you did) increases turbulence (according to you) and wearing a larger suit (which you did) will have a larger (in regards to area) wake ... PS: I don't need to know the size of your suit, I just need to know the model to know that there are smaller suits. Also, I know that a larger suit weighs more than a smaller suit so it does cause more turbulence ... how do your words taste? That is if you can taste anything other than bitter."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #49 May 17, 2011 Quote How heavy are you? exit weight 86kg, without lead but I might be taller too.... and your lead is a source of pollution too I put the natural peanut butter/nutella/double creme belt scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #50 May 17, 2011 Quote I know that a larger suit weighs more than a smaller suit And he wears lead with it to fly it in a flock...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
