Phoenix-Fly Coach Course

[kallend 1,620]

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In both cases it was people offering them training, and missing important parts of the basic information anyone TEACHING this stuff should know, cover and make sure is understood.

.

Like teaching licensed skydivers that they have to use leg straps?

I guess I was just lucky that it occurred to me on my first WS flight that I needed leg straps.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LukeH 0]

It's a safe bet that he knew he needed legstraps.

There have been quite a few people that have forgotten legstraps and gotten away with it. I've heard of someone that didn't even learn from the first time and jumped without legstraps a second time. Do you think that any of these people consciously decided that they didn't need legstraps or did they make a mistake?

People make mistakes, when you are less experienced, tired or hungover you are more likely to make a mistake. Adding extra complications to a jump such as a new type of suit, camera etc. can lead lower experienced jumpers to focus on the new stuff to the detriment of the basics. When you have hundreds of WS jumps it can be easy to forget all of the new things someone has to think about from exit, to flying position, recovery techniques, navigation, deployment etc. over their first few WS jumps. This is a lot extra for someone with only a couple of hundred jumps to take on all at once.

This is why a minimum experience level and proper training are important, to minimise the risk of such a serious mistake being made.

Proper training of someone with at least the minimum experience level will point out the potential for these issues (obvious as they are to most) and teach good practices like the habit of never closing your suit with out the leg straps fully tightened.

These type of fatalities should never happen, proper instruction and instructors that abide by the industry recommendations would go a long way to preventing more in the future.

Anyone that tries to improve the standard of instruction should be lauded. Gimps that sit on the sideline grinding their axes and taking pot-shots should be just ignored, they are more interested in their personal gripe that improving the discipline.

[P-dro 0]

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Just had some Belgians mention heading to France as they seem to think 150 jumps is enough...

150 jumps is the limit when you can get training on entry-level WS such as the Prodigy or Access. From there you must make 40 jumps on these WS before going to more advanced models.

[mccordia 73]

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WS such as the Prodigy

That may be recommendations used in France, but for sure not anything issued, promoted or recommended from Phoenix-Fly.

200 jumps is the minimum (similar to almost every other country in the world). I do hope instruction in France takes note of the organisation rules that visiting jumpers from other countries have to adhere to, in order for their liability insurance etc to be valid. And thats next to general safety a and other concequences violation of local/organisation rules may lead to in their home country.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[virgin-burner 1]

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In both cases it was people offering them training, and missing important parts of the basic information anyone TEACHING this stuff should know, cover and make sure is understood.

.

Like teaching licensed skydivers that they have to use leg straps?

I guess I was just lucky that it occurred to me on my first WS flight that I needed leg straps.

thank god u're so smart and have a degree!



just kidding mate, but jesus, how could you forget to put on legstraps!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[VectorBoy 0]

Gimps that sit on the sideline grinding their axes and taking pot-shots should be just ignored, they are more interested in their personal gripe that improving the discipline.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Gimps that sit on the sideline grinding their axes and taking pot-shots should be just ignored, they are more interested in their personal gripe that improving the discipline.

Its not pot-shots. When you go around defamating third party individuals who have not hurt anybody, are far removed from any incidents or fatality and abide the existing recommendations as they stand now by the USPA then you can expect some blow back.

have you been drinking (again)!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[voodew1 0]

Hate to say it but I have Glens back on this one - all you great wingsuit flyers have way to big of egos.
There was a day when this was all hashed out with the BMCIs (who were the most awesome wingsuit flyers that could do anything) -Now they have stepped aside for the new group of awesome wingsuit heroes that happen to be from PF.
Even the Flock U tards don't even spout this much bullshit.

We are heading back to the days of
Question "Hey you want to make a wingsuit jump? "
Answer "No thats all right I have friends"

For the record - I am an EX -AFFI / EX- Coach / EX PFI
And last weekend I did some first flight courses and will continue to do so for free as I always have!

