Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory?

[PhreeZone 14]

Link
. The link you referenced is dated from 1/2/1991. This AC has been replaced and updated since then.

Here is the Paragraph as it reads in the AC from way back then:

REPAIRS.
Parachute repairs can be classed as major repairs or minor.A major repair, as defined in FAR Section 1.1, is a repair **...that, if improperly done, might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight charactevistics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness.” (Balance and powerplant operation do not apply to parachutes.) A minor repair, as defined in FAR Section l.1,
8t . ..means a repair other than a major repair." Major repairs to parachutes may be made by a master parachute rigger, an appropriately rated parachute loft, or a manufacturer. Examples of major repairs are. replacement of a canopy panel or suspension line, or sewing a large patch on a canopy. The parachute manufacturer’s instructions should be followed when completing repairs to any portion of the parachute.

I need to contact my local FSDO and get him to send me the newer AC on this topic since its been updated a few times since 91. Mainly with the reworking of the FAR's last summer this AC was rendered null and void and a new one was wrote I was told.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

From the 2004 SIM:

“Note: FAR 105 was revised in July, 2001, with significant changes, particularly in the areas of jump notification and equipment. By this edition of the SIM, the FAA had not yet revised AC-105-2C to reflect those changes.”

AC-105-2C still refers to TSO C23C as the latest TSO instead of TSO 23D, states that a parachutist to wear a single harness, dual parachute pack, which does not reflect the FAA approval of tandems in the revised Part 105. AC-105-2C is outdated and cannot supersede the FAR’s.

AC-105-2C also states:

“The term pack (such as back pack or chest pack), when used in this AC, refers to the parachute assembly less the harness. In the case where the harness and parachute are TSO-approved as an intended component, the term pack refers to the complete parachute assembly, less the main canopy and risers. This distinction is essential for a clear understanding relating to the use, packing, repairing, and alteration of parachutes.”

And it also states:

“An alteration to an approved parachute system to be used for intentional jumping must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a main parachute. A person seeking authorization to alter an approved parachute system should proceed as follows:”

Part 65 gives four possible qualifications to meet the requirements of “specific authorization” necessary to “pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute”.

§65.111 Certificate required.
(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with §§65.127 through 65.133.
(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person --
(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;
(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or
(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.
(c) Each person who holds a parachute rigger certificate shall present it for inspection upon the request of the Administrator or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, or of any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.
(d) The following parachute rigger certificates are issued under this part:
(1) Senior parachute rigger.
(2) Master parachute rigger.
(e) Sections 65.127 through 65.133 do not apply to parachutes packed, maintained, or altered for the use of the armed forces.
[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65-9, 31 FR 13524, Oct. 20, 1966; 32 FR 5769, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65-42, 66 FR 23553, May 9, 2001]

“must be done in accordance with approved manuals”. Poynter’s Vol II, Page 272, lists the repair personnel for a “Line replacement in ram-air canopies” as a Senior or Master Parachute Rigger for non-certificated canopies and a Master Parachute Rigger for certificated canopies.

I still contend that Part 65 is very clear on who may “pack, maintain, or alter” a main parachute.

Derek

[masterrigger1 2]

***AC-105-2C also states:

“The term pack (such as back pack or chest pack), when used in this AC, refers to the parachute assembly less the harness. In the case where the harness and parachute are TSO-approved as an intended component, the term pack refers to the complete parachute assembly, less the main canopy and risers. This distinction is essential for a clear understanding relating to the use, packing, repairing, and alteration of parachutes.”

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Exactly..You need to understand this paragragh before going any further.

***And it also states:

“An alteration to an approved parachute system to be used for intentional jumping must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a main parachute. A person seeking authorization to alter an approved parachute system should proceed as follows:”

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All that this means is the fact that written approval is needed for TSO'd equipment and no written approval is needed for non-TSO'd equipment.
The requirements are the same, Master rigger and the proper equipment to do the job.
Paragraph #12 in AC-105-2c is very clear to the understanding of who can do relines to a main parachute. It is considered a major repair and only a manufacter, Master rigger, or someone working under his or her supervision can do the job.This has not changed in several years and also not in the latest revision of AC-105-2C. The 1991 version still stands as is!

