0
skydiverek

Venom from PF is here!

Recommended Posts

my mistake for assuming. I saw Tony, hands on suit, camera around neck...but i wasn't able to get over to the booth because I was doing interviews.

I'm the one that told Jarno photos were taken. There were at least two instances where the suit was closely looked at.
Back to my original point; a high tide floats all boats, but the bullshit about PF copying TS and TS copying TS really oughtta slow down at some point. Chuck Priest invented a LOT of the innovations that some manufacturers claim to have created, but no one is reading him having kittens about being copied.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Nice Blade you're flying there....real curious who you think designed that one



i think i can answer that. my guess is it was designed by the company you bitched about when i met you at the wings over marl competition 2010. you told me about the cutaway system that can kill you that they created.... and if i remember right that conversation was some hours before you told me and the girl you measured about the problems that tony has in your opinion with the "friction drag" on his suits when people try to flock with wingsuits from tonysuits. remember?

just to make it clear, i think pf makes really good products. but the badmouthing about birdman and tonysuits on dz´s is really uncool.

a great example for marketing within our small community:

airtec: they never talk about anything else than their product. they don´t need to talk about their competitors...they just talk about the strengh of their cypres.... i think thats the way.....

and what concerns this thread.... jeff just asked if thats the same system that tony used and then dse said that tony copied what he saw on pia....but he apologized so let´s give it a rest....
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I never bitched about any company at Marl.
The girl I measured was 1.58 cm, and 48 kg and had issues with forward speed in flocks. I talked about drag and wingloading. And looking at Tony's line-up at the time, there wasnt a small suit for girls of that size if you wanted an intermediate model.
It wasnt any negative BS, but a simple conversation about wingloading.

And a mention of cutaway handels coming out of suits in the plane, after a BM redesign. Where I thought, if it isnt broken, dont fix it. I never once mentioned 'a cutaway system that can kill you'
I did mention a legwing zipper that had fabric getting caught between it, that opened completely on one side during a back to belly transition, sending me into a severe spin at 4000 ft. After asking for a simple snap on all suits, and after hearing mulitple people with the same issue.

To me, that was a safety issue worth mentioning. And was an answer to the question I got asked, which was: why did you leave BM.
Not because of money (I never got payd a single penny, and never once got a free suit). Simply because I didnt like the products anymore, and saw safety issues.

Issues I do want people to be informed about, without bad mouthing. Similar to the sleeve system not being functional in 100% of the situations. Hence the actual cutaway still being there on the Venom.
As lifting knees under a spinning reserve or base canopy aint gonna happen.

I talk a lot, and talk a lot about aspects of products that I like, and issues I see that I dislike. Regardless of brand or model.
If you listen in on other people talking, try and understand why something is being said, instead of thinking sales are always the incentive.
Ive seen plenty of low experience people put in way to big a wingsuit in an effort to make a sale.

Thats the exact reason there is a list of warnings on the PF website for the Venom. Informing people. Im not badmouthing PF on that product page. Its information. And ignoring issues without our sport because its 'bad marketing' in your views, is something that can hurt you or kill you if you keep looking away.

Like you say 'if I remember right'. Maybe ask the people I was actually talking with, who (unlike you) got the full conversation, Instead of the negative marketing story you post here.

And compliments on your posts in this thread. Two big attacks on PF and myself, and than ending with 'so lets give it a rest'.
Try and look at the world through a less angry pair of glasses...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I see no rules broken. It seems people want it both ways. They want to have the banter of the small community but don't like it when things get petty (not directing this at you Andreea).
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Nice Blade you're flying there....real curious who you think designed that one



i think i can answer that. my guess is it was designed by the company you bitched about when i met you at the wings over marl competition 2010. you told me about the cutaway system that can kill you that they created.... and if i remember right that conversation was some hours before you told me and the girl you measured about the problems that tony has in your opinion with the "friction drag" on his suits when people try to flock with wingsuits from tonysuits. remember?

just to make it clear, i think pf makes really good products. but the badmouthing about birdman and tonysuits on dz´s is really uncool.

a great example for marketing within our small community:

airtec: they never talk about anything else than their product. they don´t need to talk about their competitors...they just talk about the strengh of their cypres.... i think thats the way.....

and what concerns this thread.... jeff just asked if thats the same system that tony used and then dse said that tony copied what he saw on pia....but he apologized so let´s give it a rest....