There is more to life than skydiving - and just because you skydive doesn't make you cool

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[mccordia 73]

There is no egos. Just advocating proper training. Be it BMI, PF or whatever makes people train students in a proper way.
You may be ex BMI/PFI whatever, but you have a proper way of teaching people, and got taught/trained on that by someone.
That it translates to ego, and makes you want to flaunt certain ratings or belonging to a group of cool people is your own choice/view.
How all that translates to no friends, no life and whatever else it is you comment on, is beyond me.
Especially seeing as most people this comment is aimed towards have complete life and careers outside of the sport as well.

Making sure people who want to teach have acces to proper structured training is all thats offered here. If you dont agree, do as you please. Nobody here is saying you can't.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[voodew1 0]

please --- You and DSE have become the Campos / Blue of many years ago --- They seem to have mellowed out and quit trying to throw their weight around leaving room for you and DSE to step in an be 'heroes'

Glen has extremely valid points as we did back in the BMCI days when I was less experienced - now I have many more years ------- I still agree

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[mccordia 73]

There is a lot of bad training happening, and accidents caused directly by that.
If offering people the choice of a standard in training, and not looking away and acting like my nose is bleeding when bad things happen makes two guys online who Ive never met judge me as an asshole/ego, Im perfectly fine with that.

Namecalling and uninformed judgment calls on aspects of my life outside of this discussion shows its mostly personal gripes and offended egos.
Nobody is forcing you to do anything. That negative energy would be much better used doing something positive things for the sport.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[voodew1 0]

There has been bad training going on for many years and it won't stop - thats a fact...........there are shitty AFFI's that never should be allowed to jump with students but they have a rating --- just like wingsuit instructors

The difference is AFFI ratings are USPA ---- wingsuit instructor ratings are well...............NOTHING/NOT NEEDED/OVERRATED

You can try to better it but you need to check your ego before you hit the keyboard as it makes you out to be a glory hound and lets be real ----- nobody is going to like it.
If I recall back in the BMCI days you were on Glen and my band wagon--------and now you have decided to fall off the wagon......good luck!
As for others on your wagon that don't have a lot of time in the sport - check yourself too!

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[DSE 3]

Every discipline in this sport (and in other sports) go through evolutional shifts.
Reducing poor instruction is one part of the evolution. Furthering and safely accelerating the growth of the sport is another component. This is nothing new. You hated it in the early days, you hate it now. That's not new either.
When someone does a coaching package they learn several exits, navigation, flying techniques, and they’re advancing faster than many of us did. True, there are those in this discipline naturally gifted but that doesn’t mean that those less skilled should be discounted because they seek training that goes beyond the FFC or even an in-depth FFC. I wish I’d had someone with a structured, measurable program when I first started out.There may have been one, but it surely wasn’t evident in Utah, Eloy, Pepperell, or Elsinore when I first began wingsuiting.

