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SuperGirl

How many ws jumps before teaching others to fly?

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Sad to see the other thread about the cool new instructors getting locked.

While I can see that it was drifting and was only meant to be a congratulatory thing (but then again, what thread doesn't drift in our awesome little dysfunctional family here, I surely have been guilty of throwing out the occasional unrelated boobie post more than once), I believe the topic that arose from it deserves some follow-up attention.

So I'd like to ask... what does everyone feel is an okay number of wingsuit jumps for someone to start teaching others how to fly?
And under what circumstances, if any, would you be willing to break that chosen jump number recommendation?

Call me anal about this, but I see it as a safety concern.
At 20-something wingsuit jumps, while you may be totally awesome and fly a solid slot (as I'm sure 100ish jump wonder FFCs resulting in fatalities also had mad flying skills), you simply haven't had enough experience with student/low time flyers. I'm talking about exposure to situations like a student diving hard and then popping big time right at you, in which case you could easily take out your student if you don't know what you're doing. It has a lot to do with knowing to SAFELY get close, without putting yourself or the student in danger, all the while anticipating the student's potentially erratic movements. You need to be proficient enough in your flying to not worry about what you’re doing, but to observe and report (the primary objectives of a USPA Coach), to provide relevant feedback/critique and suggest areas of improvement after the jump.
Hell, it takes a whole bunch of jumps to even dial in any new suit, let alone explore the whole range of your flying to the point of being able to teach others about it.

I'd appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts on this matter.

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do we get to see your boobie in this post?



not in this post, but come to a boogie i'm at and you might just happen to be on a load where I kindly ask the pilot for some extra altitude... cause I'm a good team player like that :D

now back on topic. geez, people.

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i was at chicks rock, i didnt see your boobies



you shoulda asked...



Careful, Mr. Master has a padlock just waiting to be used. Don't let this thread drift to far, or else.B|
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i was at chicks rock, i didnt see your boobies



you shoulda asked...



Careful, Mr. Master has a padlock just waiting to be used. Don't let this thread drift to far, or else.B|



actually, I'm hoping one of the mods can clean up the boobie related bullshit out of this by tomorrow morning...
I'm still very interested in people's thoughts on the initial topic, regardless of the first few off topic remarks that we always see here...

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i was at chicks rock, i didnt see your boobies



you shoulda asked...



Careful, Mr. Master has a padlock just waiting to be used. Don't let this thread drift to far, or else.B|



actually, I'm hoping one of the mods can clean up the boobie related bullshit out of this by tomorrow morning...



But boobies are good and get us extra altitude. That = very good.

Questioning why things are done in the WS community, get ready for Mr. Padlock. That is thread drift.
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Supergirl,
The recommendation/rule is out there. 100 jumps
HOWEVER, AFAIK there is NO requirement for anyone with over 500jumps to take any formal lessons.

So, ANY wingsuit flyer with over 500 jumps can give a "class" to any other wingsuit flyer with over 500 jumps.
Which is what I believe has been happening locally.


I am trying to fix that.

If ANYONE has drama on that deal with it.
I won't get involved with personal vendettas. However, I got sucked in by the drama. posted since Scott posted his congratulatory post.

The military does not a formal wingsuit rating to write its own courser. So I could have stayed in the nest and written a program that I met our needs.


Instead of bitching about it the flock could choose to support that fact that I was put in a situation where I decided to gain as much education and information as I could.

I have spoken personally to DSE AND SCOTT. I met with Monkey and a few others in MOAB. The bickering that is going on now seems ridiculous to me.

FYI- The wingsuit course wont be starting for sometime here. This was Step three in what has been a 5-year process to start a wingsuit program here.
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Please don't feel so attacked... it's really not all about you...

My concern is more with future wingsuiters' perception of what is an okay number... and I can think of a few examples where people with only a handful of jumps think it's no biggie to lend their suit to their buddy and show em a thing or two... Spreading awareness on what may go horribly wrong in such a scenario may be of benefit here.

Notice that I didn't pick on any names of people or brands or instructional programs in my post. This goes beyond just this one recent example... yes, your thread happened to be a good reminder for this discussion, and I felt like others could benefit from keeping the discussion going rather than locking down the thread.
That being said, I am more interested in the community's general opinion on the topic, than I am in dragging you through some crappy drama.

Yes, people with 500+ jumps can do whatever they please. No BSR to prevent them. But general awareness of what's involved might help...
Otherwise, my concern is with sub-500 jumpers who might feel like they're hot shit and want to attach an instructional label and number to themselves and start teaching other sub-500 jumpers after just a handful of wingsuit jumps, "because that other guy was doing it, hence it's okay".

That's the type of reasoning that lead to people with fewer and fewer jumps doing FFCs back when there was no BSR to enforce it. The more people with sub-200 jumps were being taught to fly a wingsuit, the more people figured anyone's good to try... even at 107 jumps... and we know how well that went...

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After talking with JT at Moab, I applaud the steps he is taking to provide training at the academy. The jumpers receive very focused training and expect the WS training will live up to these high standards. That is not what happens for most noobies at most DZs.

My concern is that some 108 jump wonder will use this example as a reason as to why their mad skilz will allow them to start wingsuiting way too early.

So folks, let's keep our discussion to supergirl's question and leave the freshly minted trainers out of it.
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i'd say it depends on the person teaching and the person learning.



