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kitof1976

Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory?

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Any employee of the manufacturer can do major repairs while working for the facility, with or without a riggers certificate. ( go figure!)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

... provided that all repairs pass a TSO inspector.

***

I was refering to Non-TSO'd canopies, but you are correct regarding Reserve canopies.
Even still, you are correct in respect that the work has to pass some type of inspection at the facility whether it be a certificated canopy or not.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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I agree. Part 65, Suprart F says:



That is the old FAR, it has been updated and now states:

"(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;

(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;

(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or

(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter."

Derek

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I agree. Part 65, Suprart F says:



That is the old FAR, it has been updated and now states:

"(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
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Appropriate here means a Master Rigger's Certificate







(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;

You may pack and maintain under a Senior rigger.

Pack, maintain, and alter if working under a Master rigger

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(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or




Packing may be under both a Master or Senior Rigger


***
(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter." ***

For Tandem Instructors. Here if the Tandem instructor packs one parachute to jump, then jumps another that a tandem instructor without a riggers certificate happened to pack, that jump would be illegal.


As you can now see, each has it's own limitations.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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That is not how the FAR is written. Pack, maintain, or alter apply to 1 through 4. This is the same as:

§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.
(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.

Act or attempt to act apply to 1 through 4. You can't say act applies to 1 and 2 and attempt to act applies to 2 through 4. Act or attempt to act apply to 1 through for just like pack, maintain, or alter applies to 1 through 4.

Derek

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So now bringing a canopy back to factory spec is Altering and not maintaining?



Bringing a canopy back to factory spec may or may not be a senior rigger task. Instead of looking at the work as an alteration, look at it as a repair: major (one which if improperly done would affect airworthiness) or a minor one (not major).

Replacing the lower brake lines on a Precision main (involving just a larks-head, no sewing) would be minor, replacing a cell would be major, and in between these extremes are shades of grey.

Mark

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That is not how the FAR is written. Pack, maintain, or alter apply to 1 through 4. This is the same as:

§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.
(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.

Act or attempt to act apply to 1 through 4. You can't say act applies to 1 and 2 and attempt to act applies to 2 through 4. Act or attempt to act apply to 1 through for just like pack, maintain, or alter applies to 1 through 4.

Derek

***


Apples and oranges......

So, you believe that a tandem master, can alter a parachute as long as he/she is the next to jump it.....
Come on Derek!!!!!!!!!!!
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Apples and oranges......



No, FAR's and FAR's. How it is written is the same way, 1 through 4 apply. You cannot apply pack, maintain and alter arbitrarily as you see fit. The way the FAR is written, pack, maintain, and alter apply to 1 through 4, same as the other FAR.

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So, you believe that a tandem master, can alter a parachute as long as he/she is the next to jump it.....
Come on Derek!!!!!!!!!!!



Changing how the canopy is packed is considered an alteration and I think someone can change how the canopy is packed if they are jumping it next. Also, what is right may not be how the FAR is written, but that doesn't change what the FAR says.

Just because someone with zero jumps can jump with someone else without any jumps without any altimeters, AAD's, goggles, RSL's, helmets, etc with Velocitys for mains and PD-99's for reserves legally doesn;t make it right.

I'm not arguing right and wrong, I'm arguing what the FAR's say.

Derek

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This is an issue we are dealing with at work with 911 and VoIP telephone industry. The legal department will come out with the "legal interpretation" then hand it off to the business. Then ethical standards have to be put to it, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's ethical. FARs seems the same way, I mean look at the Mirage / PD113 issue. Just because ethically it is a safe configuration doesn't mean it's a legal configuration. Such as just because it’s legal for a tandem master to do an alteration doesn’t mean it’s ethical.
Fly it like you stole it!

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I'm not arguing right and wrong, I'm arguing what the FAR's say.


That is your mis-interpretation of the FAR's.

I train riggers about everyday and how contact with the FAA about every two weeks if not more.

When you took your written test, you had at least (3) three quections pertaining to the FAR's and what your legal limitations were... who can do what and when. These questions are put there so that you do not have any doubts about who, what and when.

Look it up .. you must have missed forgot them, one or the other!!