Ha! If I'm brand A, and I'm directly competing against brand B, I'm damn sure going to be pointing out the weaknesses in my competitors' products, as well as the strengths of mine. If the competitor doesn't like this, then maybe they should address the weaknesses of their products...
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

And was an answer to the question I got asked, which was: why did you leave BM.



i didn´t ask you that. i just told you that i normaly fly a blade two and that i heard you were birdman before. and then you told me what you had to say about birdman... i didn´t ask for that.

Quote

Maybe ask the people I was actually talking with, who (unlike you) got the full conversation, Instead of the negative marketing story you post here.



since i was one of the three involved in the conversation who should i ask? i am confused..... you explained to me and to me alone about some sort of material drag that causes problems. for my profession i studied aerodynamics and i had no idea what you were talking about so i asked if you mean "friction drag" as one of the 4 kinds of drags excisting which have all different behaviours depending on speed. so you continued to explain to me and to me alone (the girl was just listening at that moment) what you think about that problematic material.
in the end i still didn´t understand the aerodynamic laws behind your theory but i left with the feeling that tonysuit is not good for flocking if you are not a giant and very heavy.

i think no one is angry here or are you? if so don´t take it to seriously and relax. yes after dse said what he said about tonys foto session i made the comparison with the 3 ring system....and then i answered your question refeering to a conversation we had in marl.
now you are talking about the big attacks from me on pf and you. maybe you should read the thread again. a lot of people have stated their opinion not more not less, some seem to like tonysuits, some pf, some brought in the copying thing.... some accused tony directly of "industrial espionage" i said i don´t like the marketing that i experienced from you.... so if you want what i wrote getting deleted.... i don´t mind....

let me just tell you one thing, i just returned from a business trip in turkmenistan a country where internet is hardly anywhere available and most websites and all forums are censored and shut down.... we have the freedom of speech here.... let´s use it and accept the opinion of others even though we might not like it B|


blue skies to everybody, wether you are ts or pf B|B|
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I left with the feeling that tonysuit is not good for flocking if you are not a giant and very heavy



You left with that impression. Not words I spoke.
Wear a tight freefly suit from slick fabric vs a baggy one from rough fabric.

People strugling to catch up with flocks in suits that are oversized (and for their tiny posture) a very rough material, was the subject of the conversation. And its not my weird theory. Its the same reason you often see speed-skydivers in latex suits, and different type of fabrics with different drag characteristics on certain skydiving suits or piece of gear.
And of course aspects such a pitch angle, thickness of the wing etc also all come into play. But like I mentined wingloading is the subject, and not marketing. The same reason I mostly fly a 'tiny' shadow.

Turning that into some 'anti brand sentiments' or 'only for people with obesitas' for sure isnt what I was talking about. Its the exact same story I'd tell you if you where a small guy and doubting between getting a Ghost3 or Phantom and getting it from Balloon Zero-P or the rougher Parapak.

And all this is aside of certain aspects of safety features (regardless of brand) working or not working. But thats stuff I discuss regardless of brand or loyalty. Similar to stories on cars, dogs, ponies, butters and lube.

I agree that freedome of speech is an awesome thing. But just because you can say anything, doesnt always mean one should...as way to often good conversations turn into poor mud slinging competitions.

I dont want anything you wrote deleted for what you wrote in reply to me. But I do think its poor taste to use the thread in which the release of a new product by PF is announced as your podium. Start a new thread called "why Jarno is an incredible ass" and lets get that to fester and rot with nasty remarks and whitty comments. Thats why I asked for cleaning up. It seemed to be more about bitching just to bitch, than it actually being related or important to this thread.

But like you say. Flying is flying. And blue skies to everyone. Be it in a vingate old-timer Birdman suit, FlyYourBody, IntrudAir, PF, JiiWings, EG-Suit or Tonysuit...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I see no rules broken. It seems people want it both ways. They want to have the banter of the small community but don't like it when things get petty (not directing this at you Andreea).