***Part 65 gives four possible qualifications to meet the requirements of “specific authorization” necessary to “pack, maintain,OR alter any main parachute”.

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You still do not see the difference between "or" and the word "and". Big differences here! If the word "and " were used, that would mean all the actions listed were to be included for each example. Totally not the case here.
The word "or" is used and means to which appropriate actions apply to the below listed individuals.
I just had a disscusion with the FAA yesterday evening about this exact paragragh, your thoughts and actions, the fact that that I had yet another canopy to come into the shop incorrectly done by a Senior rigger. The work on that canopy was pretty bad!!
You are in a position as a moderator of this forum to influence many people with your comments and actions. The legal effects could be devasting from your mis-understanding of the FAR's. Please go outside of paragraph 65.111 and re-read the rest of the FAR's.
This is why I have directed the ruling from the FAA to go to you as soon as possible and have asked for re-training for your local Inspector. The ruling is expected mid-January.
***

“must be done in accordance with approved manuals”. Poynter’s Vol II, Page 272, lists the repair personnel for a “Line replacement in ram-air canopies” as a Senior or Master Parachute Rigger for non-certificated canopies and a Master Parachute Rigger for certificated canopies.

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Poynter' Manual is not the FAR's. It is a reference guide with several known errors.


BS,
Masterrigger1

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[Hooknswoop 19]

"§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.

(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft --

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood."

So which one(s) of 1 through 4 apply to act as a crewmwmber and which one(s) of 1 through 4 apply to attempt to act as a crewmember?

The way I read the "Or" is that 1 through 4 apply to both act or attempt to act as a crewmember.

The same way I read the "Or" in part 65.111. All 4 apply to either pack, maintain, or alter.

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I had yet another canopy to come into the shop incorrectly done by a Senior rigger. The work on that canopy was pretty bad!!

If a Senior Rigger made a rigging error, then they should be held responsible, same as a Master Rigger that makes a rigging error. That does not change who can pack, maintain, or alter a main canopy.

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The 1991 version still stands as is!

An AC does not trump the FAR's.

Derek

[masterrigger1 2]

The "or" that you referenced invloves different circumstances. The statement is taking for granted that the same person is trying to act or attempt to act as a crewmember.
It seems that you will not take advice or information from someone that has been in the sport and Professional Rigging business for a lot longer than just 2 or three years,even if it is written in black and white.
I just wonder what your views would be if you were a Master Rigger instead of a Senior Rigger?
I have seen previous Senior riggers take different sides of the same issues as soon as they became a Master Rigger.
***
An AC does not trump the FAR's.

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AC's are somewhat attached to the FAR's. They are generally used as interpretations of the FAR's.

I have spent enough time dealing with these issues and have tried to answer them as well as I can without bias.
The ruling that was verbally given to me yesterday reflects my previous statements.
Again, expect the formal written version Mid-January.

Masterrigger1

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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The "or" that you referenced invloves different circumstances. The statement is taking for granted that the same person is trying to act or attempt to act as a crewmember.

Doesn't matter, same use for the use of the word "or" in both FAR's. Both 1-4 apply to a person that attempts to act as a crewmember and doesn't actually act as a crewmember and 1-4 also apply to a person that actually acts as a crewmember. You can't say 1-3 apply to attempting and 3 & 4 apply to someone that actually acts as a crewmember.

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It seems that you will not take advice or information from someone that has been in the sport and Professional Rigging business for a lot longer than just 2 or three years,even if it is written in black and white.

I did take advice and information from someone that has been a Master Rigger for 10+ years and currently works for the FAA as an Inspector. I have 7+ years rigging experience and 8 1/2 years in the sport.

