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HGpilot

Hang gliding question.

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in reply to "Hello everyone . I have been watching some youtube videos of wing suit flying. I must say it sure looks like fun.
I have been wondering what you all think about hang gliding ?

Seems that most HG pilots think you guys are crazy,witch is kinda ironic since most folks that don't fly think we are crazy. "

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I think hang gliding is a flight phenomenon but can be a difficult one to learn.

I found the hang gliders controls non-intuitive and the craft itself basically unstable.
In comparison I found wingsuits to be more intuitive to fly and naturally stable.

During HG training I was the over-controlling student from hell.
One thing I learnt during my HG student training . ..you can have a nasty crash and still walk away uninjured.
I proved it several times.

After several relatively minor crashes, including a wheels up landing on rocks , I culminated my hang gliding career by almost managing to barrel roll my instructors HG from 60' breaking the spar and other bits.


I wish HGing had been more natural for me cause it looks like one of the best value airsports for time in the sky ... and you don't even need to be crazy.

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Wouldn't spend the time or money? My flyin' ass!!!!!!!!!



I would if I didn't have to work so much, as I said I think HG is cool but I have to prioritize! If a friend had said "Hey let's go try HG" instead of a tandem jump I would probably be HG today but it wasn't the case. Now I want to to start PG so I can get a speedwing, but I will probably wait a bit so I can focus on what I started (WingSuit)

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Trust me, I understand the time/money thing. BTW skydiving is the most money hungry sport but no aircraft = no wingsuit in general. Most flying for the buck (for me) is PG. Hopefully a speedwing will appease my addiction to flying fast and low.
Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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in reply to "Flying a wing suit must be amazing. I am envious . "
..............................

Get yeself to a DZ ?
After 200 ordinary skydives you can experience WS for real.
100 flights later you could be launching from 3000'+ in the backwoods of Norway or Croatia or somewhere.

Most of us just couldn't stop ourselves...can you?

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Do i need to tell you that you shouldn't do it as you may end up w broken neck , Brest cage, internal injuries, etc...
And this is all after fall from 1m without any horizontal speed, woithout any WS :))



I did this once when I was really drunk. Jumped up as high as I could on the spot and did a stable hard-arch until impact from about 1.5m. I credit the softness of my friend's lawn for my lack of injuries (it did hurt a lot though).

I hope this data can contribute in some way to modern wingsuit development.

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So you're suggesting we get drunk and fly wingsuits?:P



Just saying if you exit from 1.5m you should be OK to land it, if there's no forward speed. For forward speed I estimate the compensation to be 4 shots of Jim Beam prior to exit for every 5km/hr forward to reduce injury.

(seriously it hurt. Don't try this.)

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The sushi is fantastic. Have a little hole in the wall joint where two people can gut out on realy good sushi for $40 including tip. And the WS/PG/HG is pretty good too.



Sounds good. How is the weather? :D. I am stuck with the below. The only way this could be funnier in a twisted way is if the forecast was for rain next weekend as well. :D

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/77583

Paul, get any Uni?


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I got lazy and it was raining buckets so I didn't dive, if I had gone the urchins both green and red are guaranteed 10 minutes from home. We may have a new DZ 10 minutes from my house this year too. Two paragliding sites each about 1/2 hour drive, world class BASE two hours, killer snowboarding <2 hours etc. If you're interested in that kind of stuff. B| Unfortunately the weather is currently total garbage. [:/]
Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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Nice post Skwrl
You raise some good points and discuss them well
However I disagree with some of your conclusions.

in reply to "You do realize why we all disagree with you on this, right Giselle? "
...............................................

You don't speak for all of us.
I don't disagree with gisellemartins statement "soon wingsuits will be big enough to be able to fly up in thermals and ridge soaring give it 5-10 years time."

