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DSE

Venom, V4, PIA and Wingsuits

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it was always x-birds on the podium.



Because thats what the best 4 pilots flew those years....;)
And actually Lutz pretty much handed everyone their ass when the first incarnation of the Stealth2 (Stealth WoM) flew there.
Last year Harry Kloska was the first person to fly the Venom prototype at the competition in Gransee, and immidiately set the 4th highest score for time and 5th for distance ever in the whole comp circuit. And he isnt that skinny a guy even.

Every single one of these results is more related to pilot skill than anything else. And depending on the suits they choose to fly, these results can stay like this or severly mix up. I have no doubt any of the flyers wouldnt score in the same top 3 if they switched to any other suit.

There is a lot to be said for these competitions, but its mostly a comparison of athletes. And depending on the suits they show up with, the results show a certain suit as the best choice.

Gransee and Marl both pretty much share the same flyers every year. Its logical the podium is 'always the same'

Look at the results from the Hungarian competition from the last years.
2010> 1st Stealth2, 2nd V3, 3rd Xbird
2009> 1st Stealth2, 2nd V3, 3rd Birdman S8
2008> 1st SM1, 2nd Stealth1, 3rd Blade
2007> 1st BM S3S, 2nd BM S3S, 3rd Blade

Paints a whole other picture. And with Intrudair also becoming a bigger and bigger player with suits that seem to mirror many design aspects from all kinds of brands....no doubt we'll see those results mixed up even more in the future.
There are a lot of conclussions to be drawn from competitions, but the ones mentioned above for sure arent the correct ones...

It always ends with certain people only showing their 'copy!copy!' posts with negativity attitude towards one party....

Just enjoy the fact that several people design wonderfull suits to fly. And look at them up close to see what they are actually capable of and made from...B|
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I heard there is a "so large it's not stealth anymore" suit somewhere...



Now who would show you such a thing?;):P
Even funnier when you think thats something from 1,5 years ago...pre-dating the actual copy its baby brother is now accused of being haha :D
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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yes harry had that stealth competition as they called it at that time and he did really good, came really close to the results that were archieved in x birds. he is not skinny but he´s not as heavy as tony though ;-)

i havn´t felt any negative attitude in this thread yet and speaking for me i respect phoenix fly a lot. as i said the rivalry between this companys is good for the customers. everyone wants to make the best suit out there.

but you cannot curse someone for being reminded of the x-bird looking at the shape of the new pf suit can you?
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

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We unfortunately will have to take your word. As I not prepared to carbon date pictures/drawing. But there is a difference between speaking and doing.

Tony did make them sold them with the wing design over arms zippers before the rest.

Copying and using each others designs for inspiration is great it gives us skydivers alot more choice, and choice is good. So I not saying copying is bad and not knocking PF. It's just funny that the suits being copied most is Tony's suits. (Pictures or idea or the not can't claim it, if you didn't patent it or produce it first).

I do however hate people who do the brand war thing give each suit it's dues, some suits are better for different people.

I am also not fond of negative sales, telling others what's wrong with others suits instead of telling me what's good about their suits. Thus sell your suit in it's uniqueness and without knocking the opposition.

Ciao
_______________________________________
You are unique, just like everybody else ...

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it was always x-birds on the podium.



Because thats what the best 4 pilots flew those years....;)
And actually Lutz pretty much handed everyone their ass when the first incarnation of the Stealth2 (Stealth WoM) flew there.
Last year Harry Kloska was the first person to fly the Venom prototype at the competition in Gransee, and immidiately set the 4th highest score for time and 5th for distance ever in the whole comp circuit. And he isnt that skinny a guy even.

Every single one of these results is more related to pilot skill than anything else. And depending on the suits they choose to fly, these results can stay like this or severly mix up. I have no doubt any of the flyers wouldnt score in the same top 3 if they switched to any other suit.

There is a lot to be said for these competitions, but its mostly a comparison of athletes. And depending on the suits they show up with, the results show a certain suit as the best choice.

Gransee and Marl both pretty much share the same flyers every year. Its logical the podium is 'always the same'

Look at the results from the Hungarian competition from the last years.
2010> 1st Stealth2, 2nd V3, 3rd Xbird
2009> 1st Stealth2, 2nd V3, 3rd Birdman S8
2008> 1st SM1, 2nd Stealth1, 3rd Blade
2007> 1st BM S3S, 2nd BM S3S, 3rd Blade

Paints a whole other picture. And with Intrudair also becoming a bigger and bigger player with suits that seem to mirror many design aspects from all kinds of brands....no doubt we'll see those results mixed up even more in the future.
There are a lot of conclussions to be drawn from competitions, but the ones mentioned above for sure arent the correct ones...

It always ends with certain people only showing their 'copy!copy!' posts with negativity attitude towards one party....

