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What would *you* do?

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This is really a question for DZO's but curious about this audience's feedback.

A foreigner shows up on your DZ with an S-bird, a logbook signed by a "WSI" and 157 jumps. His home county's rules on wingsuiting asks for 500 jumps.

Although it's not part of the considerations, he also has a 12' bridle, never jumped.

Do you let him on your plane or not?


Depends on the plane too. I would not risk a low tail, but tail gate would be OK.;)


Your negative attitude makes me sick.


Did you pick up on the sarcasm on that one.

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Well, it doesn't say:

"be the holder of a current USPA license or its
accepted foreign equivalent
"

Maybe it should, as it does in other parts of the SIM.



While I see the point you're trying to make, it doesn't make sense to me.
I would believe that most everyone knows you need a USPA license to jump at a USPA dropzone. I can't imagine a DZO not knowing that the USPA standard is a reciprocal agreement with FAI, that most FAI license holders wouldn't know this, and that it's an issue worth the time it would take to think about it.
It's common knowledge. And that said, there are many FAI dropzones that won't accept a USPA license or rating, just as APF and other non-USPA foreign DZ's don't accept USPA. You have to join.
The DZ that doesn't require some sort of organization/membership license is pretty rare, and they wouldn't fall into this topic anyway.

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What does the type of suit and length of bridle have to do with it? It's just as much against the BSR if he has a Classic II and a 7' bridle.



Going 5mph over the speed limit is also against the law, but not likely to get you pulled over.

Your point is valid, but the counterpoint is that it's much easier to be the bad cop when the person in question is miles beyond the limit.



A S-Bird is isn't over any limit. The limitation is the number of jumps, not the suit. The BSR violation is exactly the same (43 jumps too few) regardless of the suit or bridle.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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really interesting threat that reminds me of two occasions within the last 12 months where i thought about very similar things.
first thing was not wingsuit related, happened on the mountain gravity boogie in switzerland last summer where a (good looking) girl with 64 jumps was asked by one of the load organizers to join a "mountain swooping" jump (flying under canopy close to the high mountains and landing out (landing out was planned and necessary cause at this mountain range was no regular landing area) the boogie organizers asked for a minimum of 100 jumps for that kind of jump and the lo knew this girl had less but still talked her into it and she joined.
when i later said that in my opinion this was very unprofessional many jumpers who were on this boogie told me that in skydiving everybody is responsible for himself and that it is not the responsibility of the organizers to prevent something like that....
i was surprised by so many people having that opinion cause i deeply believe that whenever someone makes money with something like that that he has the responsibility to check whom he is selling this to.
so to answer your question, yes this guy had no business on your plane in my opinion. and main reason for that is the jump number. and it´s the officals of that dz who have to make shure this 200 jump rule is followed.

the other ocassion was a wingsuit threeway with two other guys in their stealth 2 suits i had recently. by the way they talked i expected them to be ok flyers. it ended up to be a bandito jump (this is how i call jumps where no one sticks to the plan or people turn out to be completly skill free in the air after telling big stories on the ground and which you better hadn´t joined) one of them really scared me and i had to pop up twice to avoid a collision cause he would always move in with high speed unable to stop his movement in time. on the ground i was really pissed and while packing one of the guys came to me with beer and thanked me for joining on his 200th jump. couldn´t believe what i just heard and i asked for the jump number of the other guy that nearly took me out twice. but this guy had 800 jumps (30 in a wingsuit)

so thinking about it the guy who just made his 200th jump shouldn´t have been on that load with no matter what suit he flew. but what about the other guy, he had the jump number but apparently he wasn´t ready for his stealth2. by the 200 jump rule he earned his right to jump it....but i woudn´t fly with him again.

i think there are no easy answers to the whole subject, and i can only use my right as a customer to refuse to be on the same loads or jumps as people that are in my opinion unsafe. on the other hand i also expect dz officials to increase safety by refusing to sell jump tickets to people who not meet requirements that apply in the country they intend to jump in.

in my opinion the responsibilities of dz officials doesn´t end after having sold the ticket at manifest....thats why i think it was a good call not to let this guy jump in a wingsuit on your shift.
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

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This.
;)B|

Even at DZ's I don't work at.
I intrude. Seeing someone in a flying air mattress AND doing what appears to be inexperienced wingie practice and review on the ground?
I introduce myself.
I piss people off sometimes too.
:P

This is but one reason why I have backed away from wingsuits to be quite honest.
Safety and sensibility didn't seem to be the norm.
I like being alive and un-maimed.

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A S-Bird is isn't over any limit.



Sure it is. Not all lines in the sand ("limits") are drawn by the USPA. Someone looking to enforce safety at a DZ has to consider ALL the aspects.

The situation as presented:
A guy with 150 jumps is crossing 3 lines:
1) A wingsuit under 200 skydives (USPA line)
2) S-Bird under 50 wingsuit jumps (wingsuit mfr line)
3) Bridle of silly length (common sense line)

Now, a guy with 195 skydives attempting to jump a Classic with reasonable gear setup? That is an entirely different story. He may be "over the limit," but not nearly as far as the jumper presented here. That said... all the details presented in the OP are relevant.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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A S-Bird is isn't over any limit.