Good point.
Let's assume the person learning could be anybody... once one views themselves as an instructor/coach, they really don't know what kind of first flight students they're going to get. Sometimes the very skilled and experienced skydivers can pull the craziest stuff on FFCs. There's no way to know in advance... you can guess... and most of the time you'll be right... but every once in a while you will get that student that just does something to freak you out.

So it really shouldn't matter on the person learning. Most would be fine teaching the easy FFCs where the student flies so well you could dock on them... but there's no way to guarantee that.

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i'd say it depends on the person teaching and the person learning.



What I like about rules is that they draw one line in the sand, apply to everyone and dont get bent for reasons not related to the rules itself.

Sad to see not everyone stick to the rules being rules...
JC
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so what would you say my level would be to help a 500+jumps jumper who wants to do a first flight ?

now there is also a difference between teaching a proper FFC and giving hints & tips to help keep said flight as safe as afirst flight can be.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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as long as you have mad skillz, it doesnt matter; you should be able to get a rating over beers or via email. it should also be cool to just talk about wingsuits, that will tell people how good you really are..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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so what would you say my level would be to help a 500+jumps jumper who wants to do a first flight ?

now there is also a difference between teaching a proper FFC and giving hints & tips to help keep said flight as safe as afirst flight can be.



Its all quite besides the point.
When you set a standard, you dont deviate from that standard.

If you need a 1000 jumps to become a tandemmaster, the fact that you may be a world champion freeflyer or swooper will not make a single difference, and you still have to adhere to the same rules that apply to everyone.

Flying a slot in a formation, or responding to irratic flying some students do. Potentialy leading to someone impacting a student at high speed....its stuff you learn with experience.
100 wingsuit jumps dont guarantee that you have these skills, but thats what the following check-out dives should asses/take care of.

If you want a certain title, related to experience and skill. Make sure everyone has that same standard.
I dont blame any of the participants to the refered 'lapse in judgement' the chief intructor we are discussing made. But I do think he (of all people) should be the one sticking to rules, seeing as said course was (apperantly) refered to as the only non-bendable standard at recent USPA BOD meetings.

I fully agree with Virgin-Burner on this one...
JC
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If you want a certain title, related to experience and skill. Make sure everyone has that same standard.
I dont blame any of the participants to the refered 'lapse in judgement' the chief intructor we are discussing made. But I do think he (of all people) should be the one sticking to rules, seeing as said course was (apperantly) refered to as the only non-bendable standard at recent USPA BOD meetings.

I fully agree with Virgin-Burner on this one...

I'm not claiming any title. Just saying I could help some kind of people, being better than "nothing".

I'd nevertheless love to get more training myself in order to obtain COach/I/watchamightcallit rating and get better at teaching
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Andreaa,
Thanks!
I didn't feel as if you were attacking me. I just chose respond to your original question.
(instead of talking about boobies...WTF happened to me)

But before the thread was cleaned up there was a bit of flack that I felt the need for people to understand that is was "nothing at all" or "go receive some training."

I chose the latter.
As said I DO agree that there should be some course for new WS people to go through instead of jumper "A" giving jumper "B" a class when jumper "A" has no instructional experience.

This is the same discussion as the videots discuss with a mimimum jump number rule. Though, admittedly, a completely different animal.
I'm not going to suggest that I am beyond the standards . I'm not.
I understand people dislike Scott for whatever reason they hold dear to them. But, I am not one of them.

I enjoy speaking with Scott...And WITH DSE, monkey etc...


My friends don't have to get along with each other in order for me to continue being friends with them.


But, I can tell them they're squabbling over many of the same points of view.
I am positive they have differing POV's on some issues but I'd bet if the community would sit down and stop being so stubborn that they'd get more accomplished that way.

well, Back to work for me. Hope you all have a good day.
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I voted "Other". My own personal standard is that a wingsuit instructor ought to be able to safely stay with a student no matter what they do. If you cannot stay with a student under all circumstances, or at least respond and catch them within a few seconds if they go head down or spiral, then you can't effectively observe, video or debrief them afterward let alone help them navigate. There has to be a certain gray area in that standard since students can easily go headdown and achieve accelerations it can take a few seconds to meet and exceed enough to close on them again, but the ability to catch them quickly when they do strikes me as fairly mandatory.
My $.02
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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Lurch, I think the points you mention here, are outside of the basic experience requirements, but more linked to what should be tested during examination jumps.

What Im severly objected against, is someone deviating from a set, promoted and (by own accord) 'strict' standard that, appearance isn't as strict and standard as some say.

Watching another BMCI train soeone with only 80 or so freefall jumps during another BMI exam, I think it shows that standard is far from what should be concidered the norm...
JC
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Is 50 jumps enough? Done is this or 5-6 seasons?

There is no strong correlations between jump numbers and skill and this does not depend on a skydiving discipline.



Note that the experience one has in a dicipline is deemed the bare minimum at which you could have experienced/done/flown enough to be able to pass the actual check-out jumps.

Ive played dummy student with variable scenarios the last few months on some PFC exams, and for sure...not all flyers passed.

But I cant see with the best of my knowledge how anyone can be expecting someone with 10, 30 or 60 wingsuit jumps to fully understand flight dynamics to the point of applying them in a scenario with a large number of variables..

Sure, some people are good at flocking, or flying solo performance. But again..1000 jumps also is not a guarantee someone will pass the exam for tandemmaster. Yet lower jump numbers (at least here in EU) are not accepted. If you have a bare minimum in your rules. Stick to that.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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