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kleggo

HELP? Your opinions on New WS choice (BASE)

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Anybody willing to help an old-guy come back to the light?
I’m coming back after a nearly 4 year aeroplane jumping hiatus and there have been significant changes in WS gear while I've been away.
I have ~ 7K jumps, most of them CReW, maybe 850 FF, 1000 Fixed Object Jumps (FOJ).
I miss flying in Norway so I’m going to get current again with primary goal of going back to Euro and flying the cliffs.
I have / had ~ 80 aeroplane and 63 Fixed Object WS jumps, all on a Birdman Classic 2.
I’m turning to you to get some opinions on what is the “best” / wisest choice in buying a new WS.
I’m a short / stocky guy, 65” tall / 142 pounds with no gear so not ultra aero.
I’m pretty conservative in gear choice, would willingly give up some flight performance to reduce WS complexity and provide extra margin of safety during FOJ.
No back flying, no flocking, just looking for a noticeable improvement over the Classic 2.
And just to put your mind at ease………… I’ll do X FF jumps first, then fly the Classic 2, then move on to new product before going to wonderland again.
Thanks
Craig


feel free to PM if you'd prefer.

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i would recommend the phoenix phantom 2z or 2 ( they have a recent zipper model which is way better than the cables). it is medium size with big time flight characteristics , ease of pull with boc, and good arm escape. a really nice base suit. i have flown s-fly expert, profly, and V2 also. my 2 cents. welcome back :) see u in norway
dont let life pass you by

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based on your experience with a classic Id recommend a Phoenix-Fly "Shadow" or a S-fly "Expert".

Both suits have a similar 'no gripper' arm position you are already comfortable with, and both allow easy access of the BOC for pulling (not possible to get fabric in between hackey and hand)

Both suits also allow for a large performance range that will suit you well in both flocking and base/performance flying arena, while still not going into the 'extreme experience necessary' arena that's linked to bigger wingsuit models.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I cant speak from the experience of flying either suit in a base enviroment. But I have flown them both extensivly in the skydiving arena, and prefer the shadow due to flying style the suit allows.

I think performance-wise the shadow is probably capable of 1-5% less than the P2 (the armwings are a little bit smaller, missing the grippers, and the legwing is also scaled back an inch to compensate for the change in ballance). But the noticable difference is so small, its neglectable for most, and flying style and personal preference would be the deciding factor.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I would also recommend either the Shadow or the Phantom2 from the Phoenix-Fly line. Likely you will enjoy the Shadow a lot, because it has aaalmost about the same performance as the Phantom2 (as Jarno also pointed out), but you don't need to even worry about grippers, which will probably add to your comfort level with it in the base environment (just my guess, I am not a base jumper, but I do have a lot of wingsuit skydives).

Your profile says you're in Perris. Is that info accurate? If so, you could take a weekend to do a little trip to Elsinore and find DSE, and I'm sure he could help you out, show you a few suits, and perhaps also do a nice first flight refresher with you and feed you some more awesome knowledge.

Anyway... welcome back! caw-caw...

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Anybody willing to help an old-guy come back to the light?


Thanks
Craig


feel free to PM if you'd prefer.



making progress.
had the reserve I&Rd
made some ff tracking jumps to get current again
and then made 2 WS jumps on the classic II this past weekend.

Now it's time to venture over to Elsinore to connect with the local PF guru (Douglas Spotted Eagle?) and chat.

Cheers

Craig

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Jarno and Brendan,

He said "No back flying, no flocking, just looking for a noticeable improvement over the Classic 2".

Given that the Shadow is specifically built for backflying(Symmetric wing profiles), I would only recommend it over a Phantom if someone was especially spooked about the very tiny possibility of wing covering BOC on the Phantom.

kleggo,

My vote is for the Phantom :)
K

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Given that the Shadow is specifically built for backflying



The Shadow flies on both belly and back, but has an identical wing profile to every other suit. Performance wise, both suits are so close in performance there is hardly a difference noticable aside from body-position used. At least in the flying Alejandro and I do together in Shadow/Phantom, the performance quite matches (seeing as skillwise and in terms of build, both of us are similar)

Coming of a classic (no grippers) the shadow probably would be closer to what he's used to than a Phantom..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Quotes from the Shadow page from PF site below.