I also read the FAR's for myself and for the purpose of an experiment, had 6 people here at work read it and then I asked them who could alter a main canopy. All 6 said anyone that meets any of 1 through 4. Some are pilots some not. None know anything about rigging.

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I just wonder what your views would be if you were a Master Rigger instead of a Senior Rigger?

The same, the FAR says what it says.

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I have seen previous Senior riggers take different sides of the same issues as soon as they became a Master Rigger.

I have seen the same sort of thing, Master Riggers have a tendancy to believe that Senior Rigger know nothing and can do nothing. They tend to look down upon Senior Riggers.

Their opinion of the issue should not change when they become a Master Rigger.

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AC's are somewhat attached to the FAR's. They are generally used as interpretations of the FAR's.

In this case the FAR was updated in 2001 and the AC that refernces the FAR has not been updated since 1991. It is outdated and not useful for a guide for the current FAR's.

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I have spent enough time dealing with these issues and have tried to answer them as well as I can without bias.
The ruling that was verbally given to me yesterday reflects my previous statements.

I have gone by what I have read of the FAR's and what the FAA inspector has told me.

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Again, expect the formal written version Mid-January.

I can't wait.

Derek

[masterrigger1 2]

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I have seen the same sort of thing, Master Riggers have a tendancy to believe that Senior Rigger know nothing and can do nothing. They tend to look down upon Senior Riggers.

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I don't think a person that helps train 20 plus Senior Riggers every year for their certificates as looking down on them. I do, however look down on people who work outside of their legal job scope and responsibilities when they know that they are doing as such!

In this case the FAR was updated in 2001 and the AC that refernces the FAR has not been updated since 1991. It is outdated and not useful for a guide for the current FAR's.

Not according to the FAA

***I can't wait.

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That's a real good thing!


Mark

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[jmfreefly 0]

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but more directed towards the quality of worksmanship.

I wouldnt take my reserve for a repack to a rigger if I was worried about how well he could change line-sets

I know plenty of riggers that are not as current (or as talented) in sewing, but are plenty current at repacking reserves. The best case is to have Uberrigger that can do everything, certainly.

The same way there are car mechanic shops that specialize in brakes, drivetrains, whatever.. I wouldn't take an electrical problem to them necessarily, but I would take a problem that they specialize in.

I believe in the UK anyone can repack a reserve(?) without supervision (?), but to become a rigger (to modify/etc.) it practically takes an act of god ..

[linestretch 0]

so what was the final outcome of all this? Where I'm at now, we relign out tandem canopies every 400 jumps....and there is no master rigger here. I think it's always been a gray area, and just like this forum, have heard arguements on both sides of whether or not you can relign. In my opinion, it's no big deal, but also, I dont' think just anyone should go and do. I'm eager to know what came from this.

my pics & stuff!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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expect the formal written version Mid-January.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

Any word yet?

Derek

[Tonto 1]

I'm in South Africa, and returning my Stiletto 107 to the factory for a reline simply wasn't viable as I jump every weekend and don't borrow gear.

I asked my rigger if he could do it, and he said "Yes." I contacted PD, got the line spec from them and gave it to my rigger on the weekend.

The following weekend he told me he'd built the lineset out of 875 Spectra as I'd requested. He started the reline after last load Saturday, and it was done by about 20h00. (2 hours) Cost was ZAR 800. (about $115) Jumped it the next day, and it's perfect.

In all fairness, I don't believe our riggers are in it for the money. It's a once a month weekend away from the wife and kids - and they do a fine job. I'm now 50 jumps into the reline and I have no complaints.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[linestretch 0]

I just ordered a line set for my stiletto from PD, and they didn't ask if I was a Master Rigger, or even a rigger.

my pics & stuff!