In fact I would go further and say it is already possible even with current suit design.
You might have to do it in the Patagonian mountains or somewhere with strong updraughts (eg under/in a thunderhead , but it is a feasible if very dangerous possibility.
Of course where there are strong uppies there are also strong downers.
A good steady updraught and yep its totally doable. Condors, pebbles, rocks ,foliage , branches and other loose detritus does it whenever the wind blows strong enough...so WS's could too.
I'm a bit surprised no-ones tried it somewhere.
...oh that's right we'd have to ask permission from TS or PF:S

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in reply to "But believe me - if something approaching your design actually could work, Tony/Jeff and/or Robi would have snatched up the approach and made the Condor, the Q-Bird, or whatever the Hell they would call it. "
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You could be right here.
It seems very likely that current WS manufacturers would indeed 'snatch up" other peoples ideas especially as modern WS's seem to be very much more of the same lately.
I'm expecting the BM Classic to be reinvented anytime soon it was a great suit. :D
Are those guys/companies you mention just copying each other lately or what.

Not taking anything away from their magnificent achievements but ...please.... the people you mention didn't invent WS's they just commercialised them.
As wingsuiters we all help fund WS development by buying manufacturers products.
We should also support potential designers not ridicule them.
If we all have to rely on such a small number of people for innovation in the Wsing world then it's gunna be very much more of the same until some new blood shakes up the entrenched mindset or 'they' snatch up others ideas..



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in reply to "Induced drag is a hell of a strain.

Don't believe me? Check out this guy: http://www.parapente-saintevictoire.com/...x/rudolf boehlen.jpg. His name was Rudolf Boehlen. .............. The wing handled, by all accounts, very badly - the induced drag generally pinned his arms closed - or open but one at a time - resulting in crazy spins and erratic falling. Not surprisingly, he died as a result of gear problems.
.................................................................


Induced drag on a flappy over sized fabric wing is a problem.
Its my guess that Rudolfs wings could only have worked if they had been locked open somehow.
A well designed aerofoil has surprisingly little induced drag depending on several variables. eg thickness, camber , angle of incidence, degree of washout, l.e.profile .
Its more the inefficiencies in the wings that induced the uncontrollable drag that contributed to Rudolfs death. eg flapping fabric, uneven surfaces, .
His design also has what looks like a built -in leverage disadvantage due to the placement of the handles.
If his design had a leverage advantage he may have been able to overcome the induced drag and open his wings instead of dying.
More likely his design really needed non-fabric wings then the induced drag would have been much more controllable.
Pity he didn't test it in a wind tunnel first.

............................................................
in reply to "Now, your reaction to Boehlen may be "but now we have space age polymer whatsit fabric thingies that are way lighter!". But the problem isn't the standing weight of the wing. The problem (as I mentioned before) is the induced drag created by it.
...........................................................


Once again the induced drag in a well designed carbon-fibre wing would be way lower than that scary looking flappy canvas wing of Rudolf Boehlen.

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in reply to "A related problem is that we would need to redesign the parachute harness system. We would need a spring loaded pilot chute design, since the traditional bottom of container deployment system would not be reachable. There are again reasons why people don't like spring loaded pilot chutes. If you look into the history of that, you'll find out "
................................................

Every skydive reserve system except for the Aussie Woomera (which has a hand deploy reserve) relies on spring loaded pilot chutes.
Modern spring loaded pc's use top grade spring metals with excellent launch platforms to give a pc deployment superior in most circumstances to ANY hand deployed system .
I'd be quite happy to have such a deployment system on a main parachute as well as my reserve.
And it s no biggie to put a ripcord system on a main . Most experienced riggers cut their teeth with ripcorded rigs.
Its perhaps bad memories from student training that have created the myth that there is something wrong with spring loaded pc's.

..................................................
in reply to " Another problem is that you won't (easily) be able to exit from an aircraft - at least an aircraft other than a tailgate aircraft. Several people (Leo Valentin being the most famous) died using rigid wing designs that either didn't quite get out the door safely (Valentin's broke when it hit the door frame and it killed him) or were designed to "snap open" and the the predictable went wrong.

.................................