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/products/wingsuits/phoenix_fly_shadow

Quote

The Shadow armwing leading edge is straight, changing the flying position to give the pilot much more flexibility. The symmetrical wing profiles and tapered trailing edge also combine to enhance manoeuvrability.




Quote

Symmetrical wing profiles ensure efficient lift generation with the suit flying in either orientation.



Is that you in the Shadow picture on the website? Those wings look symmetric to me.

***At least in the flying Alejandro and I do together in Shadow/Phantom, the performance quite matches (seeing as skillwise and in terms of build, both of us are similar)

There is a basic problem with that statement.

Unless both of you are trying 100% for at least 30 secs to fly the farthest and end up being right next to each other, drawing a conclusion like that from flocking is not correct.

I have never had more fun in BASE than (barring one jump) in my Phantom 1, So you are not changing my opinion or recommendation :P

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There is a basic problem with that statement.



There is no problem.....Im talking about +- 30 jumps with Alejandro and I flying from 4500ft to 3000ft at seperation. Both flying all out, only a few degrees offset to eachother. We end up same altitude, same distance every single jump.

If there is a difference between the 2 suits, its quite minimal to almost not present. The body position used for flying is the only noticable difference.

The description on the website is still related to the acro, and due for a big update. The wings are identical to the phantom if you look at the cross-section.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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I have about 25 jumps on a Shadow, and while it is a bit different to fly there doesn't seem to be any noticeable performance difference to me. I have made a few jumps flat out with others in Phantom 2z, and have jumped various Phantoms myself.

I'd recommend the Shadow over the Phantom to the original poster.

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Fair enough.

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I’m pretty conservative in gear choice, would willingly give up some flight performance to reduce WS complexity and provide extra margin of safety during FOJ.



This one trumps the back flying/performance issue question.

In case this is not clear, I am conceding that a Shadow as suggested by Luke and Jarno is the better choice.


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Craig,

Apologies for the thread drift. Have fun jumping with DSE and post some pics and video :)
Kris



thanks for the continuing discussion.
i appreciate the banter so keep it coming.

DSE
i'm 5'5" / 142 lb.
hope to see you this weekend.

cheers

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As DSE's got both suits for you to try, I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts about the two suits.

I might(have to visit the DPS for the Driver's License test first...I am not in London anymore :(, on the other hand its sunny out here :P) be returning to wingsuit flying after nearly 3 years this weekend. Very excited!!

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Here's a bit of an update.
Since my previous post i've made;
3 jumps on the Classic II
11 jumps on the Phantom 2 thanks to DSE and Skydive Elsinore.

DSE has proven to be a valuable resource and excellent instructor. Without doubt he has dramatically hastened my learning curve.

Nest step is to rent a Tony T Bird from Simon @ Wicked Wingsuits to get another reference point.

My primary goal remains max speed / best glide rate / max distance.

i've found the Phantom 2 to be an excellent suit for intro flying and "flocking" as i learn.
i can fly it pretty efficiently.
i can flail and recover easily.
i can fly with other people.
i love the new arm zippers instead of the lace up wings.

But, I'm not convinced it is the proper tool for my goal.

cheers

Craig

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How did it go on your openings, reaching around the fabric and dropping your grippers to reach your pilot chute ? Different ? You'll like the high reach leg zippers on the Bird series ( and other Tony Suits ). At this rate, you'll probably get a Vampire 3.....ha, ha, ha......
Life is short ... jump often.

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The Phantom2 and Shadow can get very impressive glide ratio \ distance if flown well, but obviously will not beat a more advanced suit that is also flown well.

The best distance and glide ratio are not necessarily the same thing, it depends on what the winds are doing. If your distance is being assisted by a tail wind, the longer you are in freefall the more effect this assistance will have, and the opposite if you are flying into a head wind.

If you really want max GR or distance and are not interested in flocking or acrobatics, the V4 and Venom are worth a look, especially if you liked the Phantom. For max speed it's simple - V3 or V4.

The Vampire and Venom are two very different animals, and will suit different styles and needs accordingly.

For starting WS base, depending on the sites you are going to, you may well have more fun flying a Shadow\Phantom2 for a season or two before moving to something more advanced. The popular sites for learning WS base do not require huge distances to be covered.

There are recommendations for experience level on various suits for a reason. Take them into consideration when making your choice.

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