I concur, which is why I hadn't intervened in this thread. As dead as the horse is, I do find it quite disappointing that it inevitably always erodes into this type of a discussion in the forum. One would think that "we" as a collective community could move past this petty bullshit by now, sadly, it just isn't so.[:/]
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

But I do think its poor taste to use the thread in which the release of a new product by PF is announced as your podium.



since i wrote my first post after this comment i wonder:

Quote


The safety sleeve TS has now (post seeing the PF sleeve at PIA) or the one TS had before PIA?



was that still part of the new pf product announcement? i guess not...

and talking about a podium....there is only one podium for me and hopefully for all of us...and that is blue and we see it when we look above .... none of the great visionary wingsuiters like patrick, jari, loic, tony and robert had their podium here on the internet and posted thousands of posts.


so let´s all remember the quote on the shirt you can buy in every gear shop.... and let´s all "skydive more, bitch (and hang out in the internet) less" ;)


over and out, have a good night everyone :)
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I see no rules broken. It seems people want it both ways. They want to have the banter of the small community but don't like it when things get petty (not directing this at you Andreea).



I concur, which is why I hadn't intervened in this thread. As dead as the horse is, I do find it quite disappointing that it inevitably always erodes into this type of a discussion in the forum. One would think that "we" as a collective community could move past this petty bullshit by now, sadly, it just isn't so.[:/]






This is exactly why most people I know in the WS community cant be bothered reading / writing / posting / giving a shit about this website anymore. No matter what the threads initial subject, almost all threads nowadays degenerate into this brand war BS. Its soooooo demoralizing. I read but dont post much, and as time goes by I read less and less as this same BS shows up time and time again. I would say the WS forum has gone from being useful and informative ( when I registered a decade ago ) to the same few people saying the same brand war shite over and over as each new product comes out. I simply do not see this in any other part of the DZ.com forums. how on earth do we look to wannabe WS pilots who need encouragement and information? I'll say it : stupid childish bickering idiots. If your new, you simply get " dont jump blah blah blah" from some skygod which is why I see less and less newbies posting, even though I know more and more people are jumping WS. Most just ask the right questions at the DZ, join my free stepping stone program using atmo - PF tracking suit - prodigy - phantom and get on with it. I have trained several over the last few years who read this forum and couldnt believe how insular and self obsessed the community is... one minute I'm an experienced WS instructor ( Chucky Blue trained my in 2004 ) Next minute my card has been pulled as has everyone else's so we can all re-train under some new BS rules. No one around here cares about this sort of thing, on my home DZ the CI knows me well and allows me to do what i've been doing for the last 5 years : train new WS pilots. Nobody really cares about Brand A vs Brand B......or any new must have certification course. all it does is make us look like pricks.

rant over

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in reply to "......I do find it quite disappointing that it inevitably always erodes into this type of a discussion in the forum. One would think that "we" as a collective community could move past this petty bullshit by now, sadly, it just isn't so. "
.......................................................

....but we're getting there.
All this them v's us stuff is just growing pains in perhaps the oldest airsport in existence (medieval tower jumpers were arguably the first wingsuiters).

Once the current adolescent hero-worship do-do is over this sport will get on with what it does best.
....just having fun flying around in the sky.

As for stealing other peoples ideas ... credit where credit's due...keeping in mind that .. "There's nothing new under the sun."

Creativity and growth stagnates when people try and claim an idea as their own , selfishly keeping it to themselves.
Our beautiful sport could easily stagnate if selfish people take it over for their own self grandiosment .

Genuinely creative people are too busy being creative to attach themselves to one single idea. Seeing other people run off with one of your ideas , pretending its theirs ? ...it's all just part of the entertainment to a creative person.
You get to see the creativity thief wallowing in your idea but having to stay trapped there as they don't have the follow through ideas for themselves.
This could be the fate of any wingsuit manufacturer that continually relies on borrowing other peoples ideas. (BM ?)

There's usually too many more ideas to get on with to bother chasing the thief....especially when you stole the thing in the first place.