Have you watched Yves Rossi exit from a Porter with his quad jet wings.?
He gets his contraption out the relatively small door of the Porter and flying consistently without resorting to a tail gate aircraft.
Admittedly it doesn't look easy.
You can bet your bottom dollar he would prefer to use a Skyvan or a Casa if he had easy access to one.
In the US there are many DZ's with tailgate aircraft. Travelling to one to fly a high-performance non-fabric wingsuit would be a pleasure.


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in reply to "It's the wrong tool for the job. . It also won't look like your albatross design (research hang glider shapes to learn why). It would be more of a delta wing.
.......................................

Only the early hang gliders had true delta wings.
As HG's were developed the wings were stretched out and now are only mildly swept not delta wings any-more.
Most designs have refined trailing edges with relatively complicated profiles not simple delta shapes. In general the higher the aspect ratio the better the glide and hang gliders have made full use of this princliple.

Your post does voice legitimate concerns.
It is my belief that some of these commonly held concerns may be unfounded.

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......................................................................
in reply to "A related problem is that we would need to redesign the parachute harness system. We would need a spring loaded pilot chute design, since the traditional bottom of container deployment system would not be reachable.

Have you watched Yves Rossi exit from a Porter with his quad jet wings.?
He gets his contraption out the relatively small door of the Porter and flying consistently without resorting to a tail gate aircraft.

Actually Yves' wing was designed to fit inside the Porter (cabin and door size were part of the equation of the size+shape) as it is the most common jumpplane around in Switzerland and Europe, plus you can find them almost anywhere in the world.

He also uses a springloaded drogue chute.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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"soon wingsuits will be big enough to be able to fly up in thermals and ridge soaring give it 5-10 years time."

In fact I would go further and say it is already possible even with current suit design.
You might have to do it in the Patagonian mountains or somewhere with strong updraughts (eg under/in a thunderhead , but it is a feasible if very dangerous possibility.
Of course where there are strong uppies there are also strong downers.
A good steady updraught and yep its totally doable. Condors, pebbles, rocks ,foliage , branches and other loose detritus does it whenever the wind blows strong enough...so WS's could too.



Right. And when a tornado in Kansas picks a farmer up and deposits him in Oz... does that also count as soaring?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Wingsuits aren't rigid.

The biggest problem here isn't that you think a wingsuit can soar, it's that you don't recognize the definition of a wingsuit.



So the Vampire4 the X-bird the new Fusion all of them are not wingsuits?

Because they got rigid extensions frames on their wings.

Now probably you gonna say " ah but it is just small"

Everything is relative, so if the frame from the Vampire3 was a bit longer that connected in the back of the pilot the vampire3 would not be a wingsuit anymore but a hanglider?

A football ball is oval, a soccer ball is round but they still both balls.

Paragliders now have rigid fibers inside them, and they still pragliders!

Please open your mind people...



What are you people calling a wing suit?

Giselle:

The addition of rigid materials in all the current winguits(V4, X-Bird, Fusion) only increases strain on the human frame. All the structural forces have to be supported by the human body when flying any of these suits.

A hang glider has a separate rigid structure that handles all the aerodynamic forces. The human hanging under it handles none of the aerodynamic forces.

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In the US there are many DZ's with tailgate aircraft. Travelling to one to fly a high-performance non-fabric wingsuit would be a pleasure.



Trae: I would not to call a non-fabric contraption a wing suit. It is well known that using rigid airfoils(Skyray) has produced better L/D than the best wingsuits of today.

If rigid wings had to be used, I would want to go hang gliding or gliding in one of those 18m wingspan beauties.

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It seems very likely that current WS manufacturers would indeed 'snatch up" other peoples ideas especially as modern WS's seem to be very much more of the same lately.
I'm expecting the BM Classic to be reinvented anytime soon it was a great suit. Laugh
Are those guys/companies you mention just copying each other lately or what.

Not taking anything away from their magnificent achievements but ...please.... the people you mention didn't invent WS's they just commercialised them.
As wingsuiters we all help fund WS development by buying manufacturers products.
We should also support potential designers not ridicule them.
If we all have to rely on such a small number of people for innovation in the Wsing world then it's gunna be very much more of the same until some new blood shakes up the entrenched mindset or 'they' snatch up others ideas..