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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I train riggers about everyday and how contact with the FAA about every two weeks if not more.



Which does us no good since an Inspector cannot issue a Legal Interpretation.

Hopefully the FAA will respond soon to my 2nd, recent request. With a Legal Intepretation from the FAA, there will be no question as to who can re-line or alter a main canopy. Without it, we are getting no where.

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When you took your written test, you had at least (3) three quections pertaining to the FAR's and what your legal limitations were... who can do what and when. These questions are put there so that you do not have any doubts about who, what and when.



The FAR's have changed since I took the written. I have looked up all the answers to the current test, they are on my web site. Besides, test questions do not trump the FAR's.

65.111 could have been written like this:

No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person— (1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;

No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;

No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or

No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.


It wasn't because it is repetative. I don't see how it can be read any other way. 1 through 4 apply to pack, maintain, and alter. Right or wrong, that is how the FAR is written.

Another way of looking at it is what if the FAA wanted to write that these 4 groups of people could pack, maintain, and alter main parachutes;

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;
(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or
(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.


How would the FAA have written the FAR? Exactly like they wrote it.

How would they have written the FAR if their intent was as you interpret it? Probably something very close to:

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person has a Master Rigger's Certificate issued under this subpart or is under the supervision of a Master Parachute Rigger.

(c) No person may pack or maintain any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger

(d) No person may pack any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person making the next parachute jump with that parachute.

(e)No person may pack any main parachute of a tandem dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.



But that is not how they wrote it.

Derek

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Main canopy reline is a major repair and MUST be done by a Master Rigger ONLY or by the Mfg.

The line trim MUST be checked & the lines MUST be attached to the stab. at the right point.

If a PD main canopy is relined 2 sizes of Nylon thread are in use: Silver size"E" for the lines bartack & BLUE size "F" for the Line/Stab. attachment points.

Safe Rigging !!!

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:)
Main canopy reline is a major repair and MUST be done by a Master Rigger ONLY or by the Mfg.

The line trim MUST be checked & the lines MUST be attached to the stab. at the right point.

If a PD main canopy is relined 2 sizes of Nylon thread are in use: Silver size"E" for the lines bartack & BLUE size "F" for the Line/Stab. attachment points.

Safe Rigging !!!



I don't think the color of the tread is a requirement no matter who does the work. For someone not holding a riggers certificate issued by the FAA you seem to have some pretty strong opinions on how to apply FAR's.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Yes, I do have strong opinions because as a Rigger you should.

Any MAJOR repair to a MAIN canopy should be done
by a MASTER RIGGER ONLY !!! same here same in the USA and this includes Major patching, canopy repairs involved with seams and tapes, any Line work and Reline, Line Attachment Loops work, Tapes work and more.Even a Master Rigger might make his call to send the Main canopy to the Mfg. for the work needs to be done.

This opinion is by law, mfg. and logic.

When a Master Rigger is ready to reline a canopy he MUST have the specific line chart for the canopy he reline and he MUST know to I.D the lines to the right location on the canopy.

Ask Mfg. and you will get the same answer.

If you like to do the work as it should be you should match the colors of the lines bartack to be like the stitches colors on the line set from the Mfg., also the bartack should be the same width & length.

Any rigging work should be done Right and NICE as well.

PD use the BLUE Nylon "F" thread on the line/stab. for a reason & this is the way it should be.

Safe Rigging !!!

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OK, now this thing is getting a bit muddied with personal stuff. This is the way I (so it must be correct, right everyone? ;)) see this issue:

1. In the days when I took my rigger training from Jimmy Godwin in 1973, the correct answer to the question about altering a main canopy was "master rigger". Period. No grey area or anything subject to interpretation.

2. Whenever the FAR's were revised, according to the strict wording of 65.111 as it now reads, it says that the person jumping the main canopy is allowed to pack, maintain, or alter that canopy. There isn't a grey area in what it says, but there is certainly a grey area in what the FAA meant to say in the regulations. It is not even comprehensible that the FAA would intend for a student making his third jump to install a lineset on his main canopy.