Just enjoy the fact that several people design wonderfull suits to fly. And look at them up close to see what they are actually capable of and made from...B|


What I do find funny Jarno is how everything Bird-man was the best when they paid the bills and how PF is now the only thing since they're paying the bills.

Nothing wrong with supporting your brand but giving credit to other manufactures for the good products show maturity and confidence in yours.
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Thus sell your suit in it's uniqueness and without knocking the opposition.



Nobody knocked the opposition....a thread of PF products debuted turned into negative BS about copying by people prefering another brand/product. And when people spout a lot of uninformed personal prefernces as incorrect facts/statements...yes..I respond.

Design influences are abundant. Looking at things very crude would be saying 'all anyone ever did was upscale patricks degayardons design'

When it comes to these type of 'carpet' suits....The Stealth WoM, and several newer prototype suits (which Ill gladly show you in person, and have done so with several people) show similar design characteristics, and those date back to 2008 and 2009 already.
No carbon dating needed. Just showing pictures of the boogies and events the first time the suit flew is enough to date it back without any doubt.

Again....draw a human figure and draw some big wings around it. See how many variatios you can come up with. Many people judge these new suits simply by their outline.
Having seen both suits up close, and flown them both (which I think few people giving their oppinions here can actually say) you'll see that both are actually quite different suits, with different design ideas at their origin.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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What I do find funny Jarno is how everything Bird-man was the best



You'll than be surprised to find that Birdman never payd a single bill for me...I started shifting toward PF products more and more when I was with BM, and choose to leave the company and team. And started flying PF without any payd bills being part of that.
The discount I get on sales (which i could use to 'pay bills') I give away to those who buy through me, and my 'bills' are 100% payd by the other stuff I do the other 60 hours of the week.

I have a full time job, and unlike some of the full-time flyers out there, dont need payd suits or expensive sponsorships to choose what I want to fly. I can take a lot of comments and critisism...but again...dont turn unrelated subjects into negative marketing...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Jesus Christ on a popsicle stick.
All of the suits out there have been pretty good for/with each other.
Anyone who feels that one manufacturer hasn't liberally "been inspired" by one manufacturer or another is a moronic twatmuppet.

Robi, Chuck, Zun, Giselle, Loic and Tony have all brought really great things to the wingsuiting world.
There are only so many angles you can put around the human body and so many different ways to support, inflate, deflate, and fold up those angles.

Why is it that some of you have to take what's a pretty nice offering to the wingsuit world and turn it into a "my cock was longer before your cock" conversation?
Why is it that the XS changed so drastically when Tony's #1 guy was caught redhanded taking photos of a prototype Vampire during the RedBull training in Sebastian? Why is it that you give credit to one manufacturer for over-shoulder zips when neither manufacturer is taking credit (because that came from someone else)? Or the FnD event where Robi was heard calling out to Tony "Should I just sent you the drawings/plans?" And then they both had a laugh about it. If the guys that design these suits can laugh at themselves, why can't you?
Many innovations come from "man on the street" folks and not the manufacturers themselves.
Who implements what doesn't mean they invented it. Doesn't mean they're not giving credit. And it doesn't mean they're stealing.
It just means they're moving forward with their own improvements on existing features and new products.

Coming from a guy who has four Birdman suits, 13 TonySuits, one Sfly, and roughly 25 PF suits in my stable...this shit is funny, tragic, and pathetic all in the same breath.
They're just wingsuits.
If you want something to bitch about, bitch about the politics and backroom tom-fuckery that "charities" are pulling on our community. Bitch about "record" events that put 30-jump wingsuiters into a position to damage someone's jaw, camera, helmet due to lack of skill. Bitch about safety issues.
Bitch about stuff that actually matters.

It's PIA. It's new tools in our sport. It's fun. It's more opportunity to improve what we do.

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i agree with riaan "facts".... tony invented the x, tony sold it. nobody denies that.and all that has been said is that the new design reminds a lot of people of the x-bird.
jarno that doesn´t mean that i don´t believe that you have drawn a lot of pictures and showed them to people.

nobody said something negative about the new toys, maybe they inspire someone someday too ?!?

let´s not get to sensitive here. as dse said, copying, or "getting inspired" by products that are already out there is what creates new products and thats a good thing. everybody has done that and if someone didn´t he wouldn´t have been long in the business.
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

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Brand bashing, or "who copied whom" brings me to some thoughts and concepts:
1. The hundred thousands: Take the car you drive now and why you bought it. We know how to drive, we have spent thousands of hours in different models before we took our decision. We can do research and even ask if the oil consumption of my VW Tiguan Diesel of 1l on 30Kkm is above average or normal.
2. The thousands: Take Kiteboarding. The sport has really grown in the past ten years, I got in 6 years ago and I know that the design to change the angle of attack and usable range various by brand and really makes a difference in how I can perform. I have a choice of more than 5 significant brands with different product lines. However I only tried 3 so far with their products in different life cycles. I do not have the time to try everything available but there is a small number of kites and control bars I can compare and conclude what is best for me. If I want to I can read about 3 periodical magazines and join more than 5 internet sites to get information. Not to mention the buddies I meet when I go kitesurfing to the famous spots all over the world.
3. The hundreds: And that is what we are with WS probably these days. Privileged people like DSE, Jarno have several years of experience, tried most of the suits available from maybe 3 major brands. Joe Average or John Beginner have 20-200 jumps, 1-5 hours of flight time and have just gotten used to the P2, T-Bird after having grown out the Intro quickly. They are maybe struggling with improving their rate of on-heading openings / line twists, flocking and aerobatic skills.