The PF course is very much like the AFFI program, and like the AFF program, it has standards for PFC’s. These standards don’t affect anyone except those that elect to learn standardized teaching methods. In principle, you’re pissing on people that want more knowledge. I’m sure the average experienced skydiver can teach an FJC, but there are a few that chase the AFFI rating even though they may never use it. It teaches them to be “better” and it’s a standard from which everyone can have a foundation in discussion.
If you want to become more adept at any task, teach it. Most intelligent people want to make their world better.
No one is forcing you to be a PFC.
No one is telling you that you can’t teach. I’m sure you (like Glenn) are quite capable of teaching. But from a manufacturer’s liability and safety standpoint, a standardized program is what seems to work best. Its available to those who want it. It can be ignored by those who dont like it.
It defines a certain standard for the people listed on the PF website. And assures the same course any other person on that list would teach. Not forgetting parts. Not making things up. A standard program.
What we are saying is that “Based on what has been developed in the past, we’ve built a new program, call it ‘wingsuit coaching 2.0’” and saying that at the moment it’s one standard, a standard from which the next incarnation will potentially build upon. A lot of experienced minds have come together to build this thing. You’ve focused on Jarno and myself becaus we’re the only ones dumb enough to get suckered into responding to these anti-program rants. Yes, we’re both close to it because we both (as all that contributed) feel that safety, standards, and fun should be the focus of these FFC’s and subsequent training.
When S/L started seeing competition from AFF, when AFF turned into the ISP, when groups attempted to develop USPA-based canopy training, even in the world of CRW when there was push to develop CRW instruction and safety standards, there was pushback.
No matter how good something may be, there will always be some push back simply because some need to piss on something. After a few beers, they don’t argue rationally but instead resort to calling people “faggot” and “dickwad.”
None of the arguments have gone beyond “I’ve been jumping longer than you,” “I remember when,” or “I don’t believe in your program.” I hope to heaven I’m never an old guy sitting in my chair bitching about the “new kids who don’t know anything” because in fact...the new kids have built upon the experiences of the “old guy” and will continue to do so. Moreover, they’re learning at an exponential rate.
Is that truly your best argument against a manufacturer having an organized, standardized recommended method of teaching? That you’ve been jumping for a few years more than I have been? Yet you argue that the reason we want to improve and standardize is ego?
“Check yourselves” indeed.
Dissatisfaction is a catalyst for change, but you’re not advocating change. You say “better training is needed” out of one side of your mouth and spit insults out of the other. With your superior jump numbers and time-in-sport, constructive criticism would be appreciated and potentially accepted.
I probably don’t fly nearly as well as you or Glenn, and that’s OK by me. I do teach wingsuiting and AFF 7 days a week. I also conduct 3-4 USPA Coach courses per year. Somewhere in all that, I desire to improve on what I’ve learned and will continue to do so. I pray the day never arrives where I become complacent or argumentative because I think I know, have seen, or done it all.

[voodew1 0]

So your saying that you're running a Skydive U program for wingsuiting
Thats great if you can find people to pay for your course - but let it be an option and don't shove it down peoples throats.
Skydive U is a great program to suck money out of new jumpers - I have watched it go on over and over and in the long run had you spent the extra money you paid for coaching on jumps with even half assed skydivers you would have had more fun and been in the same place - (taking out the 10% that really excel)

My gripe is the pushing of what you think is the best option down everyone throats - just like back in the BMCI days when they were requiring room and board / plane tickets / plus cash to do anything.
Throw it out there - and leave it alone and make sure everyone knows its an option not a requirement.

Just like back in the days of if you don't get a BMI to train you you will die - if you don't have a BMI rating and you teach someone you both will die
Remember there is no true wing suit instructor rating in the USPA (might be over seas but I don't live there so it doesn't matter to me)

And if safety is #1 why not put it online so everyone can be safer???? Thats what really needs explanation!
Even the BMI stuff was online

This has nothing to do against PF or any manufacture - it only has to do with the way you put yourselves out there - there is no ax to grind - just calling it as I see it as I do with everything that is just not quite right.

And good job flattering me to try to shrink your ego - it is big you have to know that right????????

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[VectorBoy 0]

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Dissatisfaction is a catalyst for change, but you’re not advocating change. You say “better training is needed” out of one side of your mouth and spit insults out of the other. .

1 You assumed I made up the story of the lurker wanting an answer to two simple questions. You could have ignored the request but chose to attack instead.

2 You now assume this lurker is Voodoo. He is not.

3 If you you want to string up an instructor on the basis of safety who qualified you for a canopy pro rating ?

[voodew1 0]

Lets clarify -- Voodoo is a pornstar who flies a wingsuit
I am Voodew and I only want to be a pornstar

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[jojo0815 0]

wow.... I just got done reading through this and I have to say my eyes hurt.
So you need a USPA Coach rating to take part in the PFC course. Isn't the Coach rating for teaching people how to teach in the first place. But what you are saying is that YOUR methods are better and you are going to redo it all over again? I have also taught many FFCs and have had good and bad students. Sometimes you can tell before someone goes up and you take the extra time and effort to make sure they'll be alright. But then there is the whole attention span issue. Aren't you over teaching at this point?
You guys seem to be forgetting one thing, you are dealing with experienced skydivers here and the skill set a student has at 200 jumps varies greatly. If somebody has 200 RW jumps and no tracking experience he is likely to be a bad candidate for a FFC. I have seen people with 100 jumps that were excellent trackers. I still made them wait until they had 200 jumps though.
As for the new PFC course I agree with Glen. Why would anyone spend the money on a rating that I am sure will be obsolete once the USPA adopts a rating for wingsuit coaches. PF seems to have pulled their previous rating once already. Who can guarantee that it's not going to happen again. Please don't get me wrong I am all the way behind the PF products. I have the utmost respect for Robi for being the innovator and pioneer he is and I hope he always will be. PF products are solid and I support Robi all the way.