Sure it is. Not all lines in the sand ("limits") are drawn by the USPA. Someone looking to enforce safety at a DZ has to consider ALL the aspects.

The situation as presented:
A guy with 150 jumps is crossing 3 lines:
1) A wingsuit under 200 skydives (USPA line)
2) S-Bird under 50 wingsuit jumps (wingsuit mfr line)




You assume too much. He may have made 50 S-Bird jumps for all we know. Maybe he's done a lot of WS BASE in a S-Bird. The OP said nothing about how many WS jumps he has, and BASE wouldn't be in his skydiving log book.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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A S-Bird is isn't over any limit.



Sure it is. Not all lines in the sand ("limits") are drawn by the USPA. Someone looking to enforce safety at a DZ has to consider ALL the aspects.

The situation as presented:
A guy with 150 jumps is crossing 3 lines:
1) A wingsuit under 200 skydives (USPA line)
2) S-Bird under 50 wingsuit jumps (wingsuit mfr line)




You assume too much. He may have made 50 S-Bird jumps for all we know. Maybe he's done a lot of WS BASE in a S-Bird. The OP said nothing about how many WS jumps he has, and BASE wouldn't be in his skydiving log book.



No idea of how many BASE jumps he has, nor do I care how many WS jujmps he has.
A-Objects don't have relative wind of 80kts or faster (saw one "hot shit" base jumper unable to exit an aircraft very well with their Xbird, after bragging about their 500 BASE jumps).

B-USPA BSR is 200 jumps.
Was an easy, easy call to make. Especially when the bridle was seen laid out on a packing mat.

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What was your concern regarding the biriddle length?




You wouldn't be concerned about a 12' bridle?

[edit to add photo]
Here is what can happen with a bridle that is too lengthy. It's not all that can happen, but is one thing that can easily happen. I wish we'd gotten video of this one, because it was so strange (only 2 days ago)

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Do I get to be a hot shit base jumper, or is my shit of normal temperature and consistency? Wingsuiting out of airplanes is hard!



Charley...you're just too damn cool to be hot. It's that beguiling smile of yours. :P At least that's what the ladies in Hawaii were sayin...
And until you're a national media star...you can't be hot-"shit."

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Someone with lower experience, who doesn't pull immediately but hangs on to the bridle in a bit of a hesitant pull, can have a whole lot of bridle catch on gear as it flaps behind him.
Most likely catching one of his 5 Gopro's...:P

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Also very curious about the bridle length concern, if 9' is better than 6', why is 12' not better than 9' for reducing the risk of getting caught in the burble? Could that photo DSE posted not also happen to a 6' or 9' bridle flopping around in the burble? and just for curiosity sake what is the recommended bridle length for base w/s?
@ piisfish .... what is a PCA?
From a noob perspective, to answer the OP question....I think he should definitely NOT be allowed on the plane....200 jump min, means just that! If you start to bend or break the rules, where does it stop? 185.....165......
ORGASMO RODRIGUEZ
If your gunna be dumb
You better be tough

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A 9' bridle with a hesitant pull/release could not wrap around one of his 5 Go Pro's ? less likely yes, but wouldn't the reduced risk of being caught in the burble offset this concern? only asking.... not suggesting, trying to learn.....have been reading the forum on PC in tow mal scenario ..chop then reserve? or straight to reserve?...has me trying to wrap my head around it all.
ORGASMO RODRIGUEZ
If your gunna be dumb
You better be tough

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Also very curious about the bridle length concern, if 9' is better than 6', why is 12' not better than 9' for reducing the risk of getting caught in the burble? Could that photo DSE posted not also happen to a 6' or 9' bridle flopping around in the burble? and just for curiosity sake what is the recommended bridle length for base w/s?
@ piisfish .... what is a PCA?
From a noob perspective, to answer the OP question....I think he should definitely NOT be allowed on the plane....200 jump min, means just that! If you start to bend or break the rules, where does it stop? 185.....165......



~PCA="Pilot Chute Assist." A static line for BASE jumpers.

A long bridle has its own drag. If the bridle length has enough drag, it may hinder the PC from accomplishing its goal; extracting the pin.
I believe anything longer than 6-7, but not longer than say ...9 (depending on PC size) should be fine. If you were jumping very large suits all the time, or don't mind changing out PC's, perhaps a longer bridle would be fine, but I'd probably go to a larger PC before going to a longer bridle.

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12' bridle can also lead to PC entangled in the brake lines and possible chop.

James, I can't understand why a longer bridle would tend to entangle the PC and the brakes.
I am a partisan of "longer" bridles (like 9ft) and "bigger" PC's, say bigger than the ridiculously short and small PC's you can sometimes find on skydiving gear, specially when considering the sometimes heavier canopies they have to lift.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Also very curious about the bridle length concern, if 9' is better than 6', why is 12' not better than 9' for reducing the risk of getting caught in the burble?



If you could continuously apply that logic, than a 300' bridle would be even better.

There is obviously a point at which the bridle is long enough to clear the burble on current suits, and a point at which it is so long that it creates its own problems. Current wisdom, based on experience, puts those points at 9 and 12 feet, roughly. Nothing's precise here, though. Sure there's a risk at "only" 9 feet of bridle problems, and sure there's a risk at 9 feet that it's not long enough. But 9 feet seems to be the best length for minimizing all risks.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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