3. Until the wording of part 65 is changed, it can be argued that the person making the next jump is legally allowed to reline their main canopy. The regulations state that, plainly, in writing. After review of this obvious mis-wording, the FAA will most certainly agree that a reline, even of the bedsheet you are allowed to jump as a main, must be done by a master rigger, because if done incorrectly it would adversely affect the airworthiness of the parachute.

4. So, if you want to reline a main canopy without being a master rigger or the manufacturer, you'd better do it while the wording of the FAR's says you may do so.

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4. So, if you want to reline a main canopy without being a master rigger or the manufacturer, you'd better do it while the wording of the FAR's says you may do so.



Right, it may not have been what the FAA intended and it may not be right, but that is what the FAR says. I don't understand how anyone can read it any other way. It says what it says. You can's say that pack applies to #3 and alter applies to #1 and mainatian applies to #4, etc. That is not how the FAR is written.

Should it be changed? I think it should be changed.

Derek

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2. Whenever the FAR's were revised, according to the strict wording of 65.111 as it now reads, it says that the person jumping the main canopy is allowed to pack, maintain, or alter that canopy.


4. So, if you want to reline a main canopy without being a master rigger or the manufacturer, you'd better do it while the wording of the FAR's says you may do so.
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So If I intend to jump the parachute next I can alter it all I want. So I can offer alterations with no qualifications put one test jump on it then give it back and stay with in the regs.

Is a reline an alteration when you are replacing like with like?

Avgjoe
Hook it for safety

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So If I intend to jump the parachute next I can alter it all I want. So I can offer alterations with no qualifications put one test jump on it then give it back and stay with in the regs.



According the FAR's, yes:S. Technically you don't even have to test jump it as long as you intended to.

You may also make you first jump by yourself without any instruction, AAD, helmet, RSL, googles, etc using a Velocity 79 for a main and a PD-106 reserve.:S the FAA also removed the FAR against skydiving under the influence of drugs or alcohol:S.

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Is a reline an alteration when you are replacing like with like?



It is a major repair. An alteration is a change to the FAA approved configuration. Since mains do not have an FAA approved configuration because they are not approved, anything you do to a main isn't considered an alteration.

Obviously the FAA does not either have a clearunderstanding of modern skydiving or more likely, they don't care. Probably both.

Derek

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So If I intend to jump the parachute next I can alter it all I want. So I can offer alterations with no qualifications put one test jump on it then give it back and stay with in the regs.
***

Absolutely not!
Read the complete regulations and not of one paragragh. The test questions in the written should be enough for you. If you answer the written test questions with Derek's mis-belief, you will not answer them correctly.

The test questions where revised two years ago, so they are correct to the Current FAR's.

Derek even has them on his web site, check them out.

All the written exams have questions in plain english that assure the FAA that you understand the FAR's as they stand.

Do not believe someone simply because they post on DZ.com alot. Do your own research!

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Yes, I do have strong opinions because as a Rigger you should.



As a rigger I do. My statement was that as a someone not holding an FAA rigger certificate that you had strong opinions on the FAR's

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PD use the BLUE Nylon "F" thread on the line/stab. for a reason & this is the way it should be.



And what would that reason be?

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Seems to me your man is correct.Unless the rules have changed since I became a master rigger in 58 no one needs a certificate to pack,maintain,alter,a main canopy when jumping their own as long as the harness and auxillary parachute was of an approved type.Main canopys need not be approved for jumping by the owner!! And that is a good thing because if that was'nt the case you guys would still be using 28'flats.The best riggers I ewer knew never had a certificate and over time gave us all the great gear we are jumping today.Some of you guys sound like a bunch of LAWYERS trying to retard the sport more than it already is...DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF!! POP D47

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Any person can work under a Master rigger and complete the work, but the Master rigger is the one to sign it off. The intent of 65.111(b) is basically for packing and etc.
If the FSDO inspector sent that out to you; he/she needs to research further into the FAR's because they are dead wrong!
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Keep in mind though, that main parachutes do not have to have anything written on the packing data cards if an alteration is made. Reserves also only require the rigger who makes a repair or alteration to record the "any deficiencies found" on the card. It would be nice of them to write what work was done, but the FAR's never state the it is required.


Cheers,
Travis

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