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Davo

New PF Ripoff?

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Wingsuits will be all the same soon in terms of planform and 'technology'



I actually think we'll see them diverse even more. Not every development is towards that of bigger wing. Also in the smaller wingsize, there are a lot of exciting changes and developments regarding backflying, aerobatics and performance.
So far we havent really had a standard in inlet design or wingsize or shape. Every few years it changes. For better or for worse...who knows...but it seems to be an eternaly evolving thing...



I agree. I'll put my thought in other words: The designs aiming for max glide ratio will be about the same. Although, each season there will be probably a new, 'revolutionary' 'technology' on all the x-birds, z-birds and y-birds, V5, V6 and V7's.

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Wingsuits will be all the same soon in terms of planform and 'technology'



I actually think we'll see them diverse even more. Not every development is towards that of bigger wing. Also in the smaller wingsize, there are a lot of exciting changes and developments regarding backflying, aerobatics and performance.
So far we havent really had a standard in inlet design or wingsize or shape. Every few years it changes. For better or for worse...who knows...but it seems to be an eternaly evolving thing...



All current generation inlets on Tony suits and PF suits are functionally the same.


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Rip Off?? U mean from NASA?


While an interesting picture the arm wing design is nothing like the S- bird, X-bird or the PF version the Venom. On all of those suits the section of the arm wing closest to the torso extends down to the shin area for 6" or so. I personally give Robi props for all his innovation, hell wingsuits would not even have made this huge leap without him but the stealth and venom are more or less coping the competition. Maybe in the design of human flight would eventually lead to these designs but who made it first and who is copying who? Tony suits have come a very long way and for the most part have made their own path, his first suites did not copy anyones and they lead to their current suits, for that I really want to give them a hand.
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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The Stealth2 and V3 (and scoop arm inlet system/ clean leading edge) came out almost a full year before the Xbird. Overlay a Stealth2 and V3 and the combo is the excact outline of the Venom, and similar shows the current design direction quite a bit before it was supposedly copied from X and Y. There is always some back and forth inspiration, but when mentioning who copies what...at least get the timeline, and what feature appeared where first correct...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Jarno, I really (promise) do not want to stir stuff here (as I love PF and my V3 :)), but it is my observation that although Stealth2 came before XBird, the original Stealth line from the beginning looked to me like a copy of the SuperMach1 that was the predecessor to the X-line on Tony side.

There will always be some idea borrowing from one side or the other, the market needs competition, etc but to me heres the timeline I remember it starting it sometime in 07 or 08

PF is kicking ass with their PH,V1/V2, Tony comes out with Aerobat, Raptor, Mach1 and then Super Mach1, then PF adds Ghost that looks a lot like my Raptor, and Stealth that resembles SMach.. also upgrades to V3 that is just awesome (and I also own one)
then Tony adds Bird series (T,R,M,X) that replace their line and somehow look slightly inspired by the V in a tiny bit
then PF releases V4 and especially Venom that resembles the X-Bird in the look, but also leg vents (airlocks, as I felt it B| during bridge day)

Of course I can't say the 2 competitors copy each other but definitely inspire each other to borrow designs to improve their suits.

disclaimer: I own both brands, like 'em both, it's not a pissing match, just an observation from my point of view to which anyone can disagree. Again, I do not want a pissing match :)
Happy flights! Looking forward to demos :)

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The original stealth1 was a definate response to the 'big wingdemand' that Tony wihtout doubt opened up with his designs.
There where several big suit designs before, which showcased wings going down way past the knee, to the ankle (such as GS1) but those never really took off commercialy.

Aside from wingsize (big) the Stealth2 is quite a different thing from the Stealth1 and SM1 (watch the suits side by side/overlay) especially with regards to the inlet system. I dont really care for the whole 'who did this, who did that' but when people make direct quotes related to the origin of an idea or design, I do mind when its not a correct one.

Each manufacturer has some stamp on the dicipline, with features that influence the whole market.
It just sometimes gets a little strange to me, when people label someone as a creator of a zipper system or inlet design or other feature that was long available on other manufacturers (per example Jii-Wings and Sfly with the zippers, several years before tony or pf adopted those).

Whenever someone releases new models, there always seems to be this need to point fingers and compare. While its not so hard to search for the differences instead of the similarities..and just enjoying the products for what they offer you...

Test em..fly em....you'll see that even the most similar suits can be way different in design...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Agreed!

No suits are direct/exact copies of each other, and some designs/features were there way before, just never commercialized as much.

I also realize that even they can look the same for the most part, they will fly differently, and subtle differences that can not be seen at first glance make a world of difference.