IMHO PF and TS would make a good partnership instead of being competitors , no losers only winners .
You can keep the puke-worthy brand-war hero crap just give us better , cheaper suits and hurry up about it !;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You can keep the puke-worthy brand-war hero crap just give us better , cheaper suits and hurry up about it !;)



They continue to give us better. As far as cheaper ... compare a wingsuit to a canopy. They're not that cheap but they're not that expensive either.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

They continue to give us better. As far as cheaper ... compare a wingsuit to a canopy. They're not that cheap but they're not that expensive either.

and now the bigger suits have almost the same surface area as the smaller canopies :D
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

They continue to give us better. As far as cheaper ... compare a wingsuit to a canopy. They're not that cheap but they're not that expensive either.

and now the bigger suits have almost the same surface area as the smaller canopies :D


now, LANDING them.. is a whole 'nother thing.. :P
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ion reply to "They're not that cheap but they're not that expensive either. "

......................................

You're right they do represent fair value for money.
Cheaper than an AAD and not compulsory.

looks like some-one else out there is having wingsuit war dreams.:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
for gods sake ... i stopped logging into this forum for exactly this reason ... 10m later when i saw a new suit which looks good i come and check it out and BANG same shit - mine yours mine yours ,,,

i guess what we need are moderators that block and kill all post relating to these silly piss fights ... someone please step up.

Robi - your new suit looks great and I hope to fly it soon well done to you and the team - i see some good innovations there

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

i guess what we need are moderators that block and kill all post relating to these silly piss fights




"Careful what you ask for" is an old saying. I have in the past shut shit down hard and fast. The problem is that people get butt hurt, bottom lips start sticking out, teeth gnashing and hair pulling starts, people take their ball and go home, and people stop posting all together. It also tears threads up when we have to remove/hide posts in large numbers, as is often he case when the BS starts. It is far easier for us to shut a post down then it is to clean it up, but people get upset. In this case, I'd have to go back to where the BS started and weed through all the posts and edit out the crap, which would in effect remove a couple of pages from this thread and in the process and of course people would start jumping up and down and start screaming censorship, end of the world, etc.

The flip side of not editing it out and letting it roll, is that everyone can now see who "those people" are that constantly bring this BS to the forum and perpetuate it ad nauseum.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I have in the past shut shit down hard and fast.



Didnt those mostly seem to be on your own threads?:P;)

Joking aside...moderation is always a delicate balance. You dont want to have things go to shit, but you also dont want to turn into China, and turn moderation into censorship..

That said, its easy to sit and point fingers. But some of the people throwing poop here and there are the same people that are out there actively flying and doing a lot of other stuff that makes the sport and this forum a good place to learn as well.

I dont think there is a single thread on this forum (not now, not 8 years ago) that doesnt have some degree of thread drift. Its sad to often see it go the same direction again and again. But similar to 'do I REALLY need 200 jumps, he had 85 and did okay' I dont think its the last we will ever see of it here. Much like music and fashion...its an ever repeating cycle..

Enjoy it for the good things, and ignore the bad ones..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

i guess what we need are moderators that block and kill all post relating to these silly piss fights




"Careful what you ask for" is an old saying. I have in the past shut shit down hard and fast. The problem is that people get butt hurt, bottom lips start sticking out, teeth gnashing and hair pulling starts, people take their ball and go home, and people stop posting all together. It also tears threads up when we have to remove/hide posts in large numbers, as is often he case when the BS starts. It is far easier for us to shut a post down then it is to clean it up, but people get upset. In this case, I'd have to go back to where the BS started and weed through all the posts and edit out the crap, which would in effect remove a couple of pages from this thread and in the process and of course people would start jumping up and down and start screaming censorship, end of the world, etc.

The flip side of not editing it out and letting it roll, is that everyone can now see who "those people" are that constantly bring this BS to the forum and perpetuate it ad nauseum.




Funny old thing, I rarely post ever on here for the very reason that there is so much rubbish already on here. The brand wars is one thing the BS ego's that feel the need to share their wisdom which to be quite frank is often either obvious and if its not obvious your in the wrong sport let alone discipline; or in the tragic cases entirely misguided or just plain incorrect.

Their are some little gems of insight that occasionally come through but their is way too much dick waving on here and people who seem to need to respond to anything and everything as they are somehow the fountain of all knowledge when in reality they have a strong merchant banker (slang work it out) trend.

So yes a leaner forum would be welcome instead of having to wade through all the BS and bitching etc but hey their are a lot of ego's and they like to position themselves as the be all and end all. At the end of the days those who can get on with it and dont need to sing about it and advise every man and his dog.;)
Dont just talk about it, Do it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0