Maybe one day we can all be friends and respect each other. The egos and look-at-me-attitude that is going on in our very small community is very sad. Is it because WS BASE is such a big media buzz right now that some people want to stand out? I don't see any of the WS BASE guys making a fuzz about whose teaching methods are better, they just fly.

I know I am going to get so much shit for this post but you guys need to dial it back and listen to us OTHER flyers out there. Glen has a grip on reality! Maybe you should recognize that for a start.

[Skwrl 56]

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Why would anyone spend the money on a rating that I am sure will be obsolete once the USPA adopts a rating for wingsuit coaches.

Not that I care (I'm not an instructor nor will I become one, nor do I have any involvement in the PFI program - I don't even own a Phoenix-Fly wingsuit), but why do people keep referencing this boogeyman? USPA made pretty clear that there is very little support for a USPA WSI rating. It ain't going to happen, at least any time soon.

As an aside, I thought many of the people bitching about the PFI thing on this thread hated the idea of a USPA WSI rating, too. You can't win with some folks, I guess - even when you give them what they wanted. (A mandatory program got switched to be non-mandatory because of feedback; the program being USPA-driven got switched to manufacturer-driven because of feedback; the documents being "open source" got switched to being proprietary, etc., etc.) And yet people bitch anyway...

I'm utterly convinced that you could offer free beer and hookers for all and some of you guys would bitch that the beer isn't your favorite brand, wasn't cold enough, or that there aren't enough midget tranny hookers for your needs...

By the way, someone complained that PFI wasn't putting the materials on line, and that this wasn't "in the interest of safety". The original project, which was to make the WSI rating into a USPA rating, resulted in the attached document. It gives lots of information about wingsuit flight instruction, but like much of the SIM, it's written in a dense and hard to follow format. It has been superseded and is no longer part of any proposal, but it still contains information on running first flight courses. As for PFI not disclosing their material for free, why should they? It's their intellectual property and they should be able to do with it as they see fit. If you wanted it to be freely disseminated, you should have supported it being run by the USPA, which doesn't have a commercial interest...

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[RJmoney 0]

If it was about making WS skydiving safer it would be up there. If it was about making money certifying new instructors they would be selling it.

You guys are awful to each other and the sport in general, makes me glad theres only a couple of us in the tundra that ws. We are nice to each other or we don't have anybody to jump with.

word to your mother,
RJ$$
BASE 1117

[DSE 3]

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If it was about making WS skydiving safer it would be up there. If it was about making money certifying new instructors they would be selling it.

You more or less have it spot on.
It's not about making money, which is why it's not being sold.
It's not possible to put the FFC information up there without spending a tremendous amount of time developing context. I'm not interested in investing that kind of time to create situations I cannot control but can be blamed for. Some coaches/instructors actually believe they're responsible for what people do with their words.

Taken out of context, there would likely be a lot of self-taught FFC's or FFC's taught by people that have no instructional background. There is a reason the USPA Instructor's Rating Manual isn't online... money has nothing to do with it.
The 2011/12 USPA SIM has a very similar syllabus to what Skwrl posted, with some updates and cleaned-up information.

It is free.

No one paid anyone to create and write down the information, a fair amount of personal funds and a tremendous amount of time (on the part of several people) went into creating it.
No one was paid for their time/travel/lodging presenting it to the board at three different USPA meetings, no one receives financial benefit at any level from those efforts.
No names are in the SIM, no one (excepting one person who wasn't involved) is claiming credit for writing it, it was done for the benefit of the general wingsuiting community. USPA isn't crediting anyone for having done the work (nor should they).

There are also some updates to water training that USPA paid nothing for, but weren't cheap to produce.