I am sure the wingsuit community would support(with everyone ordering one) any designer that can successfully design and manufacture a wingsuit that performs 5-10% better than the existing designs.

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A well designed aerofoil has surprisingly little induced drag depending on several variables. eg thickness, camber , angle of incidence, degree of washout, l.e.profile . Pity he didn't test it in a wind tunnel first.



Washout? Seriously!! It can be done to some extent in practice on today's suits. This can be seen in videos and on posts made here by people that have figured it out from experience.

On fabric wings, the technology does not exist to allow the designer to have strict control on the run-time shape of the wing and also allow the human flying it maximum ease of flight. Trying to implement wing washout without pilot input is not possible on soft fabric wings.

The span of a wing suit is roughly 6ft, without a sizable wingtip, the area of the suit goes down drastically. How much washout would drastically reduce the induced drag of a low aspect ratio wing? Angle of incidence, Camber, thickness etc. parameters have all been used in real world implementations since 2004. Angle of incidence has seen both sides of zero.

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I'm expecting the BM Classic to be reinvented anytime soon it was a great suit. Laugh



Is that is all you can see of the ideas that went into wingsuit development since the Classic?


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Nice post Skwrl
You raise some good points and discuss them well
However I disagree with some of your conclusions.

in reply to "You do realize why we all disagree with you on this, right Giselle? "
...............................................

You don't speak for all of us.
I don't disagree with gisellemartins statement "soon wingsuits will be big enough to be able to fly up in thermals and ridge soaring give it 5-10 years time."

In fact I would go further and say it is already possible even with current suit design.
You might have to do it in the Patagonian mountains or somewhere with strong updraughts (eg under/in a thunderhead , but it is a feasible if very dangerous possibility.
Of course where there are strong uppies there are also strong downers.
A good steady updraught and yep its totally doable. Condors, pebbles, rocks ,foliage , branches and other loose detritus does it whenever the wind blows strong enough...so WS's could too.
I'm a bit surprised no-ones tried it somewhere.
...oh that's right we'd have to ask permission from TS or PF:S



Hi Trae, thanks for the support and dont let me being crucified, called a money an idiot a dream etc, just by believing in something they dont...

Poor Galileo and others brilliant minds that were put the death for saying that the Earth was not flat but round and that the sun does not circle around Earth but the Earth around the sun.

Seems to be a culture between most wingsuiters to ridiculirize new ideas, new people, and glorify a couple of designers.

In any other area of free flight aviation PG, HG, SailPlane, any new ideas and new people are welcomed, even when the idea is not working properly yet, other pilots give support and contribute with to see if that stuff could work.

I was perplexed with the reaction I have from a few members of this forum when I first mention the possibility of soar on a wingsuit one day.

Seems wingsuiters when they are learning, they are teached it, "look avoid any person who say we can fly" "call them stupid" " they dont know what they are talking about" " we already created what is possible" "nothing gonna work ok? understand" then they became like a wall, talk to them about new ideas is like talk to a wall.

After my first topic on this forum, a couple of manufactures contacted me, and I contacted a few also, and after a long conversation with a top manufacture wingsuit designer, I was perplexed how he dont know much about aerodynamics and airfoils in non powered aircraft's , he base his wingsuits on powered planes, when is clearly not the best approach, planes have engines therefore their wings are designed for this purpose, non powered airfoils need to be designed in a completely different way to manage more performance and less drag using the gravity for the best glide and less sink rate.

But as he is a nice guy, and already manage to reach what we have today, eve applying his ideas of powered aircrafts on winguits( and his wingsuits are the best ones at the moment I must admit) so I did not went against his ideas.

But as I mentioned many times, with a few ideas wingsuit could fly much more, with much more perfomance and soar easily, the problem is, the ones with great ideas and courage to make it, dont have the same tools the ones who have a manufacture of wingsuits with all the tools to creat something absolutely new and better.