BUT: If Robi tells me, that on the new Venom they made the line from the arm wing towards the body more curved and convex than the rather straight line on the X-Bird because of the smoother aileron impact, I am all sold. And if Tony tells me, that the T-Bird makes it easier for me to have on-heading openings because of the arm zippers and design elements unique to it, I am all sold too.

SOLUTIONS: At this point in WS development and personal stage I prefer to go with the ones who are open for discussions, provide quality that I perceive as durable and design that I feel I can grow with. And most of all: They provide a solution over all with services available to get into it and grow with WS.

EXPERIENCE: Is probably a huge driver for performance in different disciplines of WS. So just getting used to P or T might make a big difference.

And last but not least: We all have different body shapes we want to fly with. In terms of length, arm length, weight and ratio of upper body vs legs for instance.

Now how stupid and tired was I to even write this down :-)

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Thank goodness. It wouldn't be a thread about new products without the obligatory brand wars :)
Wingsuits all have wings, does that mean everything is a rip off of Icarus?



Daedalus is the genius who designed and built the wings.

Icarus was the fool who flew them outside their design limits.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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The more I read the w/s forum threads, the more I wonder if I really have the minimum "requirements" to even jump a wing suit in the same sky as some "heroes" on here. I don't see the point in the "my dick is bigger than yours" debates, nor do I have an opinion on which designer is better or copied most, nor do I care to.
I have jumped different brands and different models, and I could care less who came out with x or y design/feature first, seriously what does it matter as long as the manufacturers are trying to improve the design/features and build quality and give us some newer/better toys to fly.
I will never be "cool" enough or "hot shit" enough to be given a wing suit or sponsored by any manufacturer, but I wish the ones who are, or think they are, would see that we are all here for the same reason, to have fun and do something very very cool with others who are like minded, regardless of the logo on their suit.
I am in the market to buy a new suit very soon, and have been lucky enough to have contacted one of the "cool" people for advice/feedback and she was gracious enough to educate me without any brand bias BS.
Until then maybe I will just stay super uncool and jump suits designed and manufactured by a really cool 14 y/o kid who loves the sport as much as I do. B|:D
Not directed at anyone in particular, just needed to vent my frustration at the negativity felt on here.This sport is far too amazing to possibly turn others off due to it. :)

ORGASMO RODRIGUEZ
If your gunna be dumb
You better be tough

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If you want something to bitch about, bitch about the politics and backroom tom-fuckery that "charities" are pulling on our community. Bitch about "record" events that put 30-jump wingsuiters into a position to damage someone's jaw, camera, helmet due to lack of skill.



wow that sounds really scary and dangerous, i am glad i have never been on such an event! luckily there are organizers like shorb and callantine from the flockuniversity or raise the sky for example where you don´t have to worry about something like that.
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

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hey orgasmo, i really loved your post! some things you said i couldn´t have said better!

*** The more I read the w/s forum threads, the more I wonder if I really have the minimum "requirements" to even jump a wing suit in the same sky as some "heroes" on here.***

some people really wanna scare the shit out of people that are interessted in beginning to wingsuit. they try to make wingsuiting look like rocket science and that you need to take a lot of expensive coaching to be safe. (best if you buy that coaching with these guys of course) wingsuiting is quite easy and a lot of fun. you´ll be a really good wingsuiter faster, than a really good free flyer or swooper.

of course it absolutly makes sense to have the experience of 200 regular skydives before you put on a wingsuit, i really think that is a great rule but from there on....use common sense (which you should have from the experience of 200 jumps, get coaching if you want, listen to good people (wether they have a self made coach rating or not) and enjoy flying. buy the suit that you like wether it´s because you think it really is the best or just because you think it has the nicest colours.

hey it´s only wingsuiting we are talking about!
You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

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use common sense (which you should have from the experience of 200 jumps, get coaching if you want, listen to good people (wether they have a self made coach rating or not) and enjoy flying. buy the suit that you like wether it´s because you think it really is the best or just because you think it has the nicest colours. !

you sound like good people, do you think I'll be OK with my Venom (or XXLBird or whatever else) for a 1st flight ? The color of the suit is awesome :)
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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