All in all, I am happy there is competition and suits evolve and people are working hard to make them better and to make their customers happier.

Whether it's PF, Tony, FYB, Jii, others it doesn't matter as long as we enjoy the flight and have a great time.

I really love my V3 and Raptor as they both serve a different purpose :)
Looking forward to demo bunch of new suits in coming months. Hopefully some new awesomeness at FnD 7.0

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Jarno, I really (promise) do not want to stir stuff here (as I love PF and my V3 :)), but it is my observation that although Stealth2 came before XBird, the original Stealth line from the beginning looked to me like a copy of the SuperMach1 that was the predecessor to the X-line on Tony side.

.....and so ?:$ I was the first, no me, no me...?

Innovation is all what as a wsflyer we are looking for, the more brands innovating from current design appears, the best it is for the community...no ? why should all manufactures absolutely be original with their particular design ? improvement and innovation taking from everybody's ideas is truly the rule to go... hopefully today manufacturers are not in a competitive market like kite surf sails where all brands are paying fees & licences for each innovation.

Everybody is free in this small market to boost their products for our ws community... at least let them have a chance to get a decent living with it (such a small number of WS sold per year... in comparison with other markets...) am i wrong ?;)B|
Patrick de Guillebon


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Whether it's PF, Tony, FYB, Jii, others it doesn't matter as long as we enjoy the flight and have a great time.



Don't forget Matter, EG, and Dakine. For example, Chuck Priest was putting 'bubble butts' on wingsuits over a decade ago but some folks think it's a recent development.

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Maybe in the design of human flight would eventually lead to these designs but who made it first and who is copying who?



Taking a manufacturers logo, rotating it upside down, and labeling with a different name - that would be copying.
All the swept wings on jet-fighters are copies of some old design? It's just aerodynamics acknowledged, used by some earlier, by others later. It's not copying in my opinion.

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Jarno, I really (promise) do not want to stir stuff here (as I love PF and my V3 :)), but it is my observation that although Stealth2 came before XBird, the original Stealth line from the beginning looked to me like a copy of the SuperMach1 that was the predecessor to the X-line on Tony side.

There will always be some idea borrowing from one side or the other, the market needs competition, etc but to me heres the timeline I remember it starting it sometime in 07 or 08

PF is kicking ass with their PH,V1/V2, Tony comes out with Aerobat, Raptor, Mach1 and then Super Mach1, then PF adds Ghost that looks a lot like my Raptor, and Stealth that resembles SMach.. also upgrades to V3 that is just awesome (and I also own one)
then Tony adds Bird series (T,R,M,X) that replace their line and somehow look slightly inspired by the V in a tiny bit
then PF releases V4 and especially Venom that resembles the X-Bird in the look, but also leg vents (airlocks, as I felt it B| during bridge day)

Of course I can't say the 2 competitors copy each other but definitely inspire each other to borrow designs to improve their suits.

disclaimer: I own both brands, like 'em both, it's not a pissing match, just an observation from my point of view to which anyone can disagree. Again, I do not want a pissing match :)
Happy flights! Looking forward to demos :)




Actually, if you want to split hairs, the "big" suit idea can be attributed to Leo Valentin/Clem Sohn and all the others from the barnstormer era that followed. But I can say for certain that Robi created this suit before Tony or anyone else was commercially selling wingsuits. Take it for what it is worth but at the end of the day it's a chicken/egg argument.:)

The evolution is almost circular if you stop to look at it. It began with enormous suits with wood spars and has has almost evolved into the same suit designs today, minus the spars and canvas.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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nice picture of ED but once again this suit does not have arm wings that extend down to beyond the knee. Robi is definitly one of the biggest pioneers of wingsuit design but lately outside of the vampire series his suits seem to be nearly mirroring his competions. The Venom and the Stealth are more or less the same as the X-bird or a super mach one.
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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nice picture of ED but once again this suit does not have arm wings that extend down to beyond the knee.



The Jii-wings designs had that(arm wings extending below the knee) before Tony even started making suits. What about the V1 style smooth leading edges on the -Bird suits?

What aarthus said. The end result is we got better suits and more choice.

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And if it wasnt for PF we'd all still be stuck with shoulder inlets and different cuts of the armwings. If nitpicking on who did what, there's hardly an orginal invention in the list.

Though great marketing, its not as liniar as you make it sound...but I guess everyones current employer twists and taints both your and my statements a bit...:P

As long as its positive and we all have fun wingsuits to fly that keep improving upon safety, construction and performance...everyone wins...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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