Even if a unknown person come up with an Amazing project and when it works, rapidly big wingsuits company will copy and start selling it, and as they are bigger companies, with much more tools to work on and a bunch of people following everything they say, the person who created the great idea dont stand a chance.

Well thats how everything works anyway, on cars, planes, paragliders, etc...

But hey, nothing is lost yet, we at least can try...

Sorry about the English, it is not my first language.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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But as I mentioned many times, with a few ideas wingsuit could fly much more, with much more perfomance and soar easily



OK, great, we get that. You have been pushing this agenda long enough that you should have something to show for it.

How about a skydiving license, so you can learn to safely operate a parachute, and eventaully jump a wingsuit, do you have one of those?

Maybe I'm mistaken, and you have started jumping. How far off are you from jumping a wingsuit? Do have plans to take a first flight course? Are you in touch with any instructors, and if so, who?

I guess you might surprise us all, and have been jumping a wingsuit for months now. That said, what sort of work have you done in persuit of your goal? Nobody expects you to suit up and soar with your first prototype, but how about a 'proof of concept' model, that can improve the performance of wingsuit by 5% or 10%, just a drop in the bucket comapred to the quantum leap you propose will materialize in the next ten years?

See the point? You have done nothing but argue with some people over the internet. Nothing. The people you're arguing with are the ones who are creating and advancing the modern wingsuit by 'gasp' ACTUALLY JUMPING THEM! Oh the horror of actaully doing someting in real life! THE HORROR!

So far you have no jumps, no wingsuit, no prototype, and you claim to be a 23 year old fashion model/biologist/aeronautical engineer/airplane builder/paraglider pilot/whatever you else you wish you were.

So far the only thing I feel is genuine is that you're the classic internet 'expert' on anything and everything under the sun, I think the technical term is 'mall ninja', look it up and reference the mirror for pics.

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Oh the horror of actaully doing someting in real life! THE HORROR!

So far you have no jumps, no wingsuit, no prototype, and you claim to be a 23 year old fashion model/biologist/aeronautical engineer/airplane builder/paraglider pilot/whatever you else you wish you were.

So far the only thing I feel is genuine is that you're the classic internet 'expert' on anything and everything under the sun, I think the technical term is 'mall ninja', look it up and reference the mirror for pics.




Develepka,

You seems very sure that I haven't done anything yet. I will not comment on it.

Secondly, I'm not an airplane builder or aeronautical engineer, and the others things you mention, oh well, I dont wish to be, I'm Actually am.

Anyway, try to exchange new ideas on here were not a good idea, and all this conversation has been far from constructive and friendly.

I will drop it, and Trae, I suggest you to do the same, until you or anyone have something completely concrete to show and brake the ignorance of some, (if is possible to brake) you will always be ridicularized

All the best, and amazing flights in 2011 for all of us!

Giselle
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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After my first topic on this forum, a couple of manufactures contacted me, and I contacted a few also, and after a long conversation with a top manufacture wingsuit designer, I was perplexed how he dont know much about aerodynamics and airfoils in non powered aircraft's (...)



I just must add that the top wingsuit designer, the one who actually made first working prototypes available to people to jump and not kill themselves in 1999 I believe under the name Birdman was Robert Pecnik, the same one you ridiculed here a few posts above (aka robibird)

I wish you good luck and looking forward to your prototypes and future attempts.

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thanks for the support and dont let me being crucified, called a money an idiot a dream etc, just by believing in something they dont...



Its funny you criticize ANYONE who doesnt agree with your ideas, yet cant accept the simple fact that others may have different ideas than yours.

You critique people calling your dream a dream. Again..untill and IF its ever realised...thats all it is...you can protest that view all you want...but it wont change the fact that its only a dream. And you're clearly not interested in listening to people who do have more insight into the matter.

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I was perplexed with the reaction I have from a few members of this forum when I first mention the possibility of soar on a wingsuit one day.