[masterrig 1]

In regard to putting new lines on a (Main) parachute, I have done many line replacements on various sized parachutes from 120's - tandem, as a Master Rigger. I have found that ordering the line-sets from the manufacturer, then, charge for installing, as well as the line-set works best. Following the manufacturers instructions in regard to replacing the lines is most important as well as proper bar-tacks.
In regard to 'who' can work on a (Main) parachute, refer to FAR part 65. Only a Senior or Master Rigger or a person working under the direct supervision of a Certificated Parachute Rigger.
I would also, get to know the rigger you choose to do such work and the quality of his work.
Hope, this helps.

Chuck

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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In regard to 'who' can work on a (Main) parachute, refer to FAR part 65. Only a Senior or Master Rigger or a person working under the direct supervision of a Certificated Parachute Rigger.

Part 65 lists 4 possible people that can "pack, maintain, or alter" a main canopy:

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person --
(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;
(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or
(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

Derek

[masterrig 1]

Thanks!

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[masterrig 1]

In the case of your Triathalon and replacing the lines, with this particular parachute, Aerodyne 'strongly' prefers to replace the lines on their products. I had a jumper bring a Triathalon to my shop for complete line replacement. When I called Aerodyne to order the lines, I was informed that they would much rather replace the lines there at the factory. I was also told that they would send the line-set to me, but, they would also charge me as if they replaced the lines also. This has been about 2-yrs. ago. To save costs and time, I sent the Triathalon to Aerodyne. Things may have changed with Aerodyne, since. With other parachute manufacturers, I have had no problem ordering line-sets. I would suggest that owners of Aerodyne parachutes needing line replacements, contact Aerodyne, first.
Hope, this helps

Chuck

[Hooknswoop 19]

Any word from the FAA yet?

Derek

[masterrigger1 2]

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Any word from the FAA yet?

Derek

Not other than the email that I sent from the FAA reflecting exactly what I have been stating all along. I will try to contact them again today and also will contact the local FSDO and have them call you.

Blue ones,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[PhreeZone 14]

I found an intersting line relating to this topic:

http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/SIMtext/FAAAC1052C.htm
8. Parachute alterations
Parachute alterations are changes to the FAA-approved configuration.

Can someone send me the FAA paperwork that PD submitted for the Stiletto? I can't find it ever being filed... As far as I can tell the FAA knows nothing about the Stiletto and therefore its not requred to be done by a master rigger or even a rigger.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kitof1976 0]

Thanks a lot chuck.

I will give Aerodyne a call for the reline.

"We see the world just the way we are...

[twnsnd 1]

Look, I know all you master riggers want to defend your income by keeping everyone else away from your shit, but come on, you all know how friggin easy it is to do a line set.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[kaerock 1]

Actually, reading that section in some depth, one would find:

A. An alteration to an approved parachute system used for intentional jumping must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a main parachute.

Mains are not regulated as much as reserves are, I guess it would then be up to the Jump Pilot/DZ to decide if they want to let you fly your "altered" main :>

-Rory

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I found an intersting line relating to this topic:

http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/SIMtext/FAAAC1052C.htm
8. Parachute alterations
Parachute alterations are changes to the FAA-approved configuration.

Can someone send me the FAA paperwork that PD submitted for the Stiletto? I can't find it ever being filed... As far as I can tell the FAA knows nothing about the Stiletto and therefore its not requred to be done by a master rigger or even a rigger.

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[masterrigger1 2]

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Look, I know all you master riggers want to defend your income by keeping everyone else away from your shit, but come on, you all know how friggin easy it is to do a line set.

Maybe you are just the guy that we have been looking far... !!!!!!!!! We are in desperate need of someone instruct the riggers that have mis- installed linesets on some canopies in the field. In the last few months, a couple of people have been hurt and almost killed because of mistakes and lack of proper equipment!

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[billvon 2,379]

>We are in desperate need of someone instruct the riggers that
>have mis- installed linesets on some canopies in the field.

How the heck do you mis-install a line set? You install the lines and then measure them, then do a line check. If the lines are the right length, are bar-tacked and attached to the connectors in the right order, that's about it.