You have a certain dream, and other have other views. Whats to be perplexed about. No amount of dreaming you will do, wil turn it into a reality, and untill it IS a reality, YOU are the one who's being very closed-minded for not allowing any other oppinions and options besides your own views.

Dream all you want, but if you are not looking for honest views from other people. Why post it on a public forum?

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Seems wingsuiters when they are learning, they are teached it, "look avoid any person who say we can fly"



You generalize a lot...and from this statement, its quite clear you have no idea about what it actually is we do...
Flying is the basis of what we do. Not what we try to avoid. Im sorry if that doesnt live up to your dreams, but it sure does to everyone who's out there activly doing it, and furthering the dicipline with practical designs that get made.

You spout a lot of critique on wingsuit manufacturers and people that dont agree. NOTHING stops you from buying the materials and investing TIME to create this incredible flying idea of yours. Many have done so before you, and even current day manufacturers started as people building their own personal suit.

There are many people with similar ideas like yours. But most scream about a performance thats possible, yet never go beyond that screaming.

Fly your body..build something...looking forward to the results..

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nothing is lost yet, we at least can try...



Hope you do....many people talk the talk...not everyone walks the walk..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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*** Mccordia wrote:
Its funny you criticize ANYONE who doesnt agree with your ideas, yet cant accept the simple fact that others may have different ideas than yours.***

Wait a minute, I NEVER criticize anyone on here, thats exactly the opposite, you are the one doing that. I said I answered our fellow HGpilot that I believe that wingsuit will be able to soar one day, AND YOU called me a monkey, idiot, twilight dream and many other names. YOU ARE the one who criticize people on here, you did with me and with Trae.

When you and Lurch said wingsuit will never be able to soar, I respected it, I did not call you any disrespectful names. it is your opnion and there is nothing I can do about it.

I was not rude with Robibird, what I said to him I would say to anyone with the same attitude as him, its not because he is a winsuit designer that he deserve more respect that someone who is not.

We were talking about our believes and non believes what wingsuit will soar one day, nothing to do with wingsuit landing an from all sudden robibird come affirming that I said wingsuit will land, and call an ambulance? I NEVER said that! when landing was a word not mentioned until that time on our entire conversation, check his message and take our own conclusions.


Ultimately I never criticize wingsuit designers, completely in the other way around. I think they are awsome people, because they recreated the "wing dream" something that everyone had gave up on before.

What I said is that 1 who I spoke to, is aproaching wingsuit design as a powered aircraft, and in my opnion is not the best way to optmise perfomance.

Example: He based his wingsuits on motorized planes, spitfires etc.

Motorized planes have the end of the wings on square shape, it generate enourmous amout of vortex witch eat big part of the performance of the aircraft, but as airplanes have big engines to move them forward, having a square wing doesnt matter much for them. but for non powered flight it is very important.

From an albatroz to a sailplane, from a paraglider to a hanglider and anything else who dont have engines to power them, they have the end of their wings on a pointed shape, this is for a reason. Pointed wings, generate more lift, less drag and much less vortex in another words much more performance, and again our lovely wingsuit designer is basing his wingsuits on that way, motorized planes, witch I think is not the best way to approach non powered aircraft design. I still did not say anything to him about it, because I respect very much their work.

I Designed a prototype with pointed wings and sent to one of the manufactures, to built the proto and with only 1 proto made, he said it was very good and very smooth in flight, but he could not hold his arms open for long on that wingsuit. (yes we have a muscle problem, we all know that) but I believe that there many solutions for this problem, and soon someone will come with it.

Last thing, I never said I will design wingsuit, I dont have time for it, also I dont have the right stitching machines and all the tools for it.

All I said is that I believe that wingsuit will be big enough to Soar one day.

Now please respect my opnion and stop saying things I did not say.

Thank You
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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You talk a lot..write a lot...and make little sense...B|
I hope the picture in your avater isnt the design direction or idea...as that suggests some severe research on your behalf into pectoral muscles birds have, which we dont have...

Again...I hope to someday see your words transformed into reality...most likely eathbound realities...but thats my